And me.....................

Count me in to tick the yes box............

No more faffing please, due process is complete.

Feel let down and depressed by management's attitude so it'll be a YES here to

As someone who is considering joining FlyBe in the not too distant future, what is wrong with the t&c's? I have to say I do not know the detail of your shift patterns or previous pay deals.

All other reasonable avenues have now been explored, so BALPA lets stop messing about and get the strike ballot out - one more in the YES box from me!

Yes
 

Yes to strike from me too.

In response to the poster who asked what's wrong with Flybe T&C's it's hard to know where to start:

Roster pattern 5x4 sector days on, finish 22.30 Friday night, Sat+Sun off but start work 06.00 Monday, thus unlike an office worker you don't get Friday night because you're working and you don't get Sunday night because you ought to go to bed at 20.00-21.00 to get up at 04.00am on Monday morning for your early shift. Now most of us don't go to bed at 20.00, we go to bed at 22.00 or 23.00 to try and have a half decent weekend and just fly the aeroplanes around on Monday morning with 4-5 hours sleep. I'm not sure that ANY other airline in civilised world has such a brutally short weekend. Wanna go away to visit friends/relatives/take the missus to Paris for a weekend? - forget it the weekend is too short... The resulting fatigue from this relentless rostering practice in the busiest bases causes people to feel utterly burnt out and genuinely fatigued.

Basic pay - For both Captains and F/O's is way below the market rate for other comparable airlines such as Air Berlin/BMIbaby etc - Expect to be earning £35k after becoming SFO and working for 5 years as an airline pilot (including Flight pay) - that's £10k a year less than a train driver starts on... Expect to be paid as a Captain what a good company pays its F/O's - £55k.

Flight duty pay is paid at £1.91 an hour less tax, no sector pay - hasn't changed in years. So if you're a Captain and taxed at 40% and you work an extra three hours doing two extra sectors you'll earn £1.91x3hrs=£5.73-40% tax - about £3 for three hours extra work and two extra sectors - it's way less than most paper rounds pay schoolboys per hour and beyond a joke.

The crew food is utterly appalling and is sourced from suppliers who seem to specialise in almost out of date fat laden muffins, sandwiches with the worst quality ingredients - cold cheap sausage with ketchup and mayonnaise anyone? - or maybe you'd like the egg florentine - 2 day old egg mayonnaise with cheap cheddar stirred into it to add a strange piquancy to the flavour.

As a first job it's obviously better than nothing and the training is genuinely very good and you will fly with some really nice people. The flying is fun by airline standards - a good mix of fairly short routes to keep the interest level high and the skill levels up. Flybe is a company that could be a really good place to be if the management wished to make it so - it's just a shame they don't.

DP

Desk-pilot

Doesn't sound like anything has changed whatsoever since I left after a short stint a few years. Good people to fly with, decent training and almost everything else was rubbish. I voted with my feet. Good luck guys.

Surely the flip-side is that ever other weekend you'll get a long one off when you go from earlies to lates? Or is it more complex than that?

Well, here we go then.

Settling the dispute for the 3 year period in question at the relatively modest levels of improvement needed to pacify a majority of crews would cost what? Another couple of million? An amount entirely within the company's control and one which can be budgeted for accordingly.

Industrial action for an unspecified period of time involving a completely unpredictable level of disruption and damage to the Flybe brand. What cost here? I would wager an amount similar to the volcanic disruption of last year and the longer it goes on, the more militant the workers become and the higher the eventual cost of settlement. Completely out of the company's control.

I used to think we had some very smart people at the top, and they were let down by the managers that run the day to day operation, but now I'm really not so sure.

Regardless what happens here, I'll be at the AGM on 8 September and I intend to see that the big institutional investors get to hear some very direct and frank feedback to the board on how this business actually runs and the risks to future expansion that the directors are taking with their tight-fisted and short-sighted approach to the current operation.

On the bright side, just think what price the shares will be when the company eventually launches our sharesave scheme. Sub £1 anyone?

Who is your BALPA PN? is it still KB? if so there is no chance of a strike she couldn't organise a p**s up in brewery.

CC,

I was under the impression that you'd do a week of earlies then the next week would be lates and so on. So they mix shifts within your working week? Nice!!

Sadly it's an employers market at the moment; I do hope that changes soon for everybody's sake.

CC has it bang on with his excellent posts.

In terms of the people you get to go work with, I'd say this company is hard to beat. But that's partly due now to the fact that everytime I jump into my seat on the flightdeck me and the other guy or gal talk about nothing but the cretins at the top and now middle of this company and how they have systematically and knowingly destroyed the spirit and resolve of it's most valuable assets. That's above FL 150 of course - I wouldn't want anyone to think I'm none standard and call me to Exeter for a school boy bollocking.

I have not met one colleague on the flight deck in my base who isn't going to vote for strike action and actually do it. I really hope it's the same everywhere else.

The management are complete idiots and they have failed in their duty to this company and it's staff. And by god, they are going to get what's coming to them now - off their pilots and then the shareholders. Bye bye Jim. You had your chance, and you've buggered it big time mate.

and everyone, please watch your backs. At least one v.senior management pilot has been heard wanting to sack everyone who voted No in the lead in to this, and I bet there's more. Obviously you can't do that, but I wouldn't want to get him in the sim if I were sticking my neck out on the non-anonymous boards. Added to the summary execution/check-your-six culture we're already got, and you've all the ingredients for a real pleasant summer coming up...

Come on you can do better than that be more specific chap....

I wouldn't put it past this company to be stupid enough to sack around 75% of it's pilot workforce.......:}

Not a bad run for a former BCAL load controller. Time for him to go and take strong love with him!


HA HA HA!!! oh that really is a good one! oooohhh.............but really. You will only ever EVER get 8 days off a month. Unless you have leave. Which must piss this chap right off as we are over paid and under worked as it is according to him.

My last roster was bang on limits for FTL and duty. Genuine feeling of fatigue on last few days (I am young so lasted longer than some) 6 on 2 off 6 on 3 off etc etc min rest the lot! Phoned in 'fatigued' and got sectioned to a mental health facility! well thats how i felt it was handled! read out a dictionary def of fatigued and told there was no way i could be as i didnt fit into the definition!!!!! Oh and it was impossible to be fatigued as the roster was 'legal'!!!! Asked to be sent asap to company doc in brum. They have no choice but to comply, but in a scathing sort of way they arranged it. Oh and said i should hire car!! Fatigued and hire car!!!!!!!!TITS!

FATIGUE is an illegal word in Flybe. It would appear to be gross misconduct to utter it on compant time.

So much for duty of care. Over the last winter I had the misfortune to be stuck abroad on duty due tech (4 times) and Wx (2 times). Some from GLA were far worse off than moi! On all but one of those times, where we happened to be at a flybe base, crewing washed their hands of us! It took the missus back home to find and book a hotel for us. So much for duty of care! they could not have given less of a crap.

Can't wait to be on the picket line! At least it will be summer! But i'd be happy to be on it in the winter! The managment have dug their heads in the sand and really don't think there is an issue, or any bad feeling. Some of the PBMs think the same! nutters! it is staring them right in the face! thats the flying club airline mentality for you. Totally clueless and out of touch.

Jersey145 Your spot on. To quote a certain flight safety manager "Fatigue is NOT a flight safety issue" - Go figure. The more he was questioned the more irrate he became. Definitely a naughty word down in EXT.

Last time I wanted to go fatigued, after a 15 hour day then minimum rest, crewing refused to accept it, said I had to phone duty management pilot, this at 2300!!!!!

Current monthly hours bouncing off the max!!
All for 20+ grand a year less than a similar Easyjet pilot and they get more than 2 days off in a row!!

perhaps he's fatigued :hmm:

As they say "actions speak louder than words" which is why I don't read any of the dribble written by our chief pilot any more. :ugh:

If this happens then it is totally illegal. If anyone notices any irregular sim details and/or false treatment then I think the CAA need to be informed. Monitor closely people.

I know EXT monitor this site, so would like to add food for thought.

After been more than reasonable the pilot work force has now found itself in a position where regardless of personal opinion WE have been left with no other choice but to vote yes to IA! I have no wish to strike however if we vote anything but yes then bye bye scheduling agreement for what its worth, and bye bye to ever seeing a pay rise again!

Come on EXT sort it out before you flush the company down the pan!

Strike is on the cards
 

Did my time in JEA, Exeter folk are bumpkins, but greedy bumpkins. A strike is likely according to my buddies still there. Tired and underpaid seem to be the keywords, and CC echo them. Sort yourselves out, French et al!

I wish you every success with this struggle and you must see this through as the ramifications of your actions will extend beyond flybe. It will send a long overdue message to 'airline managment' in the UK that the pilot workforce is an essential element in any company and should be treated, not preferentially, but with the respect and courtesy afforded to the other executives in the company. It should also make it crystal clear that, as a group, it is no longer prepared to accept exploitative pay and scheduling agreements imposed upon them.

Why any management wants to deliberately and constantly antagonise its (arguably) most valuable asset is beyond me. Stick to your guns!

A bit of devils advocate here, but do you think the management are thinking that with the number of SFO's within, and the number of hungry newbies out there that they are practically bullet proof?

Basically pi22 everyone off, many quit, but many of the SFO's can sense command so decide to stick it out to get some command hours, open the tap for newbies. Rinse and repeat.

Well to be honest, its too late now. The ballot papers will be out soon no doubt and we will have no choice but to vote for a strike (hopefully with a far greater landslide than before). Don't be afraid to do this people, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Once the dates for a strike have been given, the company will no doubt trot out some kind of "we don't negotiate with terrorists" line and start playing with the media. We shall counter attack with the plethora of ammunition in our arsenal... The company will then capitulate at the 11th hour (it probably never planned to allow a strike to happen in the first place).

Then where will that leave us, yes we will have got what we wanted but can you imagine the atmosphere after that? Oh what a wonderful place it will be to work then!

Irreversible damage has already been done regardless of the final settlement and as has been said before... what a bloody shame...

It is a shame. Flybe could be so much better.

But just think what it'll feel like to wipe the smug look off the faces of that idiot teenage COO(ck) and the beardy pilot hating loadie with huge egos and massive delusions of grandeur.

After all, they got to where they are on the back of your low salaries. It's time they started to repay the 'favour'.

Don't forget that any damage done to Flybe's reputation, ability and finances is not your fault. The management are in charge, allegedly. They lead the airline down this path and it is up to them to reverse it. End of.

Stick together lads and lasses, it's your last chance.

i dont think there are Many sfo waiting for commands. Why get a command on the dash if you can get jet time on the 195 and get a better job somewhere else when the doors start to open? Money? Not really that great on the dash, plus the company pays your "loyalty" all this years to start on pay scale 1 when you move seats!
Great!!!!, don't you just love it?

I agree, most SFO's are looking to stay on the jet then leave, most of the new skippers have just upgraded for the payrise and are also looking to escape. A few have gone for a command rather than the jet as there is no bond.

Just to play devil's advocate, and being very pedantic, but the consequences of fatigue may be a flight safety issue, but not being fatigued itself. If you fly when fatigued and nothing happens then there is no flight safety issue, but if you fly when fatigued, cock up and then site fatigue as the issue then you're in the wrong.

So, simple, don't fly when you're fatigued!

Snigs you are right and I agree but it was the attitude that surprised me. Safety is king and if there is any hint that the rostering of crew may increase risk then it's a problem more than worthy of the attention of the flight safety department especially after the colgan tragedy. Fatigue is a tricky thing to put your finger on but it exists and is a threat to aviation. Tiredness is the real threat with the current flybe rostering practices. Constantly changing shift patterns can leave for the odd day where you are suitably below par and in the dash this is never a good thing ;)

Easyjet, Ryanair and BA etc all have much better patterns than Flybe.

Does anybody know if balpa have sent out, or about to send out any IA ballots? And how long after the ballot can go on IA?

Nothing so far, then the timescale (assuming similar to BACC debacle) is 3-4weeks for balloting then 28days to name dates then min 7 days notice I believe

Stand up for your rights!

This nonsense of "the schedule is sound, you cannot possibly be fatigued, the schedule complied with Subpart Q" is starting to scare me. As if we are alert and fully capable of handling situations whereever we find ourselves in the permitted operational span of Subpart Q.

Whenever a pilot in Europe has the opportunity to go on strike motivated by the FTL's, he/she should, the message has to be driven through. FTL's are limitations and not goals. For a schedule to be laid down according to Subpart Q, a fatigue monitoring programme has to be established for it to be safe. The public needs to be enlightened.

Have a look at this, an excellent and easy to understand summary. Show all your friends:

Good luck everyone in FlyBe and elsewhere fighting this fight. We need to be united, not only within our airlines but across aswell! Head down and go for it!

LnS

Well said dp exactly pionts out exactly how sh..e our t and c really is !!! its a total total farce !!

Do you know CC , I 100% agree with every sentence ,word and letter you said . I'm pretty sure most people at my base think the same . If we dont follow this through to the end , we are finished and our time at flybe (for me anyway) must come to an end !! Time to move on even it means not flying anymore
We talk about strike at Flybe ??? !! I honestly think the industry as a whole needs to go on strike as a whole . It has become (the best way i can describe it ) is diseased and infected !!!!!!!! Its not a career or a profession anymore ................we get laughed at !!!!!!

Whats happening at Flybe is the tip of the proverbial iceberg

Very very very sad times for all pilots

Been to the Pub .........SW?

Check your spam folders for the latest Balpa dispatch - dated 08.06 (my copy was in there).
Enlightening reading

I agree with WW,

Regional bases, home life is still more than limited when rostered 5 or 6 lates straight!
6 day blocks are becoming more and more regular, often with just 2 days off.

pilot numbers are at breaking point, roters are usaully in high 80`s and 90`s (except for a few lucky ones), even part time guys are maxed out.
There will be no redundancies, aircraft may be going, but so too are crew members. many just waiting in the wings for a nice hello from Easyjet or BA.
recruitment will be in full flow soon, courses already running!

current crews are maxed out and shattered.
fed up with manahement spin and crewing taking the p155!!
moral at an all time low.
a quick shout round the crew rooms gets a chorus of agreements when IA is mentioned.

Time for Flybe to sort themselves out and start acting like the proper airline that they want to be and less like a minor regional prop outfit!!

:ugh::ugh:

I don't know why I bother reading the missives that come out from the company anymore. Because they just make even more upset than I am at the moment with this bloody company.

If Jim thinks giving us a proper weekend off with our loved ones is going to kill the 'regional business model' then he should see what having all of his pilots walking out on strike will do it, along with the irreparable damage to staff relations and lasting damage to the brand and customer loyalty.

Just bonkers.