Albertoli,

I like your assumptions! You have a great talent to assume stuff about me and then argue to me that your assumptions are correct. Amazing stuff.

I wrote it before, and I'll write it again. I started the command assessment process last year, at 3004 factored hours. I have now passed it all. I worked for a long while at a base where you are limited by duty hours, not block hours - so my annual hours are around 700 to 750.

I wonder where you gained your education to make such a guess? My salary will be £61,913, rising to £68,792. Sorry to bore you with the facts.

Well I can think of 5 in the UK.

Just because I accepted the job offer at easyJet, doesn't mean I'm not right to vote no if I think the deal is poor, compared to the rest of the market.

Sorry, EASYME, total Bull..t!

There are a lot of german pilots paying tax since years (as I do)! I mentioned this already that we pay now more tax than before.
Thinking of a bigger picture, compared to you, I am not concerned about the percentage ONLY. I fear future complications by making EZY management stronger NOW!
The example of the LTU paydeal should make it transparent, that EZY management is not reflecting the superb profit of this year to it´s pilots!

Ok with me, if you like that deal. I do not!


Take your pay raise and be happy! And observe the strategical change of employment at EZY!

Kraut,

First of all, I am sorry to forget about your 5% tax you paid - I stand corrected completely.

I still don't know why you are hanging on to the LTU deal. It only makes the deal look better for the german bases!

Like you, I am looking at the big picture and I am only suggesting you should keep your banners in the closet for a while, the bases aren't split up by this deal.
As soon as the company offers local RPI+0.7% I suggest you get them out. And it might suprise you, but I will get them out as well, even though the london bases will probably be better of through it. Things like this will hurt our position and not the pay increase offered.

And in terms of sharing in the profits of the company - We are employees and therefore paid for the job we do. If the company is making losses you would probably still demand your payrise because other companies are offering them and you had nothing to do with the losses the company has made.
Market conditions are probably the biggest factor in how large our payrise is going to be and with the offer for unpaid leave and Indigo I think you know yourself were we are.

So if your banners said - I want a fair deal! I suggest you change them to :I want my local contract and get the same payrise as everyone else!

Or if you want to look at the bigger picture put them away and vote yes.

Easyme - Im sorry, but are you on one side saying that you think voting yes for this "deal" is the way to go, and then on the other hand you are saying "Do I think we should split the pilot community up? definitely not. I think we should all be unionized and have one negotiating team for the whole community." ?? Then you are also claiming that "and certainly not bad enough (the pay deal. my remark) to strike over".

I think, and its just a thought, a quite scary one too, that this way of looking at our situation is exactly what will eventually get us down on our knees and take away the last bit of respect that we, ourselves, and our industry leaders have left for us. This is NOT about the 4% or 5% or whatever would be negotiated at this stage. It is about the arrogance and total lack of respect that our company has showed towards us and BALPA in the past 6 months. Im talking about how the MAD base contracts has been dealt with, all the problems our colleagues are still facing in MXP and ORY, years after the bases have been opened. Im talking about the use, or should I say abuse of the recent crew survey?

I truly believe that now is the time to say no. Now is the battle a lot of people are referring to as "keep the powder dry for the real battle". If not now, then you can keep that powder dry for as long as you´d like, because there will be no more battles to fight.

Local contracts will follow, splitting up the union making it impossible to negotiate ANYTHING! Random rostering WILL follow. We have a CEO who have made statements along the line of "There must be other ways of doing this" ie other ways to roster us. Before someone says "Yea, but if that happens THEN my powder will be dry for a battle" - Sorry....then it will be too late. We will have local contracts and a weaker union. Once the "continent" is split into local bases it will be a piece of cake to push T&Cs down to lows never seen before in a British (ex British by then) company.
Based in The UK? Watch as they will start over-crewing continental bases and then operating the "extra" crew in to the UK bases, doing your job, for less money, less pension (no pension??), no sick pay, no loss of licence etc etc. Make people redundant on UK contracts? The other base/company can operate the routes instead. Each base/country will be a seperate company so the UK employment laws are worth zero for us and so will BALPA be. They can not negotiate for these new "companies".

Good luck to all of us.

I followed the advice from somebody that posted on the BALPA site and that is to disregard the emotional issues like going on strike, but only looked at the deal on the table.

I simply think that that deal is a bad one, so I voted no.
For some continental bases it's ok if you purely look at inflation, but don't forget the extra bills facing us with regards to tax, social security and local contracts. For the UK bases it is also a lousy deal as taxes and social security stay the same, but inflation is going through the roof.

Absolutely right!

If the company was making a loss and managers were not handing themselves a £900K bonus, the I agree with your statement. It's not my goal to bankrupt the company, it's my belief that we should be rewarded for the very hard work we do and should participate in the success of the company!

Right Way Up

I do not know where you get the impression that I am wound up by easyjet pay - I can assure you I am not.

easyme

Well said!

Hundredpercentpleae

Ok which 5 airlines is it that you could have earned more than the easy captain's pay (68K as you say) and had a command in 4+ years of joining especially given your limited experience level?

Vote how you like, it is your choice. It is often the case that people accept a job with a company and once they are in they moan about their T&Cs.

Kraut

You may have been paying taxes in Germany but it was very little compared to the UK guys. Bottom line is that given the current tax situation, the German pilots got paid more than their UK counterparts for doing the same job.

I never said something different!
What do you think, the waiting list to Germany was that long?? Just because of Germany!?
Now, I guess, the waiting list to Germany is much shorter.
Which is ok, gives it the chance for guys to go to Germany for lifestyle only.

Possibly because of the amount of times you have posted on this thread about a company you don't work for.:rolleyes:

If this is what you think, then I am afraid you have not understood the problem we have. After all, you don't work for easyJet so everything you hear is second hand (your mate).

I think most of us are generally satisfied with the t&c's. After all this is partly why I joined. However I would say that your argument about knowing what we signed for is flawed, as one can only be certain of what it is like to work for a certain company by experiencing it first hand. Everything you hear from someone else, employee or company, is strongly biased. Now, I am not saying I am disatisfied to work for easyJet, before you jump to conclusions as you usually do. Indeed I enjoy my job, but this is not to say I also believe we deserve more recognition from management. Without the goodwill we show everyday not a single eJ aircraft would depart on time. If our current management continues to believe we only deserve a mere pat on the back, and a dismal pay rise, if our ops director thinks he can get away with being condescending and confrontational with our representatives, then one day the goodwill will be gone, and the network will grind to a screeching halt.

Your mate could also tell you that the current pay deal is only slightly better than the previous one which was strongly rejected. I am not going to vote yes to a deal which is essentially the same as the one I voted against a few months previously. And if this causes us to have ballot for IA so be it. I refuse to betray myself and what I think is right, sorry.

I could count on the fingers of somebody with no hands the number of times I've seen an ezy depart on time.

67% departed within 15mn of etd this morning. Room for improvement perhaps, but cetainly not as bad as you seem to think.

This is only a guess, but even that (pisspoor) figure is more than likely sustained by a handful of bases, masking the fact that others are about as punctual as the trains.

I wonder how long I'd last if I used the same criteria to time my arrival to the crew room.

Nope sorry to dissapoint you caudillo, this a network average, and it is not a guess. Can you tell why is this figure piss poor?

If you have nothing more meaningful to say on this topic other than that I suggest you stop waisting your time and mine.

Whats all this rubbish about goodwill? You pilots ought to come down from the clouds sometimes and then you would realise that you are not doing the company a big favour by turning up for work. In fact you might like to read your contract of employment and find out what the company expects from you as part of your normal duties.
As someone else has already stated, salaries are generally dictated by market forces relating to in this case the employment of pilots. If I were voting I would take this into consideration before rejecting the offer out of hand

Go and help Santa to prepare xmas!:zzz:

Obviously you are not a pilot and you don't realize that most of us turn up at least 20 minutes early every day in order to have adequate time to do our pre-flight preparations such as getting all the paperwork (flight plans, weather, NOTAM's etc) and reviewing it. The reason that most airlines don't schedule this working time is because they would otherwise run into problems with maximum duty hours, something you (baggage loader/dispatcher/COO/SLF) don't have to worry about.

Well...you are not voting, because you are not a pilot. :rolleyes: :p

Obviously you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

I will be nice by trying to explain to you what we mean by goodwill. One simple example among others. We are required to report for duty one hour before ETD. Experience shows this simply not enough to check in, get the paperwork, check weather NOTAMS, NTC's, brief ourselves and CC, walk to the aircraft, battle through security, do all our preflight checks, and go. In fact if we all turned up at ETD-1, as the book says, not a single flight would depart on time. This is why I personnaly turn up at least at ETD-1hr15 or even -1hr20. Needless to say I am not paid for these extra minutes, nor will these minutes count towards my duty time. This is what I mean by "goodwill". We could also give up trying to improve slots, negotiate direct routings with ATC, or chase up a missing fuel truck or caterer. There are many examples of how our "goodwill" enables the company to maintain a decent-ish schedule.

So you see, our job involves slighly more than just turning up for work as you say. I wouldn't lecture you on how to do your job (whatever it is), so please refrain from lecturing us. Thanks.

Bokkenrijder,

you are quicker than me!

cheers!:ok:

ZBman
 

Actually Kraut was the quickest and his reply is even better because: "never argue with a fool. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience."

;)

Still in the clouds then!!?

.......AND there is ALWAYS something that is late, missing, expired (slots, flightplans) etc etc...Lets try this - Call NMC everytime this happens...ie 800+ calls a day, then see what the result will be. :ok: Or maybe when pilots are down in the hold trying to help find a bag or two that is on-board, that should not be there, to try to make the slot....yes - have seen it several times....
Yes, we are hired and paid to fly the routes and are expected to help out with getting the job done on time etc...But there is alot of goodwill going on that we could stop with without risking to breach our employment contracts. Most of us are still willing to do this, but for how long?

Zbman what I meant was that I was making a guess, rather than the figures being guesswork.

Being an average, the contribution of the constituent bases and rotations is impossible to discern from the figure. I believe that there are some bases that shore this figure up through consistent punctuality, whilst many others drag it down.

You ask why I think it's pisspoor?

Because the schedule is unrealistic, that's why. You can make on time departure 90%+ assuming nothing too out of the ordinary. Much in the same vein as performance figures, the timetabling simply has to reflect the realities of the operation rather than an idealised model.

I agree with what you say. 25 mn for a turnaround in CIA, well, let me see...:hmm:. This is not to say we don't work damn hard to adhere as much as we can to the schedule, that's why I took the comment "pisspoor" a little personnaly.
We do our best you know...

Besides LTU, DABA, now also LUFTHANSA goes on strike.

Could it be that there is a "historical mentality change" between the UK and Germany?

Long time ago, there were more strikes in the UK (before M. Thatcher) than in Germany.
Nowadays it looks totally different! Interesting times!:)


http://www.abcmoney.co.uk/news/282007125054.htm

Well, well...
the thing is that if you go on strike, you will damage Easyjet's reputation :E
It's a low cost you know. Lufthansa is a totaly different structure than Easyjet, they can afford strikes... not Easyjet.


Zbman, you are jocking ? Does it take you 25 minutes to prepare the FMS to go back to your next destination ? Normally it takes less than 10 minutes to get the aircraft completely ready (Atis, FMS, clearance, etc).
25 min turnaround is hard for a 319, but hard for cabin crew !!!... not for pilots :=

Guillaume.

What brilliant insight!
 

hehe mate :D On behalf of the international ppruners I would like to take the opportunity to thank you for that piece of insight! Maybe now we can finally make those 25 min turnarounds. All we need to do is train our crew to program that FMS faster. Maybe one pilot could listen to the ATIS while the other one programs? ...are you on line yet? Good luck when you get there :ok: [Insert sarcasm as needed]

yes honney, I am in line.

But I am not at Easyjet, so it means that I fly only in quiet airspaces, in sunny blue sky only, with no wind (se posts of zbman above :}) and I have less bits to do during my turnaround.
My god, you have so many things to do in order to get the a/c ready during your turnaround that you would need at least 1 hour to do it !! 25 minutes is not enough for you isnt it ?

------> go on strike then ! :ok:

nuageblanc
 

Great! All those wannabee people who are not in EZY, but all know better how to vote regarding our pay deals and how to program the FM(G)S.

Lemme guess... Are you related to albertoli? :rolleyes:

Nuageblanc, perhaps you noticed that Zbman picked CIA as an example of somewhere he thought 25 minutes is unrealisitic. That might suggest to you in one of your more lucid moments that certain airports bring certain difficulties.

As I'm sure you're aware, not everything depends on pilot performance. On turnarounds it's rarely if ever a limiting factor.

So you mention cabin crew, well you can't take off if they're not ready, neither can you land. By the same token, even if the fms is programmed to fly you where you're going upside down, if they're not ready, neither can you board passengers. Besides, cabin crew are also rarely if ever the source of delays. If anybody has a problem, be it the cabin crew, the fueller, the ramp staff, the dispatcher, the loaders, the disabled passenger, the people in ops, the ATC, the guy trying to push back behind you or even god forbid, the pilots - then that will eat into your turnaround time.

Clearly naugeblanc or whatever the **** he is called needs to do the FMS set up so quick so so that the Captain who babysits him can change his nappy!

I sincerley hope that I never have the displeasure of sharing a flight deck with this little s***.

He clearly knows nothing and has no experience to draw in whatsoever, apart from being a whizz on the FMS of course!

Now for the last time if you are not in EasyJet, you are not in a position to comment, just as I cannot comment on your operation so carry on playing with your blocks and leave the Easy disscussion to the Easy people, or at least to those with a measure of experience in the industry - you should really try listening to some people on here you may actually learn something!

Now, must try this ignore function everyone is talking about!:ok:

2 squall line...
 

Love that sugar, yes, you're in line of sight alright :p

live 2 fly 2 live

Thanks nuage blanc, you have just shown everyone that the only place you fly a CRJ is in your head. Given your ignorance and total lack of knowledge of operational matters involved in aircraft operations, I'm not even sure you could fly one in flight simulator.

Please leave the discussion to professionals.

:} oh yes, zbman you are right (once again !) , 25' is not enough to prepare the aircraft. everybody is wanabee, everybody flies at flight simimualtor ..
around 200 Easyjet aircraft are doing 25 minutes turnaround every day anyway (you are not the only one to be superman, I am sorry to say ).

Just relax J.M. !! Andy Harrisson will laught at you ;)

...where to start?
 

I was about to write a reply explaining the process of a turnaround and the scheduled block times versus actual block times and assigned turnaround times in easyJet and airlines in general. Also I thought about summing up as many external factors affecting OTP as I could to make the picture more clear...

Then decided not too, because I have neither time nor patience to try and teach you what you what you will eventually learn on line, Nuageblanc.

Sorry for being condescending but these are the facts.

As for easyJet not being able to afford a strike, well: easyJet is making !!!!!loads of money. LH, BA, and AF etc. still have the long haul to justify their existence (ok, I'm painting a dark picture here:8). Aviation is changing. What will happen when the LoCo "plague" spreads to long haul? ...you do the math!

From a pilots point of view I think it's a matter of getting what we can now, as the market is in our favor. It changes fast when it does!

Not everyone, you are right... but you definitely are. You seem to ignore facts that even a CPL student would consider self-evident.

You seem to think that the only thing affecting a turnaround is FMS loading.
You seem to ignore totally the fact that some airfields are more congested than others.
You seem to be oblivious to the fact that sometimes fuel or luggage doesn't turn up, that sometimes passengers go missing, that baggage belts break down etc...
Ever heard of slots? Ever been in BCN in summer? If you had you would understand that 25 mn, or 30 mn or even 45 mn on some occasions is not enough.

You have absolutely no clue whatsoever what an aircraft turnaround involves. I can't believe a serious airline would let you anywhere near one of it's aircraft.

a simimualtor ?! Is this some kind of sex toy :confused:. Suit yourself mate! :}

Nuageblanc, I think you are a little confused. Very entertaining reading, please continue.

Why is it that you care so much about what's going on in easyJet, now that you fly for a "proper" albeit imaginary airline? Oh, and would you please refresh my memory, as you seem to know me, but I certainly can't remember someone called Guillaume pretending to fly for Britair.

SmokeAndNoise is right, I shouldn't waste my time with you but I must admit I find it quite entertaining to see how far you actually go in showing all of us that the likeliness of you being an airline pilot is about as remote as making a successful 25 min turnaround in BCN these days. ie, zero.

absolutely true. The company has huge cash reserves. Which makes me say that they could indeed "afford" a strike with no problem. Cor's bonus could take a blow though...

My feeling exactly. Share price is back up, no more excuses.

naugeblanc: Why don't you just **** off to somewhere else??

Create a forum for your own fantasy airline and get out of a forum for EZY people. You stated you don't work for EZY so you have nothing to do here, and you clearly knows nothing about what is going on anywhere, be it EZY, the cockpits or the industry in general.

You are waste of space !!!

Zbman, there are not a lot of guys having flown for monarch and then easyjet and being never ever happy :{

Sorry, but because the refueling takes long sometimes, because there are 2 or 3 missing pax stuck in the airport security screening, because there is sometimes an ATC slot due to congestions, because we have to take the hold at some arrivals, beacuse of that you are claiming more monney, and threatening your managers of a strike ? :}:}
May I remind you that in all airlines we have the same problems at the airport (slots, missing fluel, slow loading, etc, etc). It is the same at Easyjet, at ryanair, at air france, at Lufthansa, at monarch, everywhere ! and I dont really see why the flight deck crew are claiming more monney for those reasons that we cant really do anything about as a pilot !

Instead of showing yourself egocentric, and pathetic you should at least recognise that the most challenging part of a 25 minutes turnaround is performed by your cabin crew who are disembarking your 150 pax ish, cleaning the disgusting cabin, and boarding another 150 pax with all safety measures.

What a tw*t

I would even go the other way and guess that a successful LoCo is in a better position to afford a strike than a traditional flag carrier. Most LoCo's make profit after profit, while the more established airlines struggle.

The fact is unfortunately that most pilots in those flag carrier actually have pride and self esteem and will therefore fight to improve their lives. Or at least they are willing to fight to stop the rot that is taking place in this industry.

On the other hand, most LoCo pilots are gullible sheep that are easily led to the slaughterhouse. Working harder, paying for their type rating, getting a !!!!ty pension, getting fed crappy crew meals, enduring the stressful turnarounds day after day while the companies are raking in the cash.

LoCo pilots are very good in procrastinating, "keeping their powder dry for the next battle," or instead prefer to complain about trivial things. Very few pilots for LoCo's come from established airlines that are willing to fight for a well balanced life with regards to fatigue, work, money and health.
Instead they are the blue collar workers of aviation: give em enough dough for a flat screen TV, feed them on fish and chips and they are fat, dumb and sort of happy.

Another reason for the rot in the LoCo industry is that many pilots come from small outfits that have gone bankrupt at one time or another, something which has left most of them traumatized and afraid to fight for good terms and conditions. They are so naive that they believe that by asking for a fair remuneration, they are going to bankrupt the company. :ugh:

The company knows this and is doing a very good job at dividing and conquering and hiring the right people. While in the mean time, the sweatshop managers are awarding themselves bonus after bonus, believing they are worth it and not the least bit concerned about bankrupting the company...

And BALPA? Their are just reacting (usually too late) to what they are observing. Be it the DDO's, the fatigue 'training,' the fatigue training compensation/sector pay, the reserve period, the current pay deal. Giant loopholes everywhere, just waiting for the company to exploit. A total lack of foresight... :{

I don't know you sir, but somehow you know me... However if you really knew who I am you never say I am never happy. In fact at the moment, I am quite satisfied. I've got the base I want, and I love my job, and the people I work with. I joined on the assumption that the new management was a bit more pilot-friendly than the previous one, and I must say I am terribly disappointed. I am worried that with their attitude, our conditions could change drasticaly for the worst once we get a new contract. The only thing they will have difficulty reducing is our pay. This is why we NEED to secure the best pay deal now. Contrary to your belief, I am not thinking just about me. I have a young family you see, and my guess is that with the new contracts we can all kiss goodbye to fixed pattern rostering. This is why we must show resolve NOW. Then we stand a better chance. If we wait we will be screwed. I want to still be able to plan my life and take care of my family. Maybe, just maybe, you'll grow up and then you'll understand.

No, you haven't understood a single word of all the different posts here. I'm getting worried about your IQ at this stage, and to imagine you might be flying my family somewhere in the future sends chills along my spine. Even though I think you have never flown a CRJ let alone a Cessna, I will try not to fly Britair just to be safe.:E

see above. Struggling with the english language are we?

That's the only sensible words that have come out from your cheeky little mouth so far. I will add that I have never, ever been delayed due to our cabin crew not being ready. But if you think the cabin is the only limiting factor affecting a turnaround then you are seriously mistaken my friend.

I understand better your limited knowledge of our job, now. My guess is that you are now line checked... as Cabin Crew! Congratulations!

I will now stop replying to your nonsense.