Easyryder and ZeBedie.

Is calling colleagues, Moron, Parasite and comments "join and you can find out" a good way to try and get people to join the union.
Maybe if the person in question was to know how shafted he may become he would join.

Just a thought.

Absolutely agree, calling people names will get ya nowhere. Yes some (not many i know these days), decide not to join BALPA, its their call. But they will get NO support during any action, their choice, calling them names hardly will make them feel welcome.....
Anyhow, my ex Spotty M friends, like BYMONEK, i wish you well.

EGGW :D

ZeBedie & Easyrider:
When I refered to "considering my position" it was with regard to BALPA membership and not to my career.
Anyway, you have helped in your own way:hmm:
My thanks to the more constructive contributors:ok:

We'll be nice to him if he joins.

185,

I apologise for my rant - just having a bad day i guess. :\

Hope you join up, most members arent raving lunatics like moi!

What? You've found a new excuse to save your membership fee?

So far, only 1 offer from the CC, and eventually only 1 "counter offer" from the management, neither of which would seem to be realistic. There is a lot more talking to be done yet and that will no doubt take a lot of time, which is a well established Co. ploy to avoid paying out in Aprils pay packet. You all seem to be getting hot and bothered before the final deal is on the table!

I believe the pay claim presented by the CC was perfectly reasonable. All it does is bring us back into the same ballpark as MYT, TFly, F Choice etc. What is unrealistic about that?

Hot and Bothered
 

People should get hot and bothered before the final offer, its only way the company will put something sensible on the table.
Traditionally the company has stalled the talks and given poor pay increases, which is why, we are now lagging behind others. Its time that the likes of TJ, PB and RS were shown, that our pay and conditions need to be inline with other operators.
The company has always made good money, last year was exceptionally good, we all worked hard and continue to work hard. :D
I for one will no be extending my FTL, working a day off or answering my phone before my STBY, unless we are fairly paid with good working conditions. :D
Its no good waiting for the summer season to end before we take action, Do it now, over the busy period! :ok:
I've seen this companies conditions deteriorate ever the years, lets hope this CC does give anything away. :=

Correct me if I am wrong, but those companies also give share options, better staff travel and no positioning after a long duty. They also used to lagg behind our pay scale, not any more. I think if you look at the total package we offer new entrants, its very poor in comparison. Not only do we have to protect the pilots that have been here a long time, but we need to help our younger friends continue to enjoy good pay conditions in the future.

185lbs. Now I've calmed down, I apologise for using the word "parasite". I would not have said that to your face, so I don't feel comfortable saying it anonymously either.

However, I still maintain that any Monarch pilot not in BALPA at the moment is taking something he's not paid for. Just ask yourself where your prospects would be heading without a strong BALPA and whether your pay would be even as "good" as it is now, without the efforts of BALPA members in Monarch over the past 40 years.

querty, we believe our claim is fair TJ does not, TJ believes his offer fair we do not. It appears to me that is a pretty healthy way to start the negotiations.

Ever bought a second hand car?

Lets leave it to the CC to progress our claim, this bloodletting on a public forum is pointless.

As a BALPA member the CC have my full support.

Virgin T,

Are you saying that trying to bring our T&C's upto industry standard forms an over the top claim?

Why do you think our poor salary and T&C's should be kept secret? Surely the world should understand what the fight is about.

I fully support our CC and certainly don't expect them to meet TJ "in the middle".

185Lbs

You say that you are "considering you position...in relation to BALPA membership". Given that you are seeking information from us, the fee paying members, perhaps you would share what elements of joining you are still considering, so we are better able to decide what we feel we would like to share with you, other than (unintentionally) the benefits of our union fees.

You implied that you have some moral objection to unionised actions when you stated that “Personally, I just fundamentally disagree with the principle. I suppose it's just not right” however that seems somewhat at odds to the following post that you made on another thread back in Oct 05 entitled “Balpa”.

“I believe that they (BALPA) have been a big help to crews and potential crews at Monarch as they have been negotiating on their behalf. So it's not all BA. I'm off to an airline soon and not sure if it's worth the 1%. I think i'll sit with the IPA”

So Which is it? do you "fundamentally disagree" with unionised action despite your membership of the IPA, or do you still think that it's "not worth the 1%" but are quite happy to ask us to pay it on your behalf and seek the information via PPRUNE?

MON 321,

Thats exactly what i meant to write, instead of the rant above!

Well put :ok:

My position regarding striking is as previously stated. I have seen nothing here to persuade me to change my view. I have made an agreement with someone and I am honour bound to it.
I made my position clear and was hoping that some of my colleagues who feel differently might chip in and enable us all to have a valuable discussion.
I realise that some people believe that those pilots who are not members of BALPA are getting a free ride and I understand that point of view. Also, I appreciated the comment that with membership would come a chance for me to have a voice and vote against a strike if that is what I chose to do.
I asked for the information on the offer as I was considering joining BALPA. Unfortunately it has been met, mostly, with derisory comments.
I see no conflict with my stated position regarding a strike and my previous comments regarding the 1% price of BALPA membership. I have never claimed to disagree with 'unionised action' although I do 'fundamentally disagree' with strike action.
I have been a member of the IPA for many years and feel that they give a very good service. Their ability to do so relies on membership which could be undermined by 'bully boy' behaviour experienced in some quarters which persuades previously loyal members to join BALPA.
My previous thread which has been chopped up and quoted in selected parts to suit MON321's purpose was as follows:
It was in response to this question:
The thread goes onto discuss the various merits of BALPA and the IPA and the relative costs. That hopefully gives context to my reply.
Presently, I’m not convinced that BALPA membership is worth 1% of my salary. Many of the gentlemen I fly with have been members and have left due to disillusionment with either BALPA or the CC over the years, and others are themselves not members.
At least these pages have shown me why they don't post on here - I was correct to deploy my hard hat!
It seems that those who have the ability to discuss without dissolving into playground antics such as name calling and comments that sound very much like “you're not in our gang” and “it’s my ball, you’re not playing” don’t post here. Consequently I’m taking a moratorium and offer my appologies to “Touchin’ Down” for our hijacking of his thread.

185lbs....
 

Perhaps if you approached your CC members, they could accurately fill you in on the latest info without you having to trawl for it here.

Also, they could tell you about the tax rebate you are now entitled to as a BALPA member, making the membership significantly cheaper and a lot more useful than the IPA in my opinion.

.
 

i think things are getting out of focus here .... this is about the poor MON T&C's and whats NOT being done by management to redress this .... not who is in which union or which union (or not) represents value for money. if you want to have a debate about BALPA/IPA/ISA/BNP start another thread !

this is about unity between the pilot workforce, and about taking back some of the ground which has been lost over the years and i am sure everyone is behind the CC, whether or not they are a member of any union !

whats being lost here, and i'm sure management are chuckling their heads off, is that we are being treated like uneducated 'resources' who love bending over and 'taking one for the company' ... dont get me wrong, as long as i feel that i'm being properly remunerated, looked after and treated well i dont mind going the extra mile. however, when my take home pay is near the bottom of the league table, where even friends with other operators like Jet 2 or Astraeus are taking home more than me and where management are trying to further erode my quality of life .... i get a little pi$$ed off ... dare i say militant ???

i know how the negotiation process works, but i would like to see more pressure put on management to come up with a realistic package sooner rather than later. i'm sure they have done their home and have figured out how much a days strike would cost them in terms of revenue, poor publicity and humiliation .... they are not holding any aces .... and what we must remember is that we are not asking for anything over the top .... merely to pull ourselves up the ladder to somewhere near where we were a few years ago ..... before we started 'taking one for the company' .... and while we were pulling up our pants MYT, TFLY, FCA, TCX et al left us in the dust !

185Lbs

I in no way tried to bully you, I simply asked you to clarify your position for the information of the fee paying members from whom you seek information. You fulfilled that request when you once again stated"I’m not convinced that BALPA membership is worth 1% of my salary." What I don't understand is how knowing what the offer from the co. is will change the issues that you have repeatedly stated as your reasons for not joining, namely the charges and your fundamental objection to striking? Please either enlighten me or just admit that you were trying to freeload.

You've made it clear that you're not going to join and that's fine, but then you don't need to know anything else regarding the pay negotiations as you will have no vote and no control, so don't ask.

Just to point out to 185lbs the membership to BALPA for new joiners has a 50% reduction in year one and 25% reduction in year two. So its not 1% of your gross salary, it is only 0.5% year 1 and 0.75% year two of gross salary.

...of which a large chunk is off-settable against tax anyway.

I used to have a similar attitude to BALPA membership as 185lbs.
Since the introduction of the tax offset and BALPA's seccessful negotiation of FREA's, I don't think you can really use that as a good reason not to join.

I also didn't think we had a good company council a few years ago, and so I thought my money would have been wasted. That again is not an argument anymore as we now have an extremely knowledgable and robust council who certainly mean business. (The sooner management realise this, the better IMHO!)

It is for those reasons I joined, and also why membership figures have continued to climb to what is probably an all time high.

185lbs of ballast - You are your own person who is more than capable of making your own judgments and choices and not someone I suspect that would take much notice of some of the rather silly comments that have come your way here by one or two people.
All I would say to you is this:
What is about to develop over the next few weeks is as relevant to you (as a non-member of BALPA) as it is to me (as a member of BALPA).
I understand and somewhat agree with your thoughts regarding you signing a contract of work and the feelings you have regarding strike action which you feel is breaking the t&c's of that contract. I would put this to you though... Do you not think that this loyalty and commitment should also be returned to you by the management? As you may or may not have understood, it is that very contract you signed under good faith that the COMPANY are now trying renege on...!

Do you think the Company shares your same guilt about changing the terms of that contract? I'm sure you know the answer to that!

Personally, I prefer to throw my support behind my CC and colleagues and have a say as to what happens, instead of merely sitting on the side lines. That support, if you chose to lend it, would cost you less than an outbound sector to Tenerife in allowances a month! Besides, if you felt in 12months time that you still were unhappy, you would have helped the cause in a particularly important time for us all, and you can resign from BALPA at any point.

Just trying to add a bit of balance here....:ok:

...the choice of course is yours.

Best rgds

TM&S

Very well put teamilk&sugar, pressure has to be put on management to stop them just changing the contract signed by individuals. It is a two way agreement which would be honoured by by the individual if management valued and respected there staff. Management also decided to only do any negotiations with the unions and not individuals or splinter groups, to simplify their task running the company many moons ago.

185lbs
Wait till you see what happens when you cross the picket line, as you will be required to do as a non-member of BALPA.

"Wait till you see what happens when you cross the picket line, as you will be required to do as a non-member of BALPA."

Whoops please do elaborate.

I don't think it needs elaboration. If you're struggling with the concept I suggest you google Quantas, TWA or PanAm pilot strikes (amongst others). Include 'scab' in your search keywords.

P.S.

Before anyone gets on their high horse....

All I am suggesting is that emotions will be running on overdrive during a strike and history tells us that these emotions take a long time to simmer down. For many, the actions of others are never forgotten.

Of course, when the shoe is on the other foot, just how many BALPA members volunteered for the Argentina A300 contract, many years ago, when there was industrial action within the pilot workforce?

Whoops
 

Sorry to say it but I don't think your posts will be forgotten whoops.

This is a time for all to stay calm and together. This ranting will only divide.
You have to remember, even those not in the union can help by going sick, or working to rule. Just because they are not members doesn't exclude them from taking some form of action. And frankly threatening people is not going to encourage anyone to join a union. :=

If the union is strong, and gets results either by action or negotiation, then you will see very high membership. :D

The only way to encourage people to be a part is by talking, not cyber abusing. This forum is a great place for discussion, we have to listen to all points of view, even if you disagree.:ok:

We Are all strong TOGETHER, its the only way the likes of TJ, PB and RS are going to take notice.:D

I am not threatening anyone; just pointing out to 185lbs what history has already taught us. I certainly was not 'cyber abusing'.

I have heard from at least two non-union members that they will 'throw a sickie' on strike days rather than join the union. I think the company will be wise to this and the company doctor will be on hand to check out all sickness claims.

So your choice is very clear:

1. Join the union, if only for the period of action, and strike legally with help and support from your colleagues and big Balpa.
2. Don't join and go sick. Expect an immediate appointment with the company doc.
3. Don't join and go to work and hold your head up high.

My view, and as this is a discussion forum I am entitled to give it, is that I believe number 1 is the best option. Membership, after tax relief, for someone earning £50,000 a year will be under £7 per month. If the dispute lasts till the end of September that will total less than £35.

I believe that option number two is the cowards way out. My view only.

Those, whose moral stance (as it surely can't be financial) is to take option 3, will need a strong backbone throughout, and after the strike. I trust this stance will continue after a deal is done when they will refuse any payrise earned by their brethren. Could I suggest that they contribute any pay increase over 4% to charity each month?

Surely the idea behind democratic workings is that you take what the majority have voted for whether or not one is part of that majority? I'd love to, though I think it hardly feasible, to opt out of say higher taxes introduced by a government for which I have not voted. Or take it further and disregard what I consider to be unfair legislation.

It cuts both ways, you can vote for, against or abstain. When it comes to voting, abstention is a perfectly valid choice, however it certainly does not follow that having abstained that the outcome of any vote does not apply to you. I'd say our man has every right to enjoy whatever comes of all this. He simply isn't inclined, as you are, to play a part in directing its outcome. Your subsription to balpa buys you this priviledge. Fair enough no?

LGW pilots meeting
 

I see R.S. has found time in his "train wreck" of a schedule to visit the troops down at LGW.
I hope he gets a two fingered salute, and the message is sent loud and clear.

With the greatest of respect Caudillo your argument cuts both ways. 185lbs's actions are akin to saying I forgo my right to vote in exchange for not paying my taxes, somewhat different from abstention, no?

I think it's worth reiterating that 185Lbs has made it explicitly clear that his objections are purely fiscal rather than moral, which is why he elicited such heated responses. He made pretence at having a moral stance which we all could, and I certainly would, have respected him for however this was quickly disproved. As it transpires he doesn't want to pay union fees but does want to reap all the benefits of membership by receiving the same pay rise and seeking information via pprune.

Perhaps we could put it to RS that anyone not in the union should not benefit from any future payrise. I am sure he would jump at the chance to save a few quid:} :}

Will the next scene be from Hamlet or Julius Caesar?

Please can we only have one LGW pilot holding the knife....

... no, ...you can't all play that part..

Hold on...

..pilots form LTN, MAN and Brum also want to help too...

..there will be blood on the floor. :D :D :D :D :D

So did anyone go to RS's meeting ? hope anyone who did got up after 5 mins of silence and left. :cool::cool:

Come on guys, SOMEBODY must have gone to the meeting, what did RS have to say?

would you go?
 

why would anyone want to go and talk to a moron who has scre*d us over the last few years? He has single handedly managed to reduce our work conditions. I wonder what his point of view would be if he was on this side of the fence?
Come on, would you make an effort on a day off, I wouldn't and didn't, cause it certainly wasn't set up for the pilots benefit.
Let the CC deal with him, I think the management are about to get what they never expected the pilots to do....unless of course they give us 12% or more!
I hope the cc doesn't back down and sell out

Monarch are recruiting again according to this week's flight

You don't say, Monarch are always recruiting now because they have such a high turn over of new blokes.

SOME of the management are convinced they are recruiting 'top' notch staff...........:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'm reading all this and I find it hard to believe that company that once has been a top choice for many has fallen so low