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Monarch Man you stated that :
Bealzebub, it is interesting you make the observation The problem is that saying " I was desperate for a job", " I didn't fully appreciate the terms", "other people are getting more than I am", etc.etc. Is very interesting and I do have some degree of sympathy ( as I said previously, we saw this coming ), but it simply doesn't change the facts. seems to show you are resigned to living with the current state of affairs, or that those amongst the current crop of MON pilots who are on inferior contracts of employment should somehow just accept their fate. The problem is that saying " I was desperate for a job", " I didn't fully appreciate the terms", "other people are getting more than I am", etc.etc. Is very interesting and I do have some degree of sympathy ( as I said previously, we saw this coming ), but it simply doesn't change the facts. It doesn't matter how angrily you respond to my comments or how much you jump up and down moaning about anything, everything and everyone. The answer to your problem (if there is one) may very well be embedded in the very thing you are railing against. If that is the case you would need to be very focused and I am not seeing a great deal of that in some of these replies. In fact ( condescension, arrogance and aloofness aside ) , I wrote : It is not impossible to vary contracts or in some cases to have them judged invalid. New contracts can be substituted for old ones. It doesn't really matter what the contract is, employment, sale & purchase, marriage. There may be different rules and protocols but most are written to protect the seller. It is always wise to know what you are entering into, and fully understand the terms you are agreeing to. The problem is that later it may be very difficult to renegotiate, break or vary a contract that was written for the sellers benefit. I would be delighted to see you get better remuneration and improved terms & conditions. I would be just as pleased to see the new terms and conditions substituted with the old ones. I would like to see the old pension plans reopened to everybody. You also appear to contend that as a matter of contractual practice, employment contracts are non negotiable entities, or at the very least, protected beyond the realms of collective bargaining. I hope you have a great time at Virgin (you frequently allude to going to a new company with a charismatic owner ?) and wish you well for the future. However many of us will still be working here and seeking to make both the company a success and our own futures a success. There is nothing funda mentally wrong with "looking after number one". Then again nobody really needs to tell you that, do they Monarch Man ? :rolleyes: |
Surely that must be game set and match to Bealzebub!!!!!
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Well Bealzebub, it would appear that you and I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint when it comes to summing an issue up.
First and foremost, we ARE NOT negotiating here, we are however exploring the relative merits of each others arguments. Thus far you have taken a view that IMHO lacks any passion, conviction, or indeed ambition, you appear yet again happy to maneuver yourself in such a way that takes nothing away from your own position, and yet paradoxically concede that you would be happy to see an improvement in the "newer" contracts..I would ask which is it? Your approach BTW also says an awful lot more about yourself and your personal history than needs to be discussed here. As regards to the impression I give, that is entirely up to you, I can however assure you that my motivation is based on the history of backroom discussions, lack of candor, and a general lack of accountability from previous CC's So Bealzebub I guess if the cap fits, we can both wear it, please however don't accuse me of making my arguments selective. I have only ever highlighted the points YOU have raised, and my interpretation of such points is focused squarely on the issues that affect us all. Predictably B, my points won't sit well with your more clinical view of things, but then again so what? I am confident that my views are far more representative than yours are ever likely to be....but then again you knew that already. As for my new employer, take 15-20 years off yourself Beazlebub, substitute said younger version of ones self into todays world and ask the question, what would you do? When all is said and done this discussion boils down to a rather simple question, are MON T & C's competitive in todays job market? Bealzebub, Q Top, and Mr Portside would appear to think so:hmm: A quick glance at the membership website would suggest otherwise, along with a chat with virtually all line pilots (old and new contracts) you would care to mention. |
WOW i bet TJ and other top floor management are loving what this threads turned into.......
Some in-fighting and toy throwing amongst collegues. They must be laughing with glee - with less than a month of negotiating the workforce, or maybe just a few bored individuals, have turned this into a them and us yawn fest... with toys flying without abandon. Divide and conquer...... Then again reading the BALPA forums and the sentiment within, it seems the top floor should be concerned. |
MM,
I rather feel you are simply arguing for its own sake. A lot of what you say is completely contradictory and makes no sense. In so doing it only dilutes the merit of whatever your point happens to be. For example : Thus far you have taken a view that IMHO lacks any passion, conviction, or indeed ambition, you appear yet again happy to maneuver yourself in such a way that takes nothing away from your own position, and yet paradoxically concede that you would be happy to see an improvement in the "newer" contracts..I would ask which is it? Perhaps that is why I keep the argument clinical and focused, because what ever the future will hold for this company, I like many others here will still be a part of it ! 15 or 20 years ago, people were even then leaving the company to go to Virgin, B.A, Cathay Pacific and others, so in that respect nothing has changed. In many of those same companies the terms & conditions of employment have changed over the years and their appeal may be restricted to a certain age or seniority group as a result. That group clearly includes you, and as I said good luck to you. Whilst I am happy to answer any questions that are relevant, I cannot address these rhetorical diatribes that you keep falling back into, concerning "backroom discussions", "lack of candour" and "the accountability of previous CC's", as it has nothing to do with me and needs to be addressed to the parties concerned. Bon voyage. |
Beazlebub, I have to hand it to you:ok:, a rather impressive effort at showing yourself to be a contrite colleague friendly member of the team.
I can't help thinking comments such as If you accepted a contract with inferior terms & conditions as many have done in numerous long established airlines, I understand the reasons. However if you thought you would accept them and reality would then change for you a couple of years down the road, well what can I say ! BTW the way the rhetorical diatribes you allude too are mere statements of fact, they are in a sense cause and effect, after all, if all was peachy at the shop, why are the troops upset? 15 or 20 years ago, people were even then leaving the company to go to Virgin, B.A, Cathay Pacific and others, so in that respect nothing has changed. In many of those same companies the terms & conditions of employment have changed over the years and their appeal may be restricted to a certain age or seniority group as a result. As I said, put yourself in my shoes for a moment. On this point.... Perhaps that is why I keep the argument clinical and focused, because what ever the future will hold for this company, I like many others here will still be a part of it ! It does rather smack of hypocrisy to tell somebody who has spent over 2 decades contributing to the companies success, and who will continue to do so, that their view lacks any conviction or ambition, whilst you are preaching from your pedestal made of another airlines operating manuals ! I cannot question your loyalty to MON, if as you say you have given 20 years of service, I can however question your motives because it is rather clear to me that you have little room in your professional heart for anyone other than yourself. As for preaching from another companies Ops manuals, well I guess I'll consign that remark to the appropriate filing cabinet. Nice:yuk: |
MM,
Emotive clap trap, I have nothing further to add. :bored: |
Interesting answer Beazlebub, other peoples futures are emotive claptrap?
Enjoy your continued service:ok: |
We may well be going to have to strike. Bealzebub will work through the strike. No doubt he's about 55 and has his hands on his FS pension. He doesn't give a damn about anyone else. He'll work through the strike. We can do without that selfish minority, but will he sleep at night? Do we care?
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Bealezebub I would imagine it is a no brainer to give 'twenty years of service' to Monarch when they had the best pension in the industry and the second best salary when you joined.
Would you still be there if they had offered you an 8% for 8% DC pension when you joined? I don't think most of us actually WANT to leave, but Monarch have fallen so far behind particularly in terms of remuneration and pensions that to stay for a career would be dooming ourselves to poverty in our retirement and thats saying nothing of the £1000 a month less in the mean time that you can make almost anywhere else for a similar job. I think these guys are showing loyalty by sticking around to see if things will improve, where any accountant would be telling them they are mad. |
Funny,
I'm one of those rich gits. But when contemplating the world at 30 west in a Monarch Aeroplane, I wonder why my allowances are not the same as the Virgin trotting past or indeed the 1st Choice I'm overtaking who gets share options. (well he did) Whatever our yearly allowances add up too, proberbly more than £2000 but a heck of a lot less than Virgin or 1st Choice. and don't get me on to T'fly's Easy's Bmi's sector pay. Take home pay is what most familys need and Monarch's is no where near the going rate for this day & age. Whatever the arguments, that is ALL the pilots are asking for is the GOING RATE. As for the DB scheme, nice golden hand cuffs but it doesn't pay the b'ldy school fees. :rolleyes: |
Shouldn't all this be on the Monarch Forum, or better still the BALPA Forum? BB's apparent satisfaction with his current T&Cs could be hidden from the management then.
Incidentally, BB, if we had to strike (I hope not, BTW) what would you do? Would you: a) Join BALPA (if not already a member) and strike, b) Throw a sickie! c) Come in to work and (happily or not) cross a picket line, d) Have some other, more fiendish, plan up your sleeve? Like you, I've been here a long time now, and I'm doing OK out of Monarch, but I know it is not the generally happy outfit it once was, and other, formerly lesser, companies seem to offer much better packages to new joiners and old hands alike. Monarch's T&Cs could, and should, be better for everyone. |
With his pay offer the MD seems to have seriously misjudged his pilot workforce.Some may even see his offer as insulting.He has not tried to buy the good will of his training pilots,and he if only offering less than inflation to the rest but at a cost of changes to the rostering scheme.
I am sure that he has been ill informed of the mood of his pilots by his operations director,himself a former cc chairman. Monarch were a happy company once,but not any more.It is not even as though we have numerous cash hungry shareholders or pension funds to placate with our balance sheet.Perhaps the aroma of performance related bonuses is over powering compared to the shrill call of common sense that should be wafting around the top floor of Prospect House. To paraphrase a 90's pop star-ITS BALLOT TIME!! |
What sort of "management" deliberately antagonises it's staff by presenting an offer to reduce salary and remove benefits? How
:mad: arrogant! They clearly want a fight so I suggest we give them what they want. |
So this years pay offer is a pay cut of 0.7% and a decrease in terms and conditions ???
Obviously the MD dosn't want a training department. Tell me this is a joke............. When are we parking up the aircraft again ? |
I thought the tone of the offer was pure confrontation. Even the reasonable, easy going, never complaining types are baying for their ballot papers now. I think RS/TJ have seriously misjudged this situation.
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The Offer:
1) A pay CUT 2) More night flying 3) Less time off on your Days Off Sweet Deal, CV goin out, Adios MON. To Wannabes - I'm guessin theres gonna be many leaving shortly, so get your CV's in and stay for a year then bugger off to a company that respects you. Monarch = Training Airline/Hour Builder "Monarch, Expect More, Pays (even) Less" :mad: |
What a bloody joke eh!! So this is how our management view us? The offer is a complete insult to all us - Trainers and new joiners alike. To anyone interested in Monarch I would say look elsewhere - this really isn't the place it use to be...
Bealzebub - you still happy?? |
I am one of the guys that started at MON in early 05 but have since legged it. I'm just interested to know exactly what the pay offer was. Can anyone please enlighten me?
I'm finding it so hard to understand why the management are hell bent on destroying what was once a quality airline. At the end of the day, all that is required is to pay the "going rate". As has been said before, they are obviously trying to align payscales with Turbo operators!!:E |
Perhaps Tim Jeans is still working for Micheal O'Leary
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Ballot out tomorrow for union members. I fully recommend that those Monarch pilots not in BALPA join pretty sharpish!
Monarch - Expects more/pays less! |
Quite right Whoops - we need everyone on board for this - I would ask all Monarch guys to pass the word around to non BALPA memebers - you could also mention that it's also quite easy to leave BALPA at a later stage - :cool:
TJ's recent offer is an insult - and he has badly misjudged the mood of his workforce - his offer would make our lives even worse than they are now - more night flights, less time off and only 4% on pay (nb NOT RPI + 4%) As for the pension, forget it! SB |
So, for all you new potential joiners think long and hard what type of company Monarch has become, oh, and if you do join, bring your donkey jacket, its cold on the picket line.
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The offer is insulting and derisory, its also part of TJ's game.
The ballot is now pending:E |
What a sad day this has turned out to be.
Having spent just under a decade flying the 'spotty M', it was a major decision to pack up and head East. A tough decision at the time, especially when it involved emmigrating with the family. Four years down the sandy road and I now realise it was probably the best decision I could have made. My only regret is not having made it earlier! For me, the writing on the wall was the end of the FS pension scheme for new joiners and I saw that as the begining of the end. I count myself fortunate to have flown with some of the most decent people in aviation. Good training, great flying, fab layovers, decent pay and above all, open and trusting relationship between Pilots and management. That is what made Monarch special and why it was a tough decision to leave. I imagine it's the very same reason that so many now feel bitter resentment towards the Company with its insulting and derisory pay offer. What a nice way to repay loyalty! Whatever course of action that's taken by the Pilots now, is fundermental in shaping how managment will behave for the next 3-5 years and with the market conditions as they stand, never has there been a better chance to stand up and be heard. I wish you all well. Regards Bymonek |
As a fellow ex Monarch pilot I would like to offer my support to the entire workforce, and in particular the lads/ladies who are looking at another 30 years of flying in front of them. Monarch is a great company with a long and proud history but the management are taking the pi$$. Look around the industry at similar pay deals to your peers and make up your mind. Virgin, BA, Easy, Brits, BM etc. etc. have seen considerable raises in pay while the likes of Monarch have slipped off edge.
The key to success is UNITY and use the full brunt of BALPA to force the company to see the light. You ‘I’m all right jacks’ better get involved as well because no matter what you think, they will be after you at some point. To think otherwise would be playing the fool. Support one another and you will not lose. Time to make a stand. If I was still in the company you can bet I would be banging the drum, and loud. Best of luck! :ok: :E :ok: |
Well my (indicative) ballot paper's on its way back to BALPA! I'm so insulted by the pay offer that I don't give a damn what threats come from the company and if the CC call a strike, I'll be enthusiastic about taking part!
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Pay less..............get less!
Pay less...get less!:=
Tell that to TJ. If all the pilots work to rule, report one hour before a flight,as per CAA rostering rules, there is no way TJ will get any of his ZB flights away on time. Take action at the start of the summer season and lets see if the offer doesn't improve very quickly. :D Have seen the company do this year after year. The writing was on the wall a few years back with the awful pay conditions RS sold to the CTC cadets. I think there was some backhanded pushing and shoving done b CTC also. It stunk. := DON'T LET THE COMPANY GET AWAY WITH IT THIS TIME. TAKE IT TO THE LIMIT. PAY LESS, GET LESS.........REMEMBER THAT MR TJ! let everyone outside Monarch know, if they can't get the pilots then they are going to have to pay more. YOU ARE WORTH MORE GUYS! |
Would someone care to cut and paste the details of the offer here or on the Monarch page? It would help those of us who are considering our position!
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185 lbs,
Why arent you in the union? Join then you can find out. :mad: |
185lbs said
What if one is of the somewhat out of fashion point of view that both parties have signed a contract and that it should be honoured by both parties? Lets leave aside a minute all the reasons given for the unrest etc and have a look at what I consider to be a basic principle of decent personal conduct. I have, in the last 18 months, signed a contract of employment that is being honoured by my employer. I think, regardless of the provocation, I would be letting myself down if I were to break my contract. Personally, I just fundamentally disagree with the principle. I suppose it's just not right. Anyway, I imagine I'm in for a blasting as I realise this is not the way of the world today so my hard hat is deployed.....enjoy.:hmm: |
ZeBedie,
Totally agree! Please no one post the info or private msg 185lbs (of $#!T3 ??). You can either help us fight the good fight that will hopefully help all the pilots or you can shut up & bend over TJs desk and hand him the vaseline. To think any of us boys and girls in BALPA are going to help you with the info your seeking so you can make career decisions, spews extreme arrogance/stupidity. :ugh: Moron! |
4% this year, RPI next. work 3 consecutive nights instead of 2 and start work at 7 am instead of 8 am after a day off. It says in 2 pages !
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Pilotsof
Presume working 3 nights in a row compared to the current 2 nights is an offer following complaints to MON / CAA etc about constant "misuse" of the 18-30hrs rest rule in CAP371. Sounds a sensible (and safer?) offer to me :\ |
The inverted commas around the word misuse speak volumes.
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R.S. will be the first head to roll, followed by TJ, unless RS is off in Calgary enjoying some late season snow:hmm:
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Some of you may remember that a certain chief pilot and also head of crewing became "ill" when the shareholders found out that there were no crew to fly their shiny new airbus.They will be in orbit if the dispute goes to industrial action!:eek::eek::eek::eek:
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So will this go to industrial action ?, what are the management thinking ? :ugh:
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It would appear that they aren't thinking!
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"So will this go to industrial action ?"
Nilcost if you were a balpa member you would already know the answer to that question. |
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