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-   -   IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/631988-iag-ba-restructuring-may-cost-12-000-jobs.html)

777JRM 16th Jun 2020 09:57


Originally Posted by Busdriver01 (Post 10812085)
Is it that they believe the price is too high, or that they know itís the going rate but just donít care because theyíve found an opportunity they otherwise would never have found to reduce terms anyway?

The latter.

777JRM 16th Jun 2020 10:05


Originally Posted by guy_incognito (Post 10812102)
In my opinion, the job was barely worth doing on the salaries hitherto offered. It's clear that airline management industry wide has long had pilot Ts&Cs firmly in their sites and this crisis has provided them with the golden opportunity to swing the axe. Even any changes presented as "temporary" will inevitably turn out to be not so temporary.

The problem lies in the fact that very few pilots have the qualifications and experience to go and do anything else, without making a significant investment in terms of time and money. WW, PB at easy, MOL etc. all know that they have pilots over a barrel, and that they can offer literally anything they want knowing that the majority of people will sign up just to keep some money coming in. Maybe people will sign up thinking that the "good times" will return. Clearly demand will rise at some point in the industry, but with a seemingly never-ending queue of kids (or their parents) willing to pay £120k for flight training, there's no reason to think that Ts&Cs will ever return to the level we saw three months ago.


Once Ts & Cs are trashed, this will no longer be a sought-after career, with all the initial training costs, continual pressure from fatigue (FTL limits set as targets), being away from home, sim checks, medicals, etc, and the ultimate responsibilty of many lives.

Who knows in how many years, but I think there will be a global shortage.
Unless of course the industry will change with technology to a single pilot with a ground-based back-up, or even no pilots at all!


guy_incognito 16th Jun 2020 10:13


Originally Posted by TheAirMission (Post 10812132)
Yes, blame the kids. Not all are stereotypically rich family children. Most parents have bent over backward to provide their kids with their dream ambition. You would probably do similar steps if your children were adamant for a certain career. Having been lucky to be in a situation where I was able to attend a 'big' flight school should I have not gone just so the number you talk about became slightly less? The decline in the T&Cs at the top of the ecosystem is not caused by the those at the bottom who enter. Get a grip, become a union rep, walk the walk, instead of writing utter crap.

I'm not blaming anyone for it. It's a fact that the primary barrier to entry into a career as a pilot is financial, and not academic qualification based. The airlines don't care about hiring the best people: they want the cheapest possible to achieve the regulatory minimum standard of safety.This has allowed airlines to take advantage of an endless supply of cheap labour at the bottom, without having to invest anything in them. Compare that to real professions like medicine and law, where the barriers to entry are extremely high, and serious investment is made to recruit the best people.

There is no solution to the problem. The regulator doesn't care because it's proven to be a safe way of operating an airline. The union might care, but in the UK at least is seriously restricted in what it can do. It's fanciful to suggest pilots will go on strike to do something about entry level conditions, even if it was legal to do so (which it isn't). Oh and I was a union rep.

SaulGoodman 16th Jun 2020 10:32

Come on and letís think about it for a moment..

letís say for one second that there are ďcaptains willing to go to BA for 20kĒ then they:
- Have to pass selection
- background check
- Have their licenses checked, validated
- Have to be Issued a UKCAA licence
- Induction course / CRM / Groundschool
- OCC
- Security course / airport badge
- line training

imagine you have to plan this for 1000plus pilots while other airlines are doing the same. How are you going to get simulator availability? This will be a total nightmare.

This applies to type rated pilots. Flying Clogís ďA380 CaptainĒ has to do a complete type rating!!

hec7or 16th Jun 2020 11:47


Originally Posted by TheAirMission (Post 10812132)
Yes, blame the kids. etc.

BA used to fully fund their cadet's flight training, would you be able to let me know what the Union did to maintain that arrangement?

Jet II 16th Jun 2020 12:44


Originally Posted by Busdriver01 (Post 10812085)
Is it that they believe the price is too high, or that they know itís the going rate but just donít care because theyíve found an opportunity they otherwise would never have found to reduce terms anyway?

But what is this 'going rate'? - if the airline can find people to sit in the 2 seats at the front of the plane for £50k and £25k respectively then surely that is the going rate. £200k and £100k might have been the case 20 years ago but the industry has moved on. As a previous poster pointed out, it used to be the case where the airlines paid for training but at the same time they restricted access to that training so that only a few people were lucky enough to become a pilot and thus supply never exceeded demand - now the system is more 'democratised' and anyone with the money can fulfil their dream.

Is it likely that we are going to go back to the old system and wage levels? - I'd suggest probably not so I think people need to get used to the new normal and decide whether aviation is the career for them.

esscee 16th Jun 2020 12:59

That is the problem, as for the last few years Flying ability is taking a back seat to anyone who has or can gain access to money to pay to fly. Look at what has happened in some countries, as long as you have a bit of paper that says it is a licence does not necessarily mean that person has been correctly trained and certified as a pilot or even engineer for that matter!

TURIN 16th Jun 2020 13:27


Originally Posted by Jet II (Post 10811816)
Doesnt look like WW is in the mood to back down. And I do think he has a point that it is a bit of a cheek for Huw Merriman to complain when it is his Party who have introduced the 14 day quarantine (and the 2 meter distancing) that is effectively killing the industry.

Not really. WW started this abuse well before the 14 day quarantine idea was introduced. It isn't killing the industry either. The virus is doing that all by itself.

Douglas Bahada 16th Jun 2020 14:04

Err no. The governments reaction to the virus is killing the industry.

Busdriver01 16th Jun 2020 17:35


Originally Posted by Jet II (Post 10812321)
But what is this 'going rate'? - if the airline can find people to sit in the 2 seats at the front of the plane for £50k and £25k respectively then surely that is the going rate. £200k and £100k might have been the case 20 years ago but the industry has moved on. As a previous poster pointed out, it used to be the case where the airlines paid for training but at the same time they restricted access to that training so that only a few people were lucky enough to become a pilot and thus supply never exceeded demand - now the system is more 'democratised' and anyone with the money can fulfil their dream.

Is it likely that we are going to go back to the old system and wage levels? - I'd suggest probably not so I think people need to get used to the new normal and decide whether aviation is the career for them.

A fair point, which is why the outcome of the consultations / negotiations / call them what you will is so crucial. If the unions can succeed in securing the long term contracts now, that sends a message that the going rate is the current rate, as a minimum.

I hear Aer Lingus are on the cusp of of a deal with their pilots / IALPA that doesn’t see any changes to contracts, rather short term part time deals, and also no redundancies.

RexBanner 16th Jun 2020 19:52


Originally Posted by Busdriver01 (Post 10812552)
I hear Aer Lingus are on the cusp of of a deal with their pilots / IALPA that doesnít see any changes to contracts, rather short term part time deals, and also no redundancies.

This has to strengthen our hand, surely? It creates precedent for IAG. However, as someone has pointed out on the Balpa forums, stand by to be fed all the usual excuses from the BACC why this canít apply to us as we get served up a wholly unappetizing sh*t sandwich.

kungfu panda 16th Jun 2020 19:55

I think that the BACC are scared to death of what they have to recommend to you. It could cost the existence of BALPA.

Threethirty 16th Jun 2020 20:20

Ireland has a 14 day quarantine in place too, so that canít be used as an excuse by BA to slash jobs.

polax52 16th Jun 2020 20:58

They don't need an excuse. They can do what they like. At the end they have you guys by the short and curly's. You have nothing to bargain with at all right now. There are hundreds of guys with EASA licences, type ratings, experience on type, recency, Police clearance etc returning from the middle east needing "any" job, and now. Anybody suggesting that BALPA have chips to play is deceiving himself.

WW is in an awfully difficult position as well. I'm sure he is s........ himself. He wants to take this opportunity to roll over your salaries, he'll never get this chance again. However he knows that he may need to make real this threat of firing the lot of you, but then how in the heck does he get enough of you/ex-Emirates guys back into the flight deck to restart operations in August or September.

MOL would just fire you. No messing around. You'd already be gone.

This is Interesting. What is going to happen??

bex88 16th Jun 2020 21:05

A lot of BS on here.

Northern Monkey 16th Jun 2020 21:25

As crap as the CAA are, there has to be a question mark over the AOC if the company decide to "go nuclear". Particularly if training appointment holders are sacked too. It just doesn't seem like a likely scenario to me, but who knows. We're in uncharted territory.

The most likely outcome is the most obvious one. A crap deal, but BALPA recommends it and it goes through with a decent margin, despite all hell breaking loose on the other forum.

polax52 16th Jun 2020 21:59


Originally Posted by Northern Monkey (Post 10812744)
The most likely outcome is the most obvious one. A crap deal, but BALPA recommends it and it goes through with a decent margin, despite all hell breaking loose on the other forum.

Yes. That is what will happen.

polax52 16th Jun 2020 22:05


Originally Posted by Northern Monkey (Post 10812744)
As crap as the CAA are, there has to be a question mark over the AOC if the company decide to "go nuclear". Particularly if training appointment holders are sacked too. It just doesn't seem like a likely scenario to me, but who knows. We're in uncharted territory.

Trainers would obviously not be sacked. Those guys would get a pay rise.

Jumpjim 16th Jun 2020 22:24

You seriously think we’d step up to the plate if the rest of our colleagues had just been given the boot? I can tell you for a fact it wouldn’t happen..

Dont feed the troll folks...

polax52 16th Jun 2020 22:34

I've been through this, you'd save your own skin. Whatever you say on PPrune.
As Northern Monkey said, it's not the likely scenario. It is however going through the mind of WW.
In reality BALPA have to recommend whatever WW decides or risk "the nuclear option".


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