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-   -   IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/631988-iag-ba-restructuring-may-cost-12-000-jobs.html)

hec7or 13th Jun 2020 17:42

It doesn't affect BALPA at all, they will still have their jobs long after ours are gone.

ExSp33db1rd 13th Jun 2020 23:28


But i I will say, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a picture of WW where he’s genuinely smiling
.

But as my father used to remark about the wealthy - " at least they can be miserable in comfort ".

A320LGW 14th Jun 2020 00:36

https://www-rte-ie.cdn.ampproject.or...e/amp/1147229/


The previous article posted here has been reneged on by RTE who seem to have realised their error, Aer Lingus have not reached agreement at all with the unions yet. Cabin crew are to be balloted and the pilots are still engaging in negotiations via IALPA who are adamant that any changes are to be temporary.

777JRM 14th Jun 2020 07:29


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 10810174)
It may be a moot point ATM but an observation - Pre COVID BA was managing to make more than 1 Billion profit per annum despite these "legacy" costs ( which in the Cabin Crew arena were reducing anyway as the percentage of Cabin Crew on "legacy" contracts reduced).


In fact, BA was making €2bn profit with these same cost structures.
Last year was the second highest ever, I think.
That’s 2/3rds of IAG total profit, yet BA will take most of the ‘pain’.

One might also ask: Why should just the employees take the pain for poor fuel-hedging decisions that cost €1.3bn.
When will we see shareholders take some of that pain, eg, in a rights issue perhaps?
I think the Qataris can afford it.

And yes, as Mixed Fleet expands and Legacy retire off, the costs go down anyway.

GKOC41 14th Jun 2020 11:23


Originally Posted by Oh gaim (Post 10809855)
Good point from Huw on the beeb this morning.

He asked WW to make any terms cuts temporary until market conditions improve and WW outright refused - making it clear that this is not about the pandemic.

Also he referenced the legacy fares for LCC wages (and service particularly in Europe these days). How sustainable will that be at legacy fares.

I assume WW will go after all the Directors, Managers and give them a nice pay cut also. Don't get me wrong BA need to make cuts to numbers. But I i'm struggling to see many other airlines go after T+C also. And he'll come back for more you know that. In most Airlines it's normally the 5% that have to be managed. BA seems to have made that 95% by their actions.

polax52 15th Jun 2020 08:39


Originally Posted by 777JRM (Post 10810539)
In fact, BA was making €2bn profit with these same cost structures.
Last year was the second highest ever, I think.
That’s 2/3rds of IAG total profit, yet BA will take most of the ‘pain’.

One might also ask: Why should just the employees take the pain for poor fuel-hedging decisions that cost €1.3bn.
When will we see shareholders take some of that pain, eg, in a rights issue perhaps?
I think the Qataris can afford it.

And yes, as Mixed Fleet expands and Legacy retire off, the costs go down anyway.

Unfortunately you're looking at rescuing what you hope is a secure and prosperous future. You're hoping for union or government intervention to make that happen. In the real, pure captitalist world, the market value of our profession as a "British Passport holding" Airline pilot has collapsed. There are experienced Captains out there right now that would bite your hand off for £20,000 per year. There are no expat jobs out there, there won't be jobs for British Pilots in Europe going forward. In the British socialist world, maybe we can prop up the salaries for a little longer.

We are kind of similar to WTI crude oil on April 20th. But our supply can't be so easily turned off.

OUASrules! 15th Jun 2020 09:39


Originally Posted by Jet II (Post 10810169)
Interesting - it means that basically all staff at Aer Lingus are now on Zero Hours Contracts and that the contract changes are now permanent. Not sure the Unions in the UK would have gone along with that.

This is not strictly true. Agreement has to be ratified still. As has been said already, pilots are negotiating separately through IALPA and, by the looks of it, are in no where near the same space as colleagues in the UK. A very different approach it would appear, and potentially a very different (and far more positive) outcome. I agree, BA aren’t the only airline within the group taking pain, but they are most definitely taking the lions share.

I wish you all well, these are nasty times. Sad to see those at the top of the organisation show their true colours.

Keep fighting, keep the unity and keep the faith. I look forward to hearing you all over the airwaves again soon.

777JRM 15th Jun 2020 10:05


Originally Posted by polax52 (Post 10811247)
Unfortunately you're looking at rescuing what you hope is a secure and prosperous future. You're hoping for union or government intervention to make that happen. In the real, pure captitalist world, the market value of our profession as a "British Passport holding" Airline pilot has collapsed. There are experienced Captains out there right now that would bite your hand off for £20,000 per year. There are no expat jobs out there, there won't be jobs for British Pilots in Europe going forward. In the British socialist world, maybe we can prop up the salaries for a little longer.

We are kind of similar to WTI crude oil on April 20th. But our supply can't be so easily turned off.


I suspect that everything you just said in your doomcast email is wrong.

Look at all the airlines who are ramping up services for June and July (Wizzair, Ryanair, Turkish (no lay-offs), Thai (no lay-offs)), despite the illogical 14-day quarantine period.

Where is your evidence for experienced captains right now who would bite your hand off for £20k a year?


GS-Alpha 15th Jun 2020 10:28


Originally Posted by polax52 (Post 10811247)
There are experienced Captains out there right now that would bite your hand off for £20,000 per year.

I do not believe that for one second. Why would they even consider it? Far better to go earn £20k doing pretty much any other job and wait it out for a better flying salary.

kungfu panda 15th Jun 2020 10:44

You guys are dreaming as well. Polax has it right. There'll be 1500 experienced longhaul Pilots coming from Emirates, largely European, most of those British. Another several hundred coming out of Qatar. Plus Saudia, Oman, Kuwait, possibly Flydubai and Etihad, all laying off 100+.
There are no expat jobs to go to in the far East.

Pilots will accept any money right now just to keep their licences current. They will not leave the industry.

esscee 15th Jun 2020 10:46

To paraphrase from the past - "No Captain would get out of bed for £20,000 per year."

GS-Alpha 15th Jun 2020 10:50

If people accept such low salaries, they won’t be temporary, they’ll be permanent. If that’s what they want, that’s their choice, but I don’t believe it.

Denti 15th Jun 2020 10:58

Nobody wants that. But many pilots do not have much in terms of up to date transferable skills and at the end of the day need to put some food on the table and pay for a roof over their (and their families) head. Not everybody was sensible enough to build a rainy day fund that allows them to stay unemployed for more than a few months.

777JRM 15th Jun 2020 11:04

Sure there will be a surplus.
What will the airlines do when things pick up?
Expansion, or do nothing?
And don’t forget the importance of air cargo.

Wizzair say their recovery will take 12 months.
Maybe a bit optimistic, but they have good liquidity.

I remember reading somewhere that pre-Covid, China alone were forecasting needing 5000 pilots PER YEAR.




TURIN 15th Jun 2020 11:11


Originally Posted by kungfu panda (Post 10811391)
You guys are dreaming as well. Polax has it right. There'll be 1500 experienced longhaul Pilots coming from Emirates, largely European, most of those British. Another several hundred coming out of Qatar. Plus Saudia, Oman, Kuwait, possibly Flydubai and Etihad, all laying off 100+.
There are no expat jobs to go to in the far East.

Pilots will accept any money right now just to keep their licences current. They will not leave the industry.


I am not a pilot, but I do have a licence to work on aircraft, it too needs to remain current. However, if my salary drops to £20k I will definately be leaving the industry. I still need to pay the mortgage and if I can beat £20k doing a job that requires less skill and responsibility I'll take it for that kind of money.

A chap told me a story once about a negotiation within an airline. The mamagement stated directly to the reps that they should consider themselve lucky to have a job. The rep looked up and quietly said "Lucky to have a job? Listen pal, I choose to sell you my expertise, skill and experience, you are buying my free time"

It still applies today.

Good luck everyone, D-day is upon us.


guy_incognito 15th Jun 2020 13:01

The issue is that most pilots aren't qualified for anything other than minimum wage work if they're not flying. That works out at less than £20k a year.

I wonder if licensed engineers may be in a better position with more transferable skills.

GS-Alpha 15th Jun 2020 13:19

I would like to think most if not all pilots have better forward thinking skills than a 2 year old who takes 1 sweet now rather than waiting and being rewarded with 4 sweets later. If they are not, then they only have themselves to blame. No way would I do my job for £20k a year.

guy_incognito 15th Jun 2020 13:31

I'd like to think that too. Sadly I fear it is wishful thinking.

Jet II 15th Jun 2020 13:44


Originally Posted by GS-Alpha (Post 10811563)
I would like to think most if not all pilots have better forward thinking skills than a 2 year old who takes 1 sweet now rather than waiting and being rewarded with 4 sweets later. If they are not, then they only have themselves to blame. No way would I do my job for £20k a year.


But what if the option was no job?. Lets say you have just been made redundant from a ME carrier and the only offer on the table is at BA Flight Crew starting pay (currently £26k I believe). Would you take that job simply to keep current and rack up the hours until the industry improves maybe in 3 or 4 years and then you can find something better - or would you leave the industry and do something else that you may not have any qualifications for and for which there may be no jobs available anyway in the current economic climate?


Capewell 15th Jun 2020 13:49

BA flight crew starting salary is not 26k. That was for the cadet program which was stopped years ago.


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