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-   -   IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/631988-iag-ba-restructuring-may-cost-12-000-jobs.html)

Just a spotter 28th Apr 2020 16:38

IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs
 
Reuters (28th April 2020) is reporting that IAG is in talks with BA unions about widespread redundancies.

* RECOVERY TO LEVEL OF PASSENGER DEMAND IN 2019 IS EXPECTED TO TAKE SEVERAL YEARS, NECESSITATING GROUP-WIDE RESTRUCTURING MEASURES* IAG IS NOT CURRENTLY PROVIDING PROFIT GUIDANCE FOR 2020* GROUP EXPECTS ITS OPERATING LOSS IN Q2 TO BE SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE THAN IN Q1

* LIKELY THAT RESTRUCTURING AND REDUNDANCY PROGRAMME WILL AFFECT MOST OF BRITISH AIRWAYS’ EMPLOYEES AND MAY RESULT IN REDUNDANCY OF UP TO 12,000
https://www.reuters.com/article/brie...-idUSFWN2CG13O

Best of luck to all.

TURIN 28th Apr 2020 16:56

Not entirely unexpected. We shall see what sort of (if any) kind of package is offered.
Good luck everyone.

whatdoesthisbuttondo 28th Apr 2020 17:11

From the pilots point of view, it’s pretty expensive to make pilots redundant, BA has what 45,000 employees?

Auxtank 28th Apr 2020 17:20

...and 4,500 of those are pilots.

https://mediacentre.britishairways.c...actsheets-3/33

Good Luck to all those affected by this.

peacheyglobes 28th Apr 2020 17:25


Originally Posted by whatdoesthisbuttondo (Post 10766233)
From the pilots point of view, it’s pretty expensive to make pilots redundant, BA has what 45,000 employees?

It could be, although if BA paid the statutory minimum redundancy pay (and I accept that is a big 'IF') then it would actually be quite inexpensive compared to pilot's salary. From gov.uk website:

"Employees get:

1.5 weeks’ pay for each full year of employment after their 41st birthday
a week’s pay for each full year of employment after their 22nd birthday
half a week’s pay for each full year of employment up to their 22nd birthday
Length of service is capped at 20 years and weekly pay is capped at £538. The maximum amount of statutory redundancy pay is £16,140."

Good Business Sense 28th Apr 2020 17:39


Originally Posted by Panel3 (Post 10766256)
There's just over 4500 of us. Possibly 800 redundancies indicated earlier. If the financial crisis is anything to go by VR will be offered first. In the 2008 case we had more volunteering than needed. After that, this time, who knows.

Of course, the BA guys and girls joining those from Flybe and Thomas Cook ..... unprecedented

Ron Swanson 28th Apr 2020 17:48


Originally Posted by whatdoesthisbuttondo (Post 10766233)
From the pilots point of view, it’s pretty expensive to make pilots redundant, BA has what 45,000 employees?

statutory redundancy pay is now capped at £16,140

https://www.gov.uk/redundancy-your-r...redundancy-pay

cashash 28th Apr 2020 17:50

Bad news but not unexpected.

I do fear that many of my friends around the globe are going to end up unemployed by the end of this year.

Auxtank 28th Apr 2020 17:50


Originally Posted by Panel3 (Post 10766256)
There's just over 4500 of us. Possibly 800 redundancies indicated earlier. If the financial crisis is anything to go by VR will be offered first. In the 2008 case we had more volunteering than needed. After that, this time, who knows.

Panel3 - Sorry I got my numbers wrong - I was basing it on BA Factsheet - so they appear to not know either - or just don't bother updating info very often. Have edited my post. Yes, very different circumstances to the banking crisis in which we find ourselves. Best wishes to you and all. What a bugger this all is.

stormin norman 28th Apr 2020 18:01

'Restructuring' means contracts and Ts and Cs out of the window, as well as Redundencies/Severance.

My thoughts are with all affected.

C195 28th Apr 2020 18:02


Originally Posted by Good Business Sense (Post 10766263)
Of course, the BA guys and girls joining those from Flybe and Thomas Cook ..... unprecedented

How many (approximately) pilots did Flybe and Thomas Cook employ?

helicrazi 28th Apr 2020 18:05


Originally Posted by peacheyglobes (Post 10766247)
It could be, although if BA paid the statutory minimum redundancy pay (and I accept that is a big 'IF') then it would actually be quite inexpensive compared to pilot's salary. From gov.uk website:

"Employees get:

1.5 weeks’ pay for each full year of employment after their 41st birthday
a week’s pay for each full year of employment after their 22nd birthday
half a week’s pay for each full year of employment up to their 22nd birthday
Length of service is capped at 20 years and weekly pay is capped at £538. The maximum amount of statutory redundancy pay is £16,140."

Statutory yes, but they can offer any package they want...

My company offered it with an uncapped weekly pay for instance. Unions will negotiate .

macdo 28th Apr 2020 18:09


Originally Posted by C195 (Post 10766294)
How many (approximately) pilots did Flybe and Thomas Cook employ?

tcx uk had about 630. About half those had new positions by January. Disregarding furlough, quite a few have been let go again.
my sympathy and empathy to all BA staff.

Meester proach 28th Apr 2020 18:11

So the nightmare rolls on.

Good luck to the Nigels and Nigellas

peacheyglobes 28th Apr 2020 18:24


Originally Posted by helicrazi (Post 10766299)
Statutory yes, but they can offer any package they want...

My company offered it with an uncapped weekly pay for instance. Unions will negotiate .

Yes as I said in my post it is unlikely BA would pay the statutory minimum. As for the unions negotiating I can't see how they will have much power now.

GKOC41 28th Apr 2020 18:39

What about Lingus and Iberia.
And the Italian Government bails out Alitalia and Air France get a big wad of Government cash.
Just goes to show where employee's are on BA's ladder.

Waterworld 28th Apr 2020 18:54


Originally Posted by GKOC41 (Post 10766333)
What about Lingus and Iberia.
And the Italian Government bails out Alitalia and Air France get a big wad of Government cash.
Just goes to show where employee's are on BA's ladder.

You mean the Goverments ladder?

Interested.Spectator 28th Apr 2020 19:01


Originally Posted by GKOC41 (Post 10766333)
What about Lingus and Iberia.
And the Italian Government bails out Alitalia and Air France get a big wad of Government cash.
Just goes to show where employee's are on BA's ladder.

BA ain't the government, which is kind of the point I think ?

hunterboy 28th Apr 2020 19:07

Who would have thought a company making 2 billion profit would turn around and axe 1/4 of its workforce when the going gets rough? Apart from the staff working for BA, of course, who know what a ruthless, heartless bunch they are.

helicrazi 28th Apr 2020 19:08

Surely it doesn't matter how much cash is pumped in, demand for travel will be alot less so a reduction in work force is inevitable in any company. Cash just keeps the lights on for longer at the moment.

STN Ramp Rat 28th Apr 2020 20:03


Originally Posted by hunterboy (Post 10766369)
Who would have thought a company making 2 billion profit would turn around and axe 1/4 of its workforce when the going gets rough? Apart from the staff working for BA, of course, who know what a ruthless, heartless bunch they are.

Who would have though there would have been a crisis of this magnitude, SAS announced they were laying off 50% of their workforce today, Norwegian announced they will not return to any flying outside of Norway for a year, if indeed they survive the vote next week. You can't blame BA for this.... they will not be the last. Tragic as this is , and it is, if they don't do it they will die.


captain8 28th Apr 2020 21:32

Back in the banking crisis, companies were advised, in future, to save for a rainy day, or 10.
Looks like BA’s vast profits have gone to the fat cats at the top, share holders and institutions, and ordering 737 Max than no one wants to fly on. They have demonstrated how to become a behemoth of the industry, but as part of IAG, headquartered in Spain, I don’t want any of my british tax going their way.
No way BA.

wiggy 28th Apr 2020 21:50


Originally Posted by captain8 (Post 10766483)
.....as part of IAG, headquartered in Spain, I don’t want any of my british tax going their way.
No way BA.

When you've got your breath back is there any chance you might edit that part of that post, just for the sake of accuracy?

Nialler 28th Apr 2020 21:53

Good luck to you all. I'm lucky in that I can flip open my laptop and be virtually at my desk in an instant.

You guys have flown me safely many hundreds of times not just to my destination but, far more importantly, back home again.

You are needed. I desparately hope things can pick up again as quickly as possible.

LHR86 28th Apr 2020 22:16

The restructure of the business is vital to safeguard for future operation profit in line with fleet restructure.

1. All redundancy programmes operate at first with voluntary so their may be significant uptake on these, some voluntary redundancies are appealing to the mature employees who would effectively benefit from this.

2. Roles then assessed and then planning to take place in order to redeploy staff where needed.

3. Moving onto compulsory if needed.

The government policy is for employers to adhere by as a *minimum*. British Airways does NOT offer a statutory redundancy policy, theirs is an enhanced package.
Those who will elect or be selected for VR or CR will receive those terms.

Additionally, contractors that work for the airline will be part of this number and outside of BA as a collective shareholder from IAG

its also worth noting the government JRS is until the end of June At present with the focus being to protect roles during COVID19. The airlines will be waiting for further direction from the government...Aviation has been significantly impacted (and as IAG state, this will continue) for the minimum duration of 2020.

Fly747 29th Apr 2020 01:47


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 10766509)
When you've got your breath back is there any chance you might edit that part of that post, just for the sake of accuracy?

What is inaccurate? IAG is a Spanish registered company.

WhatTheDeuce 29th Apr 2020 03:11

BA plc still operates and pays tax in the UK

FlipFlapFlop 29th Apr 2020 07:13

Not a BA pilot, but waiting for similar or worse (much) at my LCC. We will see what take up there is on VR but sort of agree with Ollie that it will not be enough this time. What would help, if BA had a mind to, is agreement to Priority Return lists in place of a hold pool. Two, one for command one for FO. A commitment to approach in seniority list order when things recover, which they will, and help on currency. The biggest fear for pilots is loss of career, not job, which many of us have done several times already.

king surf 29th Apr 2020 07:23


Originally Posted by Nialler (Post 10766514)
Good luck to you all. I'm lucky in that I can flip open my laptop and be virtually at my desk in an instant.

You guys have flown me safely many hundreds of times not just to my destination but, far more importantly, back home again.

You are needed. I desparately hope things can pick up again as quickly as possible.

Thank you for your nice comments.

LadyL2013 29th Apr 2020 07:34

The thing is, the longer this goes on, even the most profitable of airlines will fall. Unless the government are happy having almost all our airlines fail, then they are going to have to come up with something. Even if it's only done for the sake of the economy. Airlines lose money quite unlike other businesses and I think in this instance, need to be considered differently.

wiggy 29th Apr 2020 07:49

Very true....I do think some here would be quite happy to see BA and even VS go, sacrificed on the Altar of Disaster capitalism, UK style... ...I'm not quite sure what their reaction will then be if the LHR slots/T5 gates end up being occupied by other IAG, Spanish Tax paying ;) operators, and T3 is full to overflowing with US tax payers Delta and AA .....

CEJM 29th Apr 2020 07:49

FlipFlapFlop

Completely agree with you. Working for the same airline as yourself, losing my job doesn’t bother me as much as long as there is a system in place to return when thing pick up. Quite happily go and do something else for a few years.

I am sure that BALPA is all over this and will be looking at something similar for the BA pilots. Hopefully CR can be reduced by Part Time etc. This is not really the time to be unemployed.

GS-Alpha 29th Apr 2020 08:13

Here’s my prediction.
Voluntary redundancies plus a large percentage permanent pay cut (probably 15-20%). Then a few more months down the line, “Things have got worse, we are reissuing minimum notice of compulsory redundancies”. (If the above pay cuts were temporary, they are now made permanent, plus a bit more thumbscrew turning). Repeat this process until BA have knocked terms and conditions down as far as they can get them, and then there will be compulsory redundancies. “They wouldn’t do that surely?” They just have! The negotiations a month or two ago were under the same premise of removing the threat of minimum compulsory redundancy notice. Why settle for just one turn of the thumbscrews when you can turn them multiple times?

3Greens 29th Apr 2020 08:16

The statement from BA Is particularly aimed at U.K. GOV I Think. That’s not to detract from the very serious trading conditions, but willie is in effect giving them a kick up the backside to remind them that if they don’t give us a pathway out of this, The UK airline business will soon be decimated beyond recovery. A strange game of brinksmanship. Possibly some kind of message to not bail Virgin out too, but I was never much good at poker so I won’t comment on that further.

GS-Alpha 29th Apr 2020 08:16


Hopefully CR can be reduced by Part Time etc.
That was already done with the last turn of the thumbscrews a month back.

SASKATOON9999 29th Apr 2020 08:20

And what exactly will Balpa's bargaining position be? I don't see they have much ammunition to play with?
These are unprecedented times, the result of which will not be overcome for several years at best. With such a large scale projected loss of workforce, across all areas of the business, there is very little ability, or indeed need for any enhanced redundancy payments. We are reliant on a significant amount of goodwill - Much of the pointy end workforce was very unwilling to offer any flexibility a few months back!

Riskybis 29th Apr 2020 08:27


Originally Posted by 3Greens (Post 10766876)
The statement from BA Is particularly aimed at U.K. GOV I Think. That’s not to detract from the very serious trading conditions, but willie is in effect giving them a kick up the backside to remind them that if they don’t give us a pathway out of this, The UK airline business will soon be decimated beyond recovery. A strange game of brinksmanship. Possibly some kind of message to not bail Virgin out too, but I was never much good at poker so I won’t comment on that further.

is this the same BA that said they didn’t need government help ?

777aviator 29th Apr 2020 08:28

Good opportunity for BA to get cruise pilots into the business for LH too? Saves a wedge on further reduced FO salaries and training costs? I think the legislation is in place but not yet activated?

Vokes55 29th Apr 2020 08:45


Originally Posted by FlipFlapFlop (Post 10766820)
Not a BA pilot, but waiting for similar or worse (much) at my LCC. We will see what take up there is on VR but sort of agree with Ollie that it will not be enough this time. What would help, if BA had a mind to, is agreement to Priority Return lists in place of a hold pool. Two, one for command one for FO. A commitment to approach in seniority list order when things recover, which they will, and help on currency. The biggest fear for pilots is loss of career, not job, which many of us have done several times already.

Completely agree, and I think this is the one thing unions should be focusing on when it comes to redundancy talks in all airlines. The market will pick up again, and will return to previous levels eventually. Employees both sides of the flight deck door should have re-assurance that they will be invited back in seniority order and, crucially, without an interview or assessment. This would massively soften the blow - there are plenty of other things to do in this life for 2-3 years, with the reassurance of knowing you still have the career that you've invested large sums of time and money into.

MaximumPete 29th Apr 2020 08:48

I'm very sorry to hear about situation throughout the industry, not just BA. There may well be more employees facing redundancy with other airlines.

I was offered an early retirement package by bmi, having worked for them for over thirty years, in 2001. This was in the wake of 9/11 the over a quarter of the pilots were facing redundancy. I accepted the offer and have no regrets whatsoever. I suggest those considering going for this option seek professional advice, possibly from BALPA.

I was taken out to dinner on my retirement by several pilots who had faced redundancy who just wanted to say thank you, a very kind thought.

I've never for one moment over twenty years of retirement regretted my decision.

With my very best wishes to each and everyone of you.



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