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-   -   IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/631988-iag-ba-restructuring-may-cost-12-000-jobs.html)

kungfu panda 17th Jun 2020 11:31

You're totally missing the point. Very obviously Piloting an aircraft and managing a crew requires a much higher level of skill than driving a tube train.

Unfortunately in the UK that will not justify higher salaries for two reasons:

1. Unconstrained training of new Pilots meaning a flood of young Pilots coming to the market (It is a market). From next year, those young British Pilots will be limited to a UK job. British Pilots do form the majority of Pilots on a per country basis in the EU.
Even amongst US part 121 Airlines a 4 year degree is generally required to be a Pilot.

2. No strong Pilot Unions.

If I started an Airline right now in the UK and offered £30,000 per year for an experienced Captain, I would be overwhelmed with applications. Mostly from middle East and Asia returnees. These people are high quality though. Their safety records are not lower than BA.

krismiler 17th Jun 2020 12:00

For those who don't watch the news, Beijing is back in lockdown due to an outbreak of COVID - 19 with hundreds of flights grounded.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cancelled.html

Any youngsters here in their 30s and 40s would do well to research the Australian Pilots dispute of 1989, those of us in our 50s and 60s remember it. Avoid having a battle with Willie Walsh at the moment, everything is in his favour and you will lose. If everyone gets sacked the union will take years to recover and re-establish itself with the new pilot body. The current times are unprecedented and sacrifices need to be made, bend a bit to avoid being broken. Stick together and when the good times return you will have a strong and established union already in place to do some hard bargaining and make up lost ground.

This is simply taking a realistic view of the situation, nothing is in the pilots favour at all at the moment.

BTW The leader of the Australian Pilots in 1989 spent the next 5 years unemployed and eventually got a co pilot job in Indonesia.

777JRM 17th Jun 2020 12:31


Originally Posted by kungfu panda (Post 10813326)
You're totally missing the point. Very obviously Piloting an aircraft and managing a crew requires a much higher level of skill than driving a tube train.

Unfortunately in the UK that will not justify higher salaries for two reasons:

1. Unconstrained training of new Pilots meaning a flood of young Pilots coming to the market (It is a market). From next year, those young British Pilots will be limited to a UK job. British Pilots do form the majority of Pilots on a per country basis in the EU.
Even amongst US part 121 Airlines a 4 year degree is generally required to be a Pilot.

2. No strong Pilot Unions.

If I started an Airline right now in the UK and offered £30,000 per year for an experienced Captain, I would be overwhelmed with applications. Mostly from middle East and Asia returnees. These people are high quality though. Their safety records are not lower than BA.


Possible BS.


1. Where is this ‘flood’ of young pilots? Who would enter the profession now? The British ones are not limited to the UK; there are things called ‘work-visas’ for anyone who sees beyond the EU.

2. So what. Wasn’t it ever so?


How would your start-up airline cope with training demand when this is happening (already approaching 50% recovery?):

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....78e89235c.jpeg


wiggy 17th Jun 2020 12:36

Without wishing to join the gloom and doom brigade AFAIK this is a world wide pandemic - I wonder how many countries are going to be issuing work visas for non national pilots for the foreseeable future and in what sort of numbers?

Jet II 17th Jun 2020 13:32


Originally Posted by 777JRM (Post 10813379)

1. Where is this ‘flood’ of young pilots? Who would enter the profession now? The British ones are not limited to the UK; there are things called ‘work-visas’ for anyone who sees beyond the EU.


But with who? - airlines around the globe are slashing pilot numbers and going bankrupt every day. Only yesterday Thai went into Chapter 11 and plans to get rid of 30% of their staff.

Yes the industry will start to recover at some point but it is going to be a very long haul and dont forget that Aviation is facing 2 big threats at the moment - you have the worldwide pandemic that may drag on for several years with spikes coming and going, and then when that is finally done you will have the Green Lobby who will continue to try and reduce the size of the aviation industry so as to save the planet.

I'm not so sure that this is a temporary blip and everything will be back to normal in 6 months - I regretfully think it could be a seismic change in the whole structure of the industry.

Whitemonk Returns 17th Jun 2020 13:52


Originally Posted by Time Traveller (Post 10813193)
I'm guessing at £84,456 for all.

The soft underbelly for an attack on salaries was always there, but no-one cared because "first they came for....."

Jet2 Captain's sitting at home on furlough are getting paid more than this right now, and you lot are advocating less than this for a BA Captain going forward? Unbelievable. Yes long haul will recover slower, but IAG have ten times the resources of DTG, this has nothing to do with money, this is an attack on your profession from some small minded people and you lot are trying to give them excuses. Absolute scrubs the lot of you.

TURIN 17th Jun 2020 13:58


...the Green Lobby who will continue to try and reduce the size of the aviation industry so as to save the planet.
The green lobby have been found out when it comes to air travel. Everyone is now aware that it was a con. Politicians liked them as it allowed them to add taxes to tickets under the guise of saving the planet. The public have got wise, Air Passenger Duty may well be revoked to help kick start the industry.

Jet II 17th Jun 2020 14:27


Originally Posted by TURIN (Post 10813446)
Air Passenger Duty may well be revoked to help kick start the industry.

Well it was only a week ago that the Government refused to commit to any suspension of APD let alone revocation - the best they can offer is a possible 'review' of aviation taxation sometime in the future.

kungfu panda 17th Jun 2020 14:29


Originally Posted by 777JRM (Post 10813379)
Possible BS.


1. Where is this ‘flood’ of young pilots? Who would enter the profession now? The British ones are not limited to the UK; there are things called ‘work-visas’ for anyone who sees beyond the EU.

2. So what. Wasn’t it ever so?


How would your start-up airline cope with training demand when this is happening (already approaching 50% recovery?):

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....78e89235c.jpeg

Possible sticking your head in the sand...

777JRM 17th Jun 2020 15:09


Originally Posted by Jet II (Post 10813425)
But with who? - airlines around the globe are slashing pilot numbers and going bankrupt every day. Only yesterday Thai went into Chapter 11 and plans to get rid of 30% of their staff.

Yes the industry will start to recover at some point but it is going to be a very long haul and dont forget that Aviation is facing 2 big threats at the moment - you have the worldwide pandemic that may drag on for several years with spikes coming and going, and then when that is finally done you will have the Green Lobby who will continue to try and reduce the size of the aviation industry so as to save the planet.

I'm not so sure that this is a temporary blip and everything will be back to normal in 6 months - I regretfully think it could be a seismic change in the whole structure of the industry.


True, lots of unemployment on the cards, but positive news out of Oxford again, this time a steroid treatment against Covid seems to be yielding good results.

Will we lockdown every time Covid reappears?
Maybe the 99.5% healthy people who get mild/no symptoms have had enough?


Tartiflette Fan 17th Jun 2020 17:19

That is for people who were seriously ill on a ventilator, which is far from everybody. Don't be pessimistic, but equally, don't talk it up wildly.

MikeAlpha320 17th Jun 2020 23:54

Sometimes I wonder why I bother coming on here... some posts are quite frankly total tosh. This is a 'professional' pilots forum- I am fairly sure some on this forum have about as much knowledge of aviation and commercial flight crew as my golden lab.

ZFT 18th Jun 2020 02:21


Originally Posted by Jet II (Post 10813425)
But with who? - airlines around the globe are slashing pilot numbers and going bankrupt every day. Only yesterday Thai went into Chapter 11 and plans to get rid of 30% of their staff.

Yes the industry will start to recover at some point but it is going to be a very long haul and dont forget that Aviation is facing 2 big threats at the moment - you have the worldwide pandemic that may drag on for several years with spikes coming and going, and then when that is finally done you will have the Green Lobby who will continue to try and reduce the size of the aviation industry so as to save the planet.

I'm not so sure that this is a temporary blip and everything will be back to normal in 6 months - I regretfully think it could be a seismic change in the whole structure of the industry.

Where did you get the idea TG are reducing staff?

They have announced NO staff cut backs for foreseeable future just last week.

krismiler 18th Jun 2020 04:40

https://www.thaienquirer.com/14392/t...risis-in-2020/


Thai Airways International

Thai Airways is due in Bankruptcy court on August 17.

The company is trying to keep its assets from being seized by creditors.

The company says that it cannot refund tickets and has grounded its planes since the end of March.

The company says it will likely have to let go of a significant portion of its workforce.

The government has appointed more government officials to try and make the state-owned enterprise more privately owned.

The company is a mess.

ZFT 18th Jun 2020 05:10

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business...s-safe-for-now

Extract from above 13th June report

The management of Thai Airways International (THAI) insists job terminations are not in the pipeline for at least a year even though downsizing the fleet and cutting routes are part of its six-point strategy to turn the business around.

The assurance was given by acting THAI president, Chakkrit Parapuntakul, to airline staff on Thursday during a meeting to clarify the debt-rehabilitation process after the Central Bankruptcy Court agreed to examine its rehabilitation plan in August.

lostinspace89 18th Jun 2020 09:55

https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airwa...rsed-pay-cuts/


Qatar Airways, like many airlines, has struggled to stay afloat during the current pandemic. This has forced it to introduce pay cuts and make several redundancies. Chief Executive Akbar Al Baker offered hope to the carrier’s employees this week when he said that the pay cuts will be reversed once flying demand returns.

Job priority to be given to laid-off staff



It is funny how we've come to a world where a ME airline tries to protect its employees (with no unions to negotiate) rather than a British airline with a multitude of unions and government officials getting nowhere. Are we really living in the correct region?

Food for thought

TURIN 18th Jun 2020 15:05

There is a rumour going around that BA Pilots have been offered an enhanced VR package. It is also rumoured that all staff are to be offered a similarly enhanced VR deal in an email.

Can anyone here confirm this?

GS-Alpha 18th Jun 2020 16:11

I certainly would not describe it as enhanced. In my particular case, I am financially better off to wait for compulsory redundancy.

wiggy 18th Jun 2020 16:23

Wot GS-Alpha said....

It might be slightly better than CR for some but it depends on circumstances.

I gather is nowhere near as "enhanced"/generous as the packages some are being offered in one or two other parts of the UK aviation industry.

777JRM 18th Jun 2020 16:54

Also heard a rumour that AF are offering 2 years pay!
Not sure if it is tax-free in France?

Of course, the UK taxes you if you lose your job; only the first £30k is tax-free.


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