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-   -   IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/631988-iag-ba-restructuring-may-cost-12-000-jobs.html)

TURIN 16th Jun 2020 22:45

GMB and UNITE aren't doing what WW asks so why should BALPA?

blimey 16th Jun 2020 22:49

So can we passengers expect 30 000+ really p*ssed off customer facing staff, a poisonous atmosphere on the flight deck if people are brought in to replace refusenics, and about 12 000 really angry people with cars to bring T5 to a halt on a daily basis for the foreseeable future. I'm not sure WW has thought this through.

Compare and contrast with the Aer Lingus proposals.

kendrick47247 16th Jun 2020 23:34


Originally Posted by polax52 (Post 10812819)
I've been through this, you'd save your own skin. Whatever you say on PPrune.
As Northern Monkey said, it's not the likely scenario. It is however going through the mind of WW.
In reality BALPA have to recommend whatever WW decides or risk "the nuclear option".

Dont feed this troll.

Dannyboy39 17th Jun 2020 05:54


Originally Posted by Jet II (Post 10812321)
As a previous poster pointed out, it used to be the case where the airlines paid for training but at the same time they restricted access to that training so that only a few people were lucky enough to become a pilot and thus supply never exceeded demand - now the system is more 'democratised' and anyone with the money can fulfil their dream.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into this - but do people really want the old way? No one should have any barriers to employment, regardless of background, although with the new way, having to hit the Bank of Mum & Dad is hardly a perfect system either.

krismiler 17th Jun 2020 06:22

Once the airline establishes a new normal for pay it will take a long time to work back up. If Captains are on 70 000 and F/Os 50 000 a year it will be difficult to justify any increase once things settle down. There won't be any shortage of quality applicants for pilot jobs and fares need to be kept down with consumers watching every penny. A request for a 30-40% pay rise in a couple of years time won't get much sympathy from anyone and wouldn't even be taken seriously if the airline is still losing money.

The terms and conditions we enjoyed were arrived at incrementally over a long period of time and whilst they may be reduced in a big chunk, they won't be given back in the same manner.

777JRM 17th Jun 2020 07:25

Apparently Aer Lingus have a temporary deal on the table; anyone know the details?

Does Irish law (and Spanish law in the case of Iberia) protect them from the shafting that BA employees are facing?

Whitemonk Returns 17th Jun 2020 08:17


Originally Posted by krismiler (Post 10812999)
Once the airline establishes a new normal for pay it will take a long time to work back up. If Captains are on 70 000 and F/Os 50 000 a year it will be difficult to justify any increase once things settle down. There won't be any shortage of quality applicants for pilot jobs and fares need to be kept down with consumers watching every penny. A request for a 30-40% pay rise in a couple of years time won't get much sympathy from anyone and wouldn't even be taken seriously if the airline is still losing money.

The terms and conditions we enjoyed were arrived at incrementally over a long period of time and whilst they may be reduced in a big chunk, they won't be given back in the same manner.

Absolutely ridiculous figures being pulled out of people's arses on this thread. Do you seriously think any UK airline would get away with reducing long term pilot salaries by more than 50%? Especially an airline as heavily unionised as BA? I'm no fan of Balpa, they are weak at the core and don't have the cojones of their French/Spanish or American contemporaries, but if you really think BA would get away with Captain salaries of 70k you are an idiot, and good luck finding anyone who would fly 900 hours a year for 30 years for that money and live within a commutable distance to LHR.

kungfu panda 17th Jun 2020 08:35


Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns (Post 10813101)
Absolutely ridiculous figures being pulled out of people's arses on this thread. Do you seriously think any UK airline would get away with reducing long term pilot salaries by more than 50%? Especially an airline as heavily unionised as BA? I'm no fan of Balpa, they are weak at the core and don't have the cojones of their French/Spanish or American contemporaries, but if you really think BA would get away with Captain salaries of 70k you are an idiot, and good luck finding anyone who would fly 900 hours a year for 30 years for that money and live within a commutable distance to LHR.

On the other hand, it's odds on that Pilot Salaries will be slashed in the coming days. So if people quoting 70k are idiots then what number would you put on it?

Whitemonk Returns 17th Jun 2020 08:45


Originally Posted by kungfu panda (Post 10813120)
On the other hand, it's odds on that Pilot Salaries will be slashed in the coming days. So if people quoting 70k are idiots then what number would you put on it?

If 70k is your figure then that would have to be for a 50% contract, 450 hrs a year or month on/ month off. We are already on the other side of this pandemic, don't be fooled by the doom and gloomers.

stormin norman 17th Jun 2020 08:52

What planet are you on .The Economy and passenger numbers wont start up like the press of a switch.

kungfu panda 17th Jun 2020 09:00


Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns (Post 10813130)
If 70k is your figure then that would have to be for a 50% contract, 450 hrs a year or month on/ month off. We are already on the other side of this pandemic, don't be fooled by the doom and gloomers.

Ok. So BALPA and WW are having tea and biscuits and talking about the weather.

guy_incognito 17th Jun 2020 09:34

It's understandable that people don't want to face up to the reality, but ultimately it comes down to supply and demand. Airlines could literally offer any salary they choose to at the moment and there will be a huge excess of applications. 70k for a captain would seem about right as it's about the same as tube drivers make when overtime is taken into account.

As I previously posted, the goal is the minimum acceptable level of safety for the lowest possible cost. Highly restrictive SOPs and very reliable aircraft that are relatively straight forward to operate the vast majority of the time mean that there is no need to pay top whack for highly experienced people, when the job can be done to the minimum regulatory standard by far less experienced and cheaper pilots. It's simply a bonus for the airlines that for the foreseeable future they'll be able to get the highly experienced people for the same cost as the newbies.

Time Traveller 17th Jun 2020 09:41


. 70k for a captain
I'm guessing at 84,456 for all.

The soft underbelly for an attack on salaries was always there, but no-one cared because "first they came for....."

kungfu panda 17th Jun 2020 10:01


Originally Posted by Time Traveller (Post 10813193)
I'm guessing at 84,456 for all.

The soft underbelly for an attack on salaries was always there, but no-one cared because "first they came for....."

If you're going to pluck a figure from the air, that, to me, looks like a good one. The question is, would BALPA collapse, if they offered that to the membership?

Time Traveller 17th Jun 2020 10:03


Originally Posted by kungfu panda (Post 10813216)
The question is, would BALPA collapse, if they offered that to the membership?

Can but hope! (Cue incoming)!

Whitemonk Returns 17th Jun 2020 10:16


Originally Posted by stormin norman (Post 10813135)
What planet are you on .The Economy and passenger numbers wont start up like the press of a switch.

I'm on the same planet as the one where the financial markets are pricing a swift recovery. IAG have been making profits in the billions for years on your current contracts, FD and CC both, and at the first sign of a tough year you lot want to bend over and take less than half? By that token if you think it acceptable for a BA captain to get paid 70k in 2021, then I would argue they should get paid 250k in 2023 when you can be sure IAGs profits will be in the billions again. Look how many ASR's and close calls happen on a daily basis in a career that is still sought after, start paying Captain's 70k and watch the incident rate skyrocket as people stop giving a shit. Also clearly none of you are involved in training, it's hard enough for highly motivated professionals when you put them under a bit of pressure, let's see what happens when you are scraping the barrel.

777JRM 17th Jun 2020 10:36


Originally Posted by kungfu panda (Post 10813216)
If you're going to pluck a figure from the air, that, to me, looks like a good one. The question is, would BALPA collapse, if they offered that to the membership?


No, but the airline would.

The shareholders would then have an EGM and sack the board.




judge11 17th Jun 2020 10:38

' it's about the same as tube drivers make when overtime is taken into account.'

Are you seriously comparing flightcrew to a tube driver? If you are a pilot then you're a disgrace to the profession; if you aren't you are talking through your nether region.

krismiler 17th Jun 2020 10:48

At the moment I'm sitting at home not having flown for 3 months and getting about 45% of what I was getting before. If company forecasts are correct, around the end of the year I would be back to about 80% of previous earnings. I consider myself lucky to still be employed with the prospect of returning to flying, many former colleagues who left for better jobs in the Middle East or China have been laid off with no return insight.

Whilst BA is in a better position than hub airlines in the ME, profitable operations are still a long way off. An interim deal will probably be needed whilst the company is haemorrhaging money, similar to British Leyland in the late 1970s. Whilst the immediate pandemic is coming to an end, the economic effects are just beginning. If my income returns to its previous level by the end of next year I'll be surprised and delighted.

Striking pilots would have very little public sympathy as their demands would be seen as totally unrealistic and unreasonable. Picketing the terminals at Heathrow holding signs demanding 130 000 a year whilst the company is losing millions a day won't get much support. Militant unions such as the miners, printers and Australian domestic pilots in 1989, have been broken before, and the Aussies were in a much stronger position when they started then BA pilots are in at the moment.

Australia is a vast country heavily dependent on air travel for domestic transportation where as BA domestic is virtually negligible. For any international BA flights, pax can simply switch to any number of competing airlines. Ansett and Australian airlines had to get pilots to move to Australia and convert their licences, where as the UK has hundreds of unemployed pilots already type rated and ready to go.

Get the best deal you can in the present circumstances and once normality returns it's time to push for a return to previous conditions or better.

FlipFlapFlop 17th Jun 2020 11:04


Originally Posted by judge11 (Post 10813265)
' it's about the same as tube drivers make when overtime is taken into account.'

Are you seriously comparing flightcrew to a tube driver? If you are a pilot then you're a disgrace to the profession; if you aren't you are talking through your nether region.

Just ignore him. He is here to wind us up. He is not alone.


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