Yes but the creditors (banks etc) will take a huge hit and may go bust themselves, what with everything else that is going on

It is a bit childish (not insulting any of you particularly) to think, that after a crisis like this was over (hopefully in about 3-6 month time) on the following Monday we'll all just go back to work like nothing's happened. It is a mistake to imagine, that pumping X billions of FIAT confetti into failing private firms, would make a difference. Companies will disappear, people will suffer. Then we'll still end up with the interest payments to private central banks on trillions of confetti printed by them. I fail to see how the survival of current airlines (and air travel in general) becomes priority in the near term.

Has anyone compiled a list of airlines which have either stopped operating or announced a date?

I honestly think the entire air transport industry is in a lot of trouble. If this takes too long and current limitations stay in place, demand for air travel could be down to the level of the 1960's. No one will want to buy any aircraft or hire any crew left over after any airline going bankrupt. This will also mean that no one will buy any new planes, because we have several hundreds standing around not being used, basically available for free.

Exactly what this thread is all about. I don't want to agree with your pessimistic outlook, and I wish I had a counter argument but I don't. I am sure we all look forward to hearing from anyone who does.

A chap further up makes a point about Covid killing mostly older folk. This is true, and this itself will have a profound impact on certain parts of the market. Partly from a smaller market, partly a greater fear. Cruises, key amongst that age group, killed off. There goes a wedge of traffic. Florida, Arizona, Vegas etc, suddenly the sunbirds from the north aren’t coming. Benidorm, Costa del Sol etc. Could also fatally undermine tour operators who tend to have older demographic

Survival
 

We all agree that this is the Mother of all Crises for the global economy and especially for all travel related businesses. The question of this post is about survival. Governments will save what must be saved to allow the economy to bounce back. This means that we will have to go back to nationalised airlines. No country can survive and prosper without a national carrier that can cover business essential routes, including cargo etc but also unprofitable routes must be covered e.g. domestically. Capitalism is much better than anything else however it is still not perfect in its present form and this virus will prove it. It is still the best system available to us however it can be greatly improved and it will be certainly enhanced after the virus has ended. The standard rules of capitalism cannot be applied during this crisis. We cannot end up with millions of unemployed and a very high % of companies going bankrupt. It would mean social unrest which will not be allowed on this occasion.

Surely this crisis is the start of a golden age in aviation and global transport.
After this experience, no government is going to accept the current slipshod health system, the downside is just too high.
So I expect really effective viral health monitoring and countermeasures to become the norm. That will drag the other health and customs systems with it
With luck, we might be able to return to the pre WW1 era when passports were unheard of. and people could go anywhere as the spirit moved them.

It aint the killing of us old folks that affect pilots. It's the short time but long enough impact of the younger working folks not flying that is the problem for this thread subject. It's bad enough that a large population will be on some kind of self isolation (14 days etc.) coupled with a similar population that will take a month or more to recover enough to fly.

I'm tipping that when the dust finally settles, only a handful of mega airlines will remain. These will either have been nationalized, backed by middle east oil money, or resultant from take-overs and mergers. Some countries unable to afford their own national carrier will have to put pride and political differences aside and form alliances with like-minded neighbours to perhaps run one airline owned jointly by several governments.
Those countries which provide aid to poorer nations would do well to insist no aid money goes towards propping up unviable small airlines. Let them fail.
Would such mega airlines be efficient or profitable? Probably not - history tells us large aviation enterprises often do not run well because of infighting, bickering boards, bloated management structures, cronyism, corruption etc. But they will still be better placed to withstand losses than the public/private sector. Many investors have already lost their appetite for airlines, with more about to cut their losses and run.

I do tend to think that as and when restrictions are lifted, in the UK at least people will still want to go on holiday. It may well be though that travel habits go back to the old fashioned two weeks bucket and spade in the summer. That may bode well for the likes of TUI and Jet2.

The issue is not who, or what will survive, but what will the world look like after the pandemic. Within this we should consider what aviation might be required or be able to contribute, and with what expectation of how this would be achieved.
To varying extent there were preparations for this pandemic; these are being been severely tested, a stress test for the next one or similar.
So what is next, what do we have to be prepared for on a global level. Climate change is on the list, are we ready; floods, heat, starvation, and more pandemic.


The demands on aviation will be dictated by economics. People will still like to travel, but will they be able to afford it; will nations be able to afford aviation even if there is need. The situation post WW2 involved a lengthy period of recovery resulting in a very different world. The post pandemic world is unlikely to be of the same form or magnitude of change as post war, but it will be changed; to what, why, and when.
In considering when, the effect of climate change opposed to pandemic, is foreseeable, and as a defined point in time establishes a window for recovery post pandemic. This is not very long, and with weakened economic capacity to respond the most significant issue could be how individuals respond; and whatever the viewpoint is today, it will not be the same in six months.

Oil money has been very limited for well over a decade probable more like 15 years when it was +$100 a barrel, it has long been around $50 a barrel. That is close to cost for many companies/countries, not sure there is much "oil money" left when we are in the $20's a barrel, having a price war and a vast reduction in demand for the product.

After WW2 there was a boom in civil aviation, there will be another one as we come out of this. However it will be starting off a low base and it will take years to get back to 2019 levels.

Ummmmmmmmmmm
 

AA/ This is going to go on for a long, long time. It will not be over in 3 months. 1 year absolute minimum I think.

BB/ Until some form of practical vaccine is brought into widespread use its just going to get worse unless we adopt the Chinese approach of total shutdown.

CC/ The age of mass travel on the scale that was in place prior to this virus will not return for a very long time. If ever (I very much doubt it will). This is for a vast number of reasons not least off which is the global economic depression that will bite and bite very hard. People will be concentrating on food and shelter.

DD/ Once this is sorted we must address our complete economic and political approach to everything.

EE/ My goodness we need some leadership, especially in the UK. It will not come from our current PM Dominic Cummings nor from a 93 year old Head of State who along with her family has no idea of life in the real world.

FF/ I admit to some panic buying, two lovely bottles of malt whisky which I shall enjoy whilst I catch up on my reading and write my about my experiences over 33 years in the business which I doubt will see the light of day which is probably just as well.

GG/ Unless we get some strong leadership and proper organisation very soon. I dread the consequences that will follow!

Not just airlines..........I think that will have to carry over to the airports as well.

BAA got sold off, then that got forced to sell off by the competition regs, how many of these UK airports will survive this with no money coming in from Duty Free or landings fees etc.,etc....??

Yes airports as well...
 

Yes absolutely. This is unprecedented, the entire concept of the free market taking care of the economy is out of the window because of COVID19 and this was well predicated by Bill Gates several years ago: only governments can save the day.
Luckily governments can nowadays generate instantly unlimited quantities of electronic money (QE) which is a huge advantage. The old risk associated to printing money vs higher inflation is also obsolete. We will be fine only because of Governments injecting unlimited cash into the system. The Internet is a factor as we now basically live in an E-Money society. If this happened before the web we would be in trouble, both due to the time needed to print in large quantities but especially huge difficulties in distributing the cash during a pandemic. E-Money huge advantage thanks to the web.Nearly all travel related businesses will be saved by Governments, but then also the rest of the economic system will be saved, including other sectors beyond travel as this is a tsunami that is already in the history books.
The rebound will be the Mother of all the rebounds especially if there will be a vaccine or widespread immunity which will happen eventually, I am confident the rebound will be massive and much quicker than what we think now, this will be true especially if the virus will be stopped through new measures including new anti viral treatments and then finally a vaccine.
QE seems easy now: Governments cannot do QE constantly otherwise we will all stop going to work and societies will collapse however unlimited QE is the only option during a war and this is certainly a global war with no other solution.

From who - who do you have in mind?

…....that's the point I'm trying to make we lack credible effect leadership

But isn't that always the way?. In WW2 we started off with Chamberlain who many thought was insipidly useless, then we moved on to Churchill that many held the opinion was a warmongering drunkard, then in the 70's we had Sunny Jim Callaghan (Crisis? - what Crisis?), in the 80's we had strong leadership from the Iron Lady and half the country hated her!.

Have we every had credible effective leadership in a crisis?

I agree this is a moment in history where strong leadership and proper organisation are going to be vital.
I think that all the leaders are struggling and this is normal as this is so unprecedented, I personally do not like the way some of the leaders are dealing with this crisis, some are are not fit for purpose during a crisis of this magnitude. We need real leadership like the one of the Italian PM Giuseppe Conte who is not a professional politician however he is very smart and very calm under pressure and he has been able to make very difficult decisions in a very short period of time.
We need proper leadership, I agree and this is urgent.
To remain within the topic of PPrune, this is a very significant emergency in each country. It is a bit like the well known aircraft that had just lost all the engines close to the Hudson river a few years ago, we all know that the exceptional calibre of the Captain definitely made the difference and saved all those on board, well COVID19 is very similar, we cannot have a below average Capt at the front instead we need a top of the top Captain (e.g. Sully=Giuseppe) or the plane will just crash somewhere due to wrong decisions being taken, or no decision at all or too late. Obviously this is my personal opinion, those leaders who could do quite well in normal circumstances maybe they are not suitable at all for this massive crisis due to their personalities which are maybe incompatible with this type of crisis. Hopefully they will be surrounded by more suitable personalities to handle this crisis and we might be fine in the end.
We basically need the best possible Captain in each country's cockpit, the best do not necessarily have to be in charge 24/7 but the various Head of Govts need the smartest minds very close to them and daily for constant valuable advice and speedy decisions.
We are in uncharted territory, standard procedures are not applicable, same as Capt Sully, he intentionally ignored all standard procedures and therefore saved all pax.
We need very smart, calm, intelligent leaders. Scientists will probably be even more crucial for a speedy resolution.

I think right now we need to stand together, petty political arguments need to wait, we are in a major catastrophe, we need to be positive.

In these dark times I think this song from Israel is good

Bashana haba’a, neshev al hamirpeset venispor tziporim nodedot.
Next year we will sit on the porch And count all the migrating birds

Yeladim, bekhoufsha, yesakhakhu tofeset beyn habayit, oulebeyn hasadot.
Children on vacation will play catch Between the house and the fields

Od tire, od tire, kama tov yihye, bashana, bashana haba’a
You will see, you will see How good it will be
Next Year

Anavim adumim, yavshilu ad ha’erev veyugshu tzonenim lashulkhan.
Red grapes will ripen by evening And be served chilled to the table

Verukhot redumim, yis’u el em haderekh itonim yeshanim ve’anan.
Pleasant breezes will blow on to the roads Old newspapers and clouds

Od tire, od tire, kama tov yihye, bashana, bashana haba’a
You will see, you will see How good it will be
Next Year

Bashana haba’a, nifros kapot yadayim, mul ha’or hanigar halavan.
We will spread out our open hands Into the bright white light

Anafa levana, tifros ba’or knafayim vehashemesh tizrakh betokhan.
A white heron will spread force in light its wings And the sun will rise in their midst

Od tire, od tire, kama tov yihye, bashana, bashana haba’a
You will see, you will see How good it will be
Next Year

Bashana haba’a, neshev al hamirpeset venispor tziporim nodedot.
Next year we will sit on the porch And count all the migrating birds

Yeladim, bekhoufsha, yesakhakhu tofeset beyn habayit, oulebeyn hasadot.
Children on vacation will play catch Between the house and the fields

Next year

well said bad times

As a WHO official said in a recent interview with the New Scientist magazine ...

[shutdown] ...that's the hard part, but not the really hard part.

To actually stop the virus, [China] had to do rapid testing of any suspect cases, immediate isolation of anyone who was a confirmed or suspect case,
and then quarantine the close contacts for 14 days so they could figure out if they were infected. These were the measures that stopped transmission
in China, not the big travel restrictions and lock-downs.

Indeed, surveillance is key, and that is where Europe is lacking. The high mortality rate in Italy w.r.t. other countries indicates that their community transmission is vastly under-reported.

The measures indicated this evening by the UK PM are both fair and sensible.

And overdue.

Richard, et al,
Anything said in advance of a pandemic seems alarmist.
After a pandemic begins, anything one has said or done is inadequate.

No, Italy was a case study on what happens when containment and surveillance fail and community transmission runs rampant.

Ireland's response was a contrast to that of the UK for example and initial data seems to indicate less community transmission as a result.

And this is what China did - compared to the West :

For many years Aviation had a growth rate of circa 6% per annum. Various events have sought to change that - events such as the financial meltdown in 2008, SARS, 9/11 and so on. After a hiatus, Aviation resumed its growth rate. I suggest this will happen again, after about 18 months when a decent/proper medicine will come out to give most of the human race immunity from this virus. So by 2003 we will be back to a new normal.
The main risks to this are the virus adapting to fight the vaccine, and the vaccine availability being held up by greedy Companies. But the Governments should prevent the latter.
The most scary thing, in my view, is the various Western Governments becoming addicted to their new found spending powers, and to the other powers that they are currently working up.
Meanwhile, they will take their eyes off China and Iran. That is what causes me to worry.

No longer worried about Russia? What's happened? I am devastated. If we worried about Iran and China then darn sure we must worry about Russia!

" The old risk associated to printing money vs higher inflation is also obsolete"

Utter nonsense, care to guess where all those computer generated billions released into the economy though the magic of QE went too? Asset bubbles baby!!! And although governments try to hide inflation by nit picking numbers everyone who buys stuff with their own money is well aware you are now getting less stuff for more $, this is called Shrinkfaltion. There's no free lunch, even in a digital world.

Although a vaccine could be here in record time that is still 6 - 12 months away which means it will be late to the party, any treatment will only help decrease the number of deaths but not the spread and hospital beds needed.

Most think COVID 19 is the problem, however it was just pin that burst the bubble, it has exposed the disgusting mess that central banks have created though artificially low interest rates and QE. If the economy was a Diabetic overweight person with high blood pressure who had lost a ton of weight due to a virus, QE is like the doctors prescribing him/her an unhealthy diet in an attempt to get him back to his old weight. We are in this generations defining moment.

There was plenty of other nonsense in that post...

And that is exactly what they did again. QE for infinity and beyond!

{TLTR}

~2 trillions(!) in the US alone so far. This time they called it "unlimited" support (like there is such thing in a finite world). Together this with the zero (negative in real term) interest rates they wont even hide their intent any longer. And yes doing this simply to prop up (back to where it was ASAP or to even bigger) asset bubbles. (Privatize profits, share the losses)
Just look at the (dead-cat I suspect) "bounce" of D/J (and every stock exchanges) yesterday and today. Of course it is clearly based on "fundamentals". "Wall street posts best performance in almost 90 years" headlines all over. Despite the fact, that countries/economies around the world are in a deeper ****e then they were a day before, W/S's grown about 20% in a day. Now that is a successful day in the office. They haven't even closed the bailout deal in congress, yet stock/company "valuations" increased by billions of USD. In such a mad world anything can happen with one exception: "We will not waver; we will not tire; we will not falter, and we will not fail" ("we" doesn't stand for general public in case you wondered).

{EOF TLTR}

I have read that the UK gov isn't going to bailout airlines, but I guess then it is exactly what they are planing to do, just waiting until they can fleece the retail investors a bit more first. Spread more fear amongst the public, to be ready to change those pesky employee T&C's for the benefit of the owners without any resistance. Then share the losses with the plebs of course, "for the children".

And the peasants rejoice.

Government help and QE
 

I strongly disagree, the truth is that QE and low interest rates have been used and abused by Central Banks for several years and well before COVID-19 and the global economy was still healthy despite QE + low rates.
If what you say is actually true then it will be the end of the world soon which I do not think will be the case.
Governments have no other solution.
Would you stop QE and let millions of people lose their jobs and most companies shut down?
If governments stop all the QE assistance the consequences would be unthinkable. It would probably mean the extinction of human race as our existance is based on the existing economic system unless you can provide a different solution please?

Or perhaps the chance for some of the world's indigenous peoples to live in what used to be their homelands. (sorry, back to the thread)

So true
 

Yes so true :)

and the global economy was made to appear healthy despite QE + low rates. It is not healthy when you have negative (in real term) interest rates. It means there can not be paid any interest on your cash/savings. That is a complete failure and not a booming economy.
It is thinkable you just don't want to hear it, instead just want to kick the can down on the road.. the easy way out.
Sure:

Restore capitalism!

News of the day from France :
Orly airport announced this afternoon they are closing down the airport from 31 March UFN.
Roissy (CDG) traffic is down 89% and they will close 2 terminals , no date yet .
Air France current reduced capacity schedule ( max 10% of Summer schedule) will last for the next 2 months .

ambidextrous
 

Wait until the tide goes out and then see he's still wearing clothing or is now naked?