Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

UK to EASA

Old 7th May 2021, 17:59
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Paris
Posts: 9
That’s not what he’s asking.
It doesn’t require regulatory oversight of the CAA, for EASA to do the right thing and recognise previously held licences. They can do it unilaterally.

The fact they don’t want to, is baffling.
Reminiscent of returning Russian POWs, who were tried as traitors and sent to the Gulags.
Blake Seven is offline  
Old 7th May 2021, 19:00
  #142 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1,065
Big_D,

For the nth time thatís not what im saying! Itís really simple stuff guys, Jesus.
Contact Approach is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 06:48
  #143 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Narnia
Posts: 18
Blake Seven

There are many people in this situation, including myself. The UK Government led by Alexander de Pfeffel decided to leave professional qualifications and services in general outside the scope of the negotiations. Just to reiterate, it was a political choice.

As such, given that the EU is a rules-based trade organisation, there is no legal basis to recognise the licences.
Big_D is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 07:07
  #144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1,065
Why are you not able to grasp the simplicity of what I am saying?

Let me spell it out for you:

My argument has nothing to do with Brexit or the ECJ - nada, nothing, ziltch. The UK may have fallen out of EASA but that happened in 2021 not before.

People have paid money for something that was product EASA, they have the right, particularly if they conducted training in the EU, on EU reg aircraft, with EASA examiners, in full compliance with EASA regs to have that product restored, albeit under a new jurisdiction. Sod the UK, who cares. This has nothing to do with the UK directly, this is purely and simply about restoring what people worked for. They should have the right to have their previously sought qualifications acknowledged. A simple application to a member state for a new licence issue would suffice, as long as proof of compliance pre Brexit was assured, which would simply be any test completed pre 1 Jan 2021. Forget the UK licence, forget third country nonsense and just use the EASA course completion, skills test, ATPL results paperwork. Simple really.
Contact Approach is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 07:20
  #145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 25
Blake Seven

EU to the UK:
- Do you wish to make a deal on professional qualifications?

UK to the EU:
- No thanks.

EU to the UK:
- No problem. Your decision to be completely out then.

UK to the UK:
- Actually this might create some problems for our infrastructure. Let’s unilaterally recognise EASA Licenses.

UK to the EU:
- WHY WONT YOU RECOGNISE OUR LICENSES WHEN WE VALIDATE YOURS. THIS IS UNFAIR

…..a fairly large and bureaucratic organisation that has more important things to deal with, than disgruntled UK FCL holders. And a country that thinks that it is somehow an equal to a large multinational organisation that it wanted nothing to do with. EU is incredibly rule based and the current third country status was demanded by the UK. Within EASA there is no mechanism to recognise third country licenses; this sadly creates a very peculiar position for those third country license holders that were previously trained within EASA. This is a fact that was known and pointed out to the UK early on in the process, as highlighted in the CAA BREXIT website.

EU regulations have to be ratified by each member state, in order to become national law throughout the EASA membership. Not something that happens overnight. And quite frankly, where is the motivation to make this effort when currently the U.K. isn’t even honouring its existing trade deal with the EU and already asking (demanding) concessions from this deal…
bittersweetheart is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 07:40
  #146 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Narnia
Posts: 18
Contact Approach

Unfortunately, when we left in Jan 2021 our EASA licences became nothing more than an ICAO licence. It is not great, but this is what our elected politicians decided. Do not ask me why.

This is not limited to aviation. There is a huge human cost to de Pfeffel's political choices in various sectors of the economy, such as fishing, manufacturing, banking, professional services. All those people who studied in the UK got shafted by the de Pfeffel's administration.

If you live in a EU country I can only advise to lobby your MEP to change the policy and unilaterally recognise our previously held licences. However, given the recent actions of the de Pfeffel's administration, I would not hold my breath.
Big_D is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 07:57
  #147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 3,549
The problem Big D would be quickly solved in the UK Govt just admitted it had made a mistake (or rather had never thought about it ) and went back to into EASA - that only requires 1 country to do something - not 27
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 08:09
  #148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Narnia
Posts: 18
As I live in a constituency represented by an opposition MP I am not even going to bother to lobby to rejoin the EASA.

Things may change under a different administration, but for now we remain outside the EASA.
Big_D is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 08:32
  #149 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1,065
What has an EASA flight training course, completed in Spain 2020 got to do with Brexit, the UK gov or anything else you keep talking about, for the purpose of applying for a new Spanish EASA licence?
Contact Approach is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 08:41
  #150 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Sunnydale
Posts: 193
Because the U.K. CAA have been guardians of those licences and since the 1st of Jan there has been no official oversight of the CAA by EASA. So the U.K. CAA could have done anything to those licences without EASA officially knowing. We know they haven’t in practical terms but officially EASA doesn’t. It is bureaucracy pure and simple but that’s the whole point of a rules based organisation. It is that simple. Without official oversight since the first of Jan those licences no longer comply as EASA licences and so cannot be converted to them without following the official procedure. It comes down to as simple a statement as rules is rules. And EASA (nor any EASA member NAA) cannot unilaterally change their own rules without approval through the EU rules making mechanism. But as has been stated it is what the U.K. wished for and has left MANY professionals high and dry.
back to Boeing is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 09:00
  #151 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1,065
Again, that is not what i am saying.

Why are EASA course completion certificates and skills tests completed far away from the UK not recognised for the purpose of applying for an initial EASA licence with a new member state. As an initial licence application!
Contact Approach is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 09:08
  #152 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Narnia
Posts: 18
back to Boeing

Not just the professionals, but pensioners abroad as well. But this is what 40% of the voters supported in the 2019 GE, so can't complaint.
Big_D is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 09:26
  #153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 25
I am sorry. But I have had it up to here with all this cakeism and self entitlement.

The UK is a third country to EASA. Exactly as they wanted to be. At their own initiative. Offer of EASA membership post BREXIT was declined by Boris.

The consequences of this decision by the UK, has been crystal clear and expressively laid out in writing. I believe the UK BREXIT Microsite went live early 2018?

Anybody who subsequently went and did pilot training in Spain in 2020, under the UK CAA oversight, failed to do their due diligence.

People who chose to remain in an employment which required a UK issued license, made that decision with the consequences available in black and white.

As one of Ďthe three millioní I was faced with the same tough decision as all UK license holders; Do I stay in my current employment and lose EASA privileges. Or do I uproot my wife and kids, sell the house and find a job in the EU? My airline refused to let me SOLI out, and I had to acknowledge I was in charge of my own destiny. Was it an easy decision? Hell no. Am I upset with EASA for simply sticking to the rulebook? For being completely transparent and clear from day one? Deep down I think everybody is well aware of who instigated the current situation and to date keep trying to fit a square pig in a round holeÖ

I am deeply sympathetic for everyone who got stuck between a rock and a hard place because of BREXIT.
BUT. People need to grow up and stop this cherry picking and end this blame game. You want back into EASA? Welcome back! If not, you are a third country and will be treated exactly like every other third country. Where your training was carried out or which license you held in the past is not relevant. That is the law.
bittersweetheart is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 09:47
  #154 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1,065
How very condescending, contradictory and frankly stupid. Uprooting during a pandemic in search of new pastures during the worst crises aviation has faced is simply poor judgement and questionable at best.

Still avoiding answering the obvious yet seemingly difficult question.

Do you care to answer why those pilots aren’t simply eligible to apply for a new Spanish licence off the back of their EASA training which was completed with full compliance to EASA standards? What purpose does resitting the exact same training course and skills tests completed all but a few months ago, at the exact same school, in the exact same aircraft with the exact same examiner actually prove?

P.S Some are EU citizens, resident currently in the EU.

Last edited by Contact Approach; 8th May 2021 at 10:02.
Contact Approach is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 09:51
  #155 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by Contact Approach View Post
How very condescending and contradictory. Still avoiding answering the obvious yet seemingly difficult question.

how so? The UK is a third country to EASA. Plain and simple. EASA rules do not allow for recognition of third country licenses. No special treatment. What else do you need to know?
bittersweetheart is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 10:08
  #156 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1,065
You are unable to recognise what it is i am getting at.
Contact Approach is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 10:20
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Paris
Posts: 9
Big_D

Yeah, that’s as I see it. But there’s a few conflated opinions on this thread.
Fwiw, I don’t include myself as seeking reissue off an EASA ticket but see a fair few colleagues now having their lives and that of their families turned upside down. Not their fault, advised against converting back to EASA by the Company, so what are they supposed to do?
Not only unable to work in the UK, but spurned by the EU/EASA machine.

Remember, these are EU citizens, not Brits/ 3rd country workers.
Blake Seven is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 10:24
  #158 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1,065
Blake Seven,

Finally! Thanks, its simply not a one size fits all kinda problem as you have rightly pointed out.
Contact Approach is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 10:25
  #159 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 25
I understand what you are getting at. But what a lot of people are trying to tell you, is that regardless of what you feel ‘should’ be the case with a former EASA License, this simply is not the way the law is written. You are arguing that a large multinational organisation of 30+ countries should re-write this law, which then has to be ratified by each individual member state. All of this because a former member state left the organisation. Yes?
bittersweetheart is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 10:32
  #160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Sunnydale
Posts: 193
Contact Approach

But it is something EASA is unable to do anything about. Ask the U.K. government to lobby the EU to make an exception.

I’m unsure who exactly you’re talking about in discussing your Spain ATO example. But it will be a limited amount of people.

EU students with a U.K. licence. Well the writing was on the wall and as has been said whilst spending 100k they should have been doing due diligence. I’m sorry but that’s the harsh reality of it.

U.K. students with a U.K. licence. They wouldn’t have the right to live and work in the EU anyway so only need an U.K. licence.

EU nationals living and working in the U.K. on 31st dec 2020 will still have the right to live and work in the U.K. either through settled or pre settled status. Pretty much every single EU national that was made redundant would have been made redundant in plenty of time to stay their SOLI out process. Those that weren’t made redundant can still use their U.K. licence.

so exactly on who’s behalf are you upset? Before you accuse me of arrogance. It’s bluntness
back to Boeing is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.