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Working Life After Flying

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Working Life After Flying

Old 11th May 2020, 16:35
  #121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Scotland
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Originally Posted by bulldog89 View Post
Are you really thinking that anyone is looking forward to hire pilots with an ATPL and an online course?

You'll be competing with guys more qualified and with more experience...I can tolerate bus/train driving, but when I read "project management" and stuff like that...Jesus...do you even know what project management is? You need to know the industry, the processes and to have at least two years of EXPERIENCE in a specific field before even dreaming of being able to work in a project management team, let alone being the project manager.

Any "project management", "six sigma", "5S", "8D" can teach you the methodology, but you'll still need working experience be able to do anything remotely useful.
I think unfortunately a number of pilots are deluding themselves. Your post is absolutely spot on.
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Old 11th May 2020, 16:48
  #122 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,797
Nope, not thinking that at all.

Maybe we have a very different understanding of what a Project Manager is or does. There are junior roles too. My angle was the IT one and after working 10 years full-time in IT and another 8 or so alongside my flying career, I've seen pretty much every role at every level. I've worked alongside former nurses, beauticians, firemen and panel beaters who were afforded their first IT opportunity at the place I met them. There's no denying that most professional vocations are difficult to enter without experience but what are you saying? that graduates don't ever get such roles? Also, not every opportunity is sourced via an open to the public application form. Hint hint.

Clearly, not everyone is going to get a job as A, B or C. My angle is simple.... Most pilots are very ambitious, great communicators, excellent networkers and quick learners. If we want to move out of aviation or even just want to diversify our skillset, we have attributes that make our success more likely than most others.
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Old 11th May 2020, 18:47
  #123 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Originally Posted by Superpilot View Post
Most pilots are very ambitious, great communicators, excellent networkers and quick learners. If we want to move out of aviation or even just want to diversify our skillset, we have attributes that make our success more likely than most others.
Not the attributes to have a ready made plan B though?
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Old 11th May 2020, 20:37
  #124 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
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Originally Posted by serf View Post
Not the attributes to have a ready made plan B though?
Never have a Plan B as it distracts from Plan A
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Old 11th May 2020, 23:52
  #125 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Blighty
Posts: 3,900
When I suggested IT, I wanted to make very clear that you are not going to get a job at Google on day 1, but you can get your foot in the door as an interim. If project management interests you, have a look at something like Prince2 and think about an initial job somewhere in Govt or a consultancy company - they tend to be much more interested in formal qualifications than having 5+ years of relevant experience.

If you're in the left seat at BA on 777s and in 6 months time are still happily in the left seat, then I really do hope you have a great time - it's clearly something you will have spent years working towards in your career. If however Covid messes up your plans...

Superpilot is right - if you don't start somewhere, you will never get anywhere.

Last edited by davidjohnson6; 12th May 2020 at 09:52.
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Old 12th May 2020, 01:16
  #126 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Italy
Age: 30
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Originally Posted by Superpilot View Post
Nope, not thinking that at all.

Maybe we have a very different understanding of what a Project Manager is or does. There are junior roles too. My angle was the IT one and after working 10 years full-time in IT and another 8 or so alongside my flying career, I've seen pretty much every role at every level. I've worked alongside former nurses, beauticians, firemen and panel beaters who were afforded their first IT opportunity at the place I met them. There's no denying that most professional vocations are difficult to enter without experience but what are you saying? that graduates don't ever get such roles? Also, not every opportunity is sourced via an open to the public application form. Hint hint.

Clearly, not everyone is going to get a job as A, B or C. My angle is simple.... Most pilots are very ambitious, great communicators, excellent networkers and quick learners. If we want to move out of aviation or even just want to diversify our skillset, we have attributes that make our success more likely than most others.
You clearly underestimate non-pilot competition.
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Old 12th May 2020, 07:17
  #127 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 17
Sadly I agree .
whilst most are busy ď chasing the dream ď, there is no plan B .... just a single minded determination to make it to the flight deck because thatís all they want to be .

Most Plan Bs Iím interested in , I find Iím a little too old to apply which is disappointing and as youíve said there are plenty of qualified applicants for the roles.

Fortuntely my level of distrust for this industry was such Iíve always spent carefully and in no way have I ever come close to spending what I used to earn
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Old 12th May 2020, 08:48
  #128 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
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Both previous posts exactly sum up the current situation : millions of jobs will be lost worldwide in many different fields, obviously including aviation which will be one of the primary targets. Thinking about reinventing yourself as a business analyst with an airline pilot only background is pure science fiction.
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Old 12th May 2020, 10:45
  #129 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Originally Posted by sonicbum View Post
Both previous posts exactly sum up the current situation : millions of jobs will be lost worldwide in many different fields, obviously including aviation which will be one of the primary targets. Thinking about reinventing yourself as a business analyst with an airline pilot only background is pure science fiction.
Then go get some IT support job fixing broken PCs (yes the salary will be low but it's relatively easy to get into and better than being unemployed), make sure you are well regarded internally in the company, and then when a business analysis role comes up, move within the company. Most firms prefer to have internal career progression as it raises employee morale
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Old 12th May 2020, 11:38
  #130 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Originally Posted by davidjohnson6 View Post
Then go get some IT support job fixing broken PCs (yes the salary will be low but it's relatively easy to get into and better than being unemployed), make sure you are well regarded internally in the company, and then when a business analysis role comes up, move within the company. Most firms prefer to have internal career progression as it raises employee morale
Timeframe?
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Old 12th May 2020, 13:32
  #131 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
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Originally Posted by bulldog89 View Post
Timeframe?
Next life.
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Old 26th May 2020, 21:22
  #132 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: This side of the river Tweed
Posts: 16
Pre covid, I considered my salary to be fair compensation for the many downsides of airline flying. Given that we are all now going to have to face a haircut (and not just the lockdown variety) there must come a point when the job is just no longer worth it. I wonder if anyone else has a bottom line?

Last edited by Satoshi Nakamoto; 27th May 2020 at 17:56.
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Old 26th May 2020, 23:36
  #133 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: England
Posts: 3
Prior to Covid19 I was already digging my escape tunnel from aviation. I've been flying since 1995 and having hit 50 a few years ago, I started to become more aware of the very negative impact that flying was having on my health and my relationships with my family. To be the richest man in the graveyard is not one of my ambitions.

Due to Covid19 I last flew at the beginning of March and I personally haven't missed the job at all. I feel more relaxed than I've ever felt and sleep better than I've ever slept....no more am I going to bed at half seven in the evening, worrying whether or not I will hear the alarm which is due to wake me at 0300 for the early check-in. My relationships with my family and friends are better than they've ever been, life has slowed down and I'm enjoying every day. I still have no idea whether or not I will be made redundant, I will just have to swing with the punches but rest assured I am planning for the worst (best?) case scenario.

My big turning point in flying came several years ago when I did a pension review. I found out some basic information :-
What was the value my fund?
What happens to the fund if I die before my wife?
What happens to the fund when we both die?
If I go down the annuity route, what is the likely rate I would get on retirement?
How much was my 25% tax free lump sum and what could I do with it to generate an income?
What income would the remaining 75% provide?
What is the life expectancy of pilot after retirement?

I realised that even though my pension fund was quite large, I would be retiring on a very meagre income in comparison to my current Captains salary. After my Oh *uck moment and a bit of blind panic I started reading everything that I could to do with pensions. I learned that through my property business, it was possible for me to legally access the pot of money that forms my fund. I was amazed to learn that I could access it immediately (I was 50), and that through my business, I could utilise that fund to create a tax efficient income now. At the same time I could also build a trust which would be passed to my family tax free and in full should I die.
Even though I have full access to my pension fund via my business, it remains uncrystallised and I'm still free to contribute the maximum amount to it each year.

Since that 'Oh *uck' moment I've worked hard to make my plans a reality and to be quite honest Covid has cemented my decision, its given me the time to expand on my plans and to bring some of them forwards. I definitely do not want to be reliant on some greedy, bonus hungry airline CEO/COO etc to provide for my family and our lifestyle for any longer than I have to.
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Old 27th May 2020, 06:07
  #134 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: The EU
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Can we assume that you'll be the first to raise your hand for voluntary redundancy then? Save the job of somebody who doesn't have a property business and a "quite large" pension fund - more likely a "quite large" training debt, student loan and, if they're lucky, a mortgage to pay.

If only every captain who spends the bulk of days complaining about the job in amongst talking about their three properties, businesses, pension funds and expensive cars would do the honourable thing and step aside, there wouldn't be a need for people to be seeking ideas on an internet forum about what to do when their career is decimated thirty years before retirement.
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Old 27th May 2020, 06:52
  #135 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Thumbs up

Originally Posted by Vokes55 View Post
Can we assume that you'll be the first to raise your hand for voluntary redundancy then? Save the job of somebody who doesn't have a property business and a "quite large" pension fund - more likely a "quite large" training debt, student loan and, if they're lucky, a mortgage to pay.

If only every captain who spends the bulk of days complaining about the job in amongst talking about their three properties, businesses, pension funds and expensive cars would do the honourable thing and step aside, there wouldn't be a need for people to be seeking ideas on an internet forum about what to do when their career is decimated thirty years before retirement.

This!!!

Oh and don't forget the complaints about the tax bills for the pension pot being so big!

I flew with a lovely bloke a number of years ago who told me all about the house he and his sailing chum had purchased for a meagre 380k to keep their gear in. Apparently it was a must to have their sails etc so close to the boat. Not being a sailor, still loaded up with training debt and having recently struggled onto the housing ladder I politely excused myself for a few minutes for a quick Basil Fawlty style 'BASTARD!!!!' shout in the toilet.



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Old 27th May 2020, 07:18
  #136 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: England
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Originally Posted by Vokes55 View Post
Can we assume that you'll be the first to raise your hand for voluntary redundancy then? Save the job of somebody who doesn't have a property business and a "quite large" pension fund - more likely a "quite large" training debt, student loan and, if they're lucky, a mortgage to pay.

If only every captain who spends the bulk of days complaining about the job in amongst talking about their three properties, businesses, pension funds and expensive cars would do the honourable thing and step aside, there wouldn't be a need for people to be seeking ideas on an internet forum about what to do when their career is decimated thirty years before retirement.
Why not? As long as the package offered gives enough for me to survive for the interim.

BTW, don't tar everyone with the same brush. I am not a captain that moans about the job all day, I enjoy it when I'm there but I don't miss it when I'm not. I still have a long way to go before 'retirement'. I still have debt, I still have a mortgage to pay for and I also have kids to raise. However I've chosen not to waste my money on 'designer' goods or expensive leased cars. Instead I have invested it in assets that will bring a lifelong income. I continue to invest except that since I woke up to the fact that traditional pensions are next to useless, and after I realised that I could access my pension fund at any age below age 55, I now have sufficient capital to achieve my goals in significantly less time.
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Old 27th May 2020, 07:32
  #137 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 801
The last two posts are fairly predictable in that they concentrate on what Bendig has rather than what he/she is saying. The reason people like Bendig probably won't be lining up to take redundancy is that so few of them understand their own financial position in any sort of detail. Bendig and Co. won't retire early because all of a sudden you have NO INCOME and a lot of outgoings. Unless you've spent a lot of time planning your exit, the reality of leaving the world of a regular pay cheque is plain scary.
The counter argument to the young pilot from the older is, if you lose your job you have the time to come back and make good the damage. I could lose my job and never get another in my lifetime remaining.
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Old 27th May 2020, 19:44
  #138 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: This side of the river Tweed
Posts: 16
Meanwhile you have so called skygods bragging on Linkedin that they are willing to fly for food. I weep for my career.
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Old 27th May 2020, 22:02
  #139 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 2
Chartered Surveyor

Speaking as someone who used to be in aviation and dreamed of becoming a pilot, which never happened mainly due to money and the risk I just didn't want to take at the time. I just thought I would share something that may give you some guidance into a career in Surveying.
​​​​​​
With everything in aviation being pretty poorly paid below ATC or at the pointy end, I left the industry entirely and became an estate agent, this gave me some experience to get into a surveying firm and qualify as an associate of RICS surveyor. Pay starts around £40k plus, but I know experienced guys that are making 6 figures.

You don't have to have experience to join a firm as you can pay around £10k to a company called SAVA to do a home based learning course, similar to Open University.

Good thing about being a surveyor is in a crap market you will get plenty of repossession work. Always based at home, can be finished by lunchtime some days and weekends off!

I appreciate that it's a difficult time for all of you and this post maybe completely irrelevant but if it's of help to anyone, I'm more than happy to answer questions.
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Old 28th May 2020, 09:27
  #140 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: somewhere in the middle
Posts: 226
These are all good ideas, but as macdo alludes to, they all take time. I actually looked at surveying a few years ago, as something to work towards in spare time and maybe do as well as flying. Itís a minimum 12 month course (double that if you distance learn), to get to the entry level standard (a way off £40k p.a. too). I can imagine how the conversation goes - ďHello bank manager, Iíd like to take a 12 month mortgage holiday to spend 10 grand on a course that might get me a job earning half my old salary maybe.Ē

Itís crap. All these ideas are good for is long term planning, 2-5 years to get back to a reasonable middle class existence (and nowhere near our previous lifestyles). Itís going to be an absolute bunfight over the next 18 months just to keep the lights on.

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