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Working Life After Flying

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Working Life After Flying

Old 5th May 2020, 09:50
  #81 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: gatwick
Posts: 4
Having the support of family and partners at this time is increasingly important, although what I really don't want is the sympathy vote, food parcels and embarrassed looks about birthday presents and household expenses. I have 2 young chidden, they don't understand the whole thing and it is important that we as parents send the message that "life goes on" .Accepting the fact it will probably be 18 months to 2 years before anything crops up on the aviation front I'm applying to places where I think I can adapt my skill set and become a team member, rather than try and work in isolation. My shots so far have been: NHS Paramedic training, Civilian Jobs at Police, National Trust park wardens, and Volunteer Life boat crew! rather selfishly I also considered roles which a 6 year boy may want his dad to do!. The world has changed, we have to change with it for our own sanity. My farther was 36 years in the Navy and when he retired at 95 he was literally a "lost soul", OK the armed forces have social clubs and venues for retired folks that allow them to bond and share war stories etc, but this was really to allow "decompression". I've a family regimented daily routine and keeping self discipline and standards will help if and when I get called up for an interview. Good luck to all..
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Old 5th May 2020, 10:43
  #82 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Whitehall
Posts: 2
Why be so incredibly defeatist?? The skills/experience that got you to the nice airline gig will get you to another nice place but you must set out to apply them. Que sera sera will have you bulldozed by the motivated competition.

The industry is in a terrible place. Those who survive this crisis still have to face the forces of a globalised workforce willing to work for vastly less money than Europe/US salaries, and we hold a skillset that is dumbed down by the day.

The writing is on the wall, folks. Act to protect your future prospects.
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Old 5th May 2020, 10:48
  #83 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2010
Location: WAW
Age: 46
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by Flying Clog View Post
I tried that with my 'career advice for pilots' thread a week or so ago. Queue lots of burying heads in sand, anger, and eventually the thread has disappeared off Rumours and News thanks to the moderators.

Good luck to all.
One thing you are lacking and you'll need to pursue career outside aviation is COMMUNICATION SKILLS AND EMPATHY.
Your post was among worst ever here on PPRuNe, sir.
Yes, you were right, but the way you wrote it closed doors for any discussion.

Sholayo is offline  
Old 5th May 2020, 11:04
  #84 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2010
Location: WAW
Age: 46
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by Luke258 View Post
Maybe you got a different idea of med school, but this is to achieve a different degree and follow a different Job. The qualification you get after completing med school/University. That's Kind of the point here, to achieve a qualification in an interesting and Well respected profession. So my question is, if anyone done that before. I don't need a lecture on my Chances without a qualification outside aviation.
I think it's like scenario for 45 yrs old who wanted to become a pilot back then in 2010-2019.
You need a lot of time, money and patience to work long hours on minimum wage before you break even.
While MDs will be in high demand in forseeable future - even if we would beat COVID tomorrow - it takes years to graduate and years to get good position "in the industry".
I personally know couple of people who managed to get paid pilot job after 40, but I never heard of any career changer to medicine.

One thing I would suggest is the same people were getting on how to get 0 to ATPL on a budget. Come to Poland, education is cheap, living costs low (assuming studies outside of Warsaw), streets are safer then in large cities in US or EU (this may change due to unemployment skyrocketing). And the diploma you get is valid in entire EU.

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Old 5th May 2020, 11:33
  #85 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: HK
Posts: 65
Originally Posted by macdo View Post
Good post, you are not alone in your background. I have met a good few along the way that grew up on council estates or had outside toilets as kids. One advantage we have, as I discussed Thomas Cook going down last year with a colleague of a similar background, is that having been poor in the past, the adjustment back to a smaller income is fairly straightforward mentally. Like you, I have a banger on the drive, no mortgage, the kids went to state school (and Russell Group Uni's) and enough modest toys to keep me happy. I wish you all the best for your next job. Best bit of advice for the future, when you have a Captains salary, only have a First Officers outgoings and a years salary in the bank.

'Outside Toilet...'

We used to dream of having an outside toilet as kids..................etc etc etc

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Old 5th May 2020, 12:13
  #86 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: EU
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by CASBO View Post
Why be so incredibly defeatist?? The skills/experience that got you to the nice airline gig will get you to another nice place but you must set out to apply them. Que sera sera will have you bulldozed by the motivated competition.

The industry is in a terrible place. Those who survive this crisis still have to face the forces of a globalised workforce willing to work for vastly less money than Europe/US salaries, and we hold a skillset that is dumbed down by the day.

The writing is on the wall, folks. Act to protect your future prospects.
I think you misunderstood my post. I’m not being defeatist. If I do get make redundant I will try my hardest to get back in the flight deck, just like I did to get in. If it’s not a flight deck job I’ll try my hardest to get the best paid / interesting job I can.

My point is that I feel lucky that my lifestyle won’t have to change much if I end up having to take an “averagely” paid job because it’s what I’m used to. Compared to some people (and it’s not exclusive to pilots) I’m not financed out of my backside with a big mortgage and cars on the never never etc.

p.s the skippers comments about me being the roughest pilot they’ve ever flown with is said as banter. They also admire my achievement.

Last edited by TRENT210; 5th May 2020 at 12:29.
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Old 5th May 2020, 16:24
  #87 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Blighty
Posts: 4,278
It was mentioned further up thread, but I'd encourage people to take a look at working in IT. Even with a recession looming, there are still jobs being advertised

Forget about getting into Google at day 1 (you need to know a lot of computer science / algorithms) but there are plenty of online vendors which will teach you the basics of Java or Python as well as a ton of other things that take your interest - reckon on maybe 3 months practice with fees well under 1,000 pounds... of course you need your own PC, reliable Internet and being willing to put in the time practising as well. From there, your initial gig might pay 30k, but that kind of money is just for a 'foot in the door' job to build credibility... after 12 months of learning more in the evening you then move to a better gig

I looked at the 4 year post grad medicine option many years ago... it only works if you are under 35, can pass the (demanding) science entry exams and have a year or more healthcare experience - either as a volunteer or professional. 4 years gets you to the level of junior doctor - a few more years to qualify as a GP, or even more to be a consultant

Law is another option - but the UK has a surplus of solicitors (lots of work is done by non-lawyers now - just need a lawyer to supervise) and legal aid cuts has trashed the livelihood of many barristers
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Old 5th May 2020, 21:28
  #88 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Age: 32
Posts: 128
]I do IT, pretty much this is what I did but only because I couldn’t afford to progress further from PPL(A) with NR. Unless I was happy to not drive or live with my Mum throughout all my 20s then I knew I had to change course.

It worked, some 8 years later I’m well into a £40k role and can afford my own house, decent car and flying.

Last edited by squidie; 5th May 2020 at 22:04.
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Old 5th May 2020, 22:58
  #89 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Earth
Age: 30
Posts: 217
[QUOTE=TRENT210;10771761]My outlook on this whole situation seems to be a little more Que Sera Sera than most.


I thought I was reading my own autobiography looking over your post. I’m 29 and nice to see somebody who’s had a similar upbringing to myself. I think it’s so important to stay humble, modest and never forget your roots. I never took the job for granted and always appreciated how much of a lucky position I was in. I really hope this furlough period ends and we can get back doing what we love.
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Old 5th May 2020, 23:31
  #90 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Москва/Ташкент
Age: 51
Posts: 836
Graduated in Computer Science from a decent UK Uni, dot com boom, made easily enough for CPL/IR (shoutout to VFC and Harvs!) in Canada and a 737 TR, worked SE Asia for a few years on the classic thanks to a huge break that many pray for (and I got), realised this wasn't for me (and had some other issues), quit in some style (walked out), eventually they gave me a reference (a story by itself) and went back to IT, and within a few years was back on track, still maintain some interest (hence still on the site) but nothing would have enticed me back.

I certainly don't (unlike some) put myself on a pedestal and I've never experienced (like one poster) the awe and "feeling different" from their new work colleagues, most of those colleagues incidentally don't give a damn and (in my case) only one or two showed any interest whatsoever.

Former Captain now a Lawyer, F/O now an owner of a chain of guesthouses, F/O now running a large Moscow club (part of a chain), myself, IT Consultant, all part of the old base.. long gone.

Some seem to harbour the thought that life outside aviation is non-existent, or somehow a step down.

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Old 6th May 2020, 01:49
  #91 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: London
Posts: 8
If you are mortgage free then a career break is always nice otherwise it’s a choice between temporary (few years) vs perm career change, and for each one of those, max cash vs work/life balance.

For Good cash and quick short term training:

- IT as others have said. Vendors like Le wagon can teach you from zero to hero in about 3 months everything you need to design and build an app from scratch to a developer standard - enough for you to go it alone or get a junior developer job. It might spark your interest and decent ‘qualified’ pay. Adds to the cv.

-trading if you’ve got the balls, either personally or in FS. You’ve certainly got the analytics and decision making capabilities. Experience is less an issue if you can demonstrate to employers your logic on a trade based on what you foresee playing out, and show you have skin in the game personally. Some people are naturals and some of the best I know have no financial qualifications but can see implications of world events 4 steps ahead of others.

-teaching - easy to get the qualification technically provided you can deal with the practical skills. Decent pay and in demand, lots of life experiences to share.

If it was me, I’d take a break, study python and apps development online at home on a zero to hero type course. Good for the brain, the cv and you have multiple ways in 3, 6 or 12 months to exit or take further depending on what aviation is doing. It’s practically what every Finance professional does when they have been made redundant over the past year. It’s an area that people have not yet embraced and so you are still competitive.

I personally think demand will be needed 1-2 years down the line, definitely when a vaccine is touted, and so wouldn’t overcook this.
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Old 6th May 2020, 08:45
  #92 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 0
I think I’ll try and find something a bit more exciting than App development .

The reason a lot of pilots got into aviation was because they actually like it and had an interest in it.

I’d rather a humble paying job that doesn’t make me die of boredom
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:57
  #93 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 946
So no one's thinking of becoming a flying instructor on £10K-£15k year.
That's if there will be any flying clubs left after all this.

Still might be a lot of ex airline pilots wanting to be checked out and rent aircraft...just to keep their hand in.
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Old 6th May 2020, 10:50
  #94 (permalink)  
Educated Hillbilly
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: From the Hills
Posts: 858
Shame really, instructing just before the covid outbreak was finally starting to pay some decent/survivable salaries at certain establishments.
While ME/IR instructors have always received reasonable to good money, several of the large schools has started offering SEP IRI salaries in the region of 35 to 40K a year plus benefits on top, the overall packages with the joining bonus were over >40k a year.
Still below the Jet FO salaries but better than most turboprop FO gigs (Blue Island only pay the ATR Captains about 40k) a year. .

However I suspect a sudden influx of FIs (from fresh qualifiers) and those from the Airlines coming back to revalidate will soon see these terms eroded back to the flight pay only deals of before.
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Old 6th May 2020, 10:51
  #95 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Away from it all
Posts: 64
Flying in a manual skill that requires mental agility
Thus pilots are good with their hands and brains
I have found great satisfaction and rewards in doing up property for resale - but be careful in the properties you select!
You will be amazed at how much you can do yourself with research and a logical approach.
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Old 6th May 2020, 13:00
  #96 (permalink)  
Educated Hillbilly
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: From the Hills
Posts: 858
"Flying is a manual skill" Not sure that statement hold for those that went 200 hours straight to an Airbus.

I think in the current climate property development isn't going to be that viable noting that house prices are predicted to fall. That said there may be a lot of repossessed houses in the next 12 months going cheap, but unless you have the cash to buy and can wait for the market to recover before selling I can't see it is something that will yield an immediate income.
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Old 6th May 2020, 23:00
  #97 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 0
I’m thinking maybe five years there may be a few jobs suitable. Until then it’d better be somewhere else , doing something in the ground
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Old 7th May 2020, 17:43
  #98 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Earthshire
Posts: 1
Doctor here. Reading these posts I felt that I had to comment.

Firstly I would like to thank all of you that are part of project wingman. I work on a COVID-19 ward and it is extremely heartening to have a cup of coffee and de-stress. Quite a number of my colleagues have been off sick and it plays upon one's mind as to when one will catch it and what affect it will have, so a cup of tea and a welcome smile is most appreciated. I feel great empathy for all of you at an uncertain time.

For me it was a decision between Medical School and Flying in 2012. For a variety of reasons I chose medicine.

Reading these posts, I thought it a good idea to share some of my experiences.

Between applying to medical school and starting the course takes a year if you are successful at first application.
Medical school is competitive, but as mature students and professionals you will be looked on favourably.
In the interim you could do a Masters degree, volunteering or similar.

It is a minimum of 4 years of medical school. You can only apply for 4 medical schools per year. The five year courses are less competitive than the 4 years courses.
If you are sufficiency well heeled there is a private medical school based in the UK which will allow you to short-circuit the admissions cycle. Be warned it expensive. You could consider an Eastern European course but there are questions around medical degree reciprocity after Brexit - so be warned that if you study there your degree MAY not be recognised by the GMC after we leave Europe.

Medical school is hard but enjoyable. On completing your medical studies you then apply for your 'foundation training' which is a 2 year course. You gain your licence to practice after the first year.

Your pay is as follows:
England - starting £28k
Scotland - £24k plus an intensity supplement (banding), of between 0 - 100%.

BMA has the pay scales - I can't post links.

This is for 48 hours on average per week, averaged out over 6 months.

FY1 and 2 are the hardest. In FY1 regularly pulled 100 hour weeks because the ward was understaffed and I felt that I had to stay. In retrospect I was perhaps slow and inefficient. In my first 4 month rotation of FY1 I drank a bottle of wine a night to cope with the stress. Often during the day I went without breaks.
There are lots of night shifts (12 hours typically 20.00 - 08.00). You do not sleep during your shift.

You can be based at any hospital for your FY1+2 and you are often moved between them, without much control. It is not unusual to have a 1 hour commute each way plus a 12 hour night shift. I have been woken up by the rumble strips driving home on more than one occasion. Now we are limited to 4 night shifts which is more reasonable.

Mid-way thought FY2 you apply to your speciality, ranking training programmes across the county. If you are lucky and do well at selection you will have a programme close to you but again you will be required to commute to different hospitals for training.

During your speciality training your salary increases to £33k in Scotland, £38k in England. There are uplifts for nights etc, depending on which country you work in.

The minimum time for speciality training is 3 years for GP. For any other specialty it is between 5-8+ years plus sub-specialty training.

GPs are independent contractors and can expect to earn £450-550 per day locum (zero hours) rates, or £80k+ as a salaried GP. Partners own their own practices and earn about £100k - you can increase this, sometime significantly, if you are prepared to travel and undertake night or out of hours extra work.

Consultants start on £80k and through a system of incremental annual rises progress to about £120k over the course of their careers. There is limited scope for private work outside of london and procedural specialties such as orthopaedic surgery for example. Consultants can locum over and above their annual contract.

On balance, it will take you a minimum of 11 years from today to become a GP, and a minimum of 13 years to be a consultant.

Being a doctor is a unique privilege, however from a purely financial perspective I cannot say that it is a good move and indeed I regretted my choice on a number of occasions. Mainly after a string of night shifts or on occasions where I have had to miss family events due to poor rota management.

Hope this is informative.
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Old 8th May 2020, 01:49
  #99 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: EU
Posts: 34
Thanks for the in-depth post.

The one thing I would be asking my fellow pilots... should pilots really thinking about going down the medicine route unless they have a passion for it?

Would it be wrong to go down that route purely for financial reasons and not because you have a passion or interest in medicine?
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Old 8th May 2020, 08:20
  #100 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: hang on let me check
Posts: 617
Disregarding the fact that I personally know cases of doctors who are professional pilots or the other way around, I wonder how we ended up talking about such a drastic career change when we are supposed to be flying out of passion?

Last edited by bringbackthe80s; 9th May 2020 at 03:37.
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