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Working Life After Flying

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Working Life After Flying

Old 1st May 2020, 10:01
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Eurozone
Posts: 154
Uplinker, check your pm.

Z
zeddb is offline  
Old 1st May 2020, 10:08
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: On the road
Posts: 163
Ignore the detractors. Itís emotional times. Given the question of the thread I think all of us in the industry welcome any chat and thoughts. Train drivers, woodworkers, what ever - itís all welcome chat as far as Iím concerned. Try not to get sensitive and tell these folk to buzz off.

Equally those trying to police others by telling them itís too early - what you asking for - have some emotional empathy. Some cope by facing one step at a time. Other people cope by trying to imagine a future away. Doesnít mean theyíre gonna all immediately shred their licences and apply to be railway signallers

Also, donít see no need for mods to bin this thread off. Thereís hardly much of an industry left at the min so if this isnít a relevant topic for ďtermsĒ donít know what is

Last edited by Cliff Secord; 1st May 2020 at 14:36.
Cliff Secord is offline  
Old 1st May 2020, 10:10
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 54
Strong unions such as ASLEF and RMT have an awful lot to do with it. Also how many train drivers do the job for nothing just to gain experience plus the dreadful Pay 2 Fly schemes that were/are in operation in the aviation world. Train drivers don't trample over each other to get onto the "flight deck" either.
Totally agree. We as a group do not do ourselves any favours, particularly here in the UK.
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Old 1st May 2020, 10:39
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 236
Originally Posted by 5000psi View Post
Its amazing 2 transport related industries, both post privatisation, both limited operators. Both obviously desirable careers judging by the numbers that apply for the railways.

One funds all of the new enterent training, 4 day weeks and everyone happy.

The other, £100k plus to train, self funded, work max hours, treated like ..., etc etc.

How did we end up here? Genuinely interested. Some will say the unions, but that cant be it.
One of the most important aspects of this is the fact that would be drivers cannot pay for their own training. This means that there is never a surplus of newly qualified people desperate for their first job. Occasionally there are redundancies, recently these have been in the freight sector due to the closure of coal-fired power stations. ASLEF worked with various TOCs I believe to make sure that the drivers who wanted to stay in the industry had opportunities available. With regard to T&Cs, the union acts as a backstop to prevent TOCs from imposing things we don't want in our contracts.

The absence of large driver surpluses mean that companies have to compete for drivers, it's cheaper to take someone who's qualified elsewhere than someone who needs a full training course. If one company has a large retirement bulge coming up, the company next door might make their pay deal a bit better to avoid having their drivers poached. The appearance of Crossrail and the massive expansion of London Overground and Thameslink has done quite a lot for driver salaries at most of the London commuter TOCs because many were at risk of losing drivers. Ultimately, it comes down to supply and demand, if pilots want to restore terms and conditions, the unions have to put an end to the oversupply of 200-hour airline ready people. As I've said before, look at what the 1500 hour rule did for conditions in the US.

Another important thing is the paradigm, airlines are used to being able to get their way with pilots since the degradation of T&Cs has been going on for so long, so they demand a lot more than they otherwise would. On the railway, it's the opposite way round, there have even been a couple of occasions recently where unions have totally brass-necked it and the company has just said "yes" to the union's amazement. That said, union strength varies from company to company.

As for train drivers on a pilot forums, I have seen pilot threads on a railway forum, in fact one was created by the moderators on a rail forum to enable the railway crowd to discuss their various flying ambitions. I do know of at least one newly qualified pilot who came to the railway, he was on a zero-hours contract at a low-cost airline and it didn't pay the training loan.

When it comes to the railway, if a pilot could present a convincing case that the airline industry was not going to recover to it's pre-virus peak then that would no doubt help with recruitment. Also, since age is no-barrier to train driver training, someone who's taken an early retirement in aviation could enjoy a 10 year career on the railway. Trainees in their mid-fifties are a common sight.
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Old 1st May 2020, 10:44
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Surrey
Posts: 5
Completely understand that these are emotional times, as mentioned above. I was almost ready to apply and put myself through training and I certainly feel I've gotten a lot from reading these forums over the years so if there's anything I can do to give a little back to those who are interested then I'd be all too happy to help.

I'll go as far as to say if anyone is travelling into/out of Kings Cross on the East Coast line, whether for leisure or commuting, feel free to let me know and if I'm available then I don't mind having a socially distanced chat about anything you wish to know.
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Old 1st May 2020, 11:22
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: A Gaelic Country
Posts: 0
There was a scheme about 5 years ago whereby graduates with Science based degrees could apply to become "Doctor Assistant" or "Assistant Doctor" - like a PA (Pilot's Assistant) once was.

I guess Google could help - or writing to a local NHS Authority? I don't have the links but I do know about it as I mentioned to my Uni daughter.

Dare I suggest Politics? Run for MP? Or Local Council?

It may be possible to switch to Merchant Navy Deck or ETO Officer BUT normally it is a 3 year Cadetship with age limits (I was one). Times have changed and rules changed so it may be possible to study for the writtens and Orals but then you need seatime. If any of you are Yacht Masters or Day Skippers then that may be more viable - one of my Army students is doing that very thing now due to the flying issues - but he has experience on yachts.
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Old 1st May 2020, 11:47
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: EU
Posts: 2
ĎCovcí

You touched on something I was looking to offer forward.. Just a suggestion regarding yachts.

Wonderful ex colleague struck down with cancer that took away any imagination of regaining a UK or other class one med.

He took his skills to the local sailing school and after now some time at school and training is delivering for a good income .. Sailing boats all over the world.. Navigation, charted, timetables and people skills .. Might be a little lonely at times but for a couple that wish to travel, itís really small investment to gain a certificate to sail with others at first and gain miles, experience etc..

Just a thought, especially for those younger passionate types. Can always come back to flying

Ad...
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Old 1st May 2020, 12:47
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: where I lay my hat
Posts: 97
Nice idea. It would need the offshore or ocean yachtmaster qualification as a minimum though, and that's not quick to get, and requires 3000 sea miles before you can even start. Nonetheless, it's got me thinking...
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Old 1st May 2020, 12:55
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Surrey
Posts: 402
I know this is not the usual direction, (indeed, its almost always the opposite) but what do people think about applying to the RAF / RN / Army Air Corps? (or equivalent groups in your country - i'm UK based.) Obviously the salary is nowhere near what you earn at the airlines, but for someone who's young enough to be able to join (26 is the max. age I believe), who likely doesn't yet have too many other commitments other than the training loan , they could therefore cut their cloth to meet their new needs.

Anyone here with any experience of making that move, or is in at the moment and has any insight into how viable that is?
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Old 1st May 2020, 13:10
  #50 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
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Originally Posted by Train2Plane View Post
Train Driver here. Circa 61k for our company when qualified, 14-18 months of training. I know drivers who have grossed 6 figures with overtime etc. Was doing my commercial ratings for flying and grateful to have a career on the railway. Donít just do it for the money. All driver training training stopped currently and recruitment for Trainee Drivers frozen. Not a career you can Ďjust walk intoí.
Good luck.
PM if anyone wants more details.

I gave up flying after 22000 hours. I drive trains.. never been happier!!
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Old 1st May 2020, 13:39
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,791
If you're seriously considering jumping from aviation to something else, my advice is don't lock yourselves into any one single career. The day and age of a single line of work/career is over. Use the time wisely right now to learn a trade that can be practiced as a freelancer. Plenty of trades out there, it doesn't have to be something that involves manipulating or moving objects. Do something that can be scaled up and down as necessary or even done alongside a flying job. The flying bug will most likely return one day.
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Old 1st May 2020, 14:38
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: On the road
Posts: 163
Originally Posted by realECMLdriver View Post
Completely understand that these are emotional times, as mentioned above. I was almost ready to apply and put myself through training and I certainly feel I've gotten a lot from reading these forums over the years so if there's anything I can do to give a little back to those who are interested then I'd be all too happy to help.

I'll go as far as to say if anyone is travelling into/out of Kings Cross on the East Coast line, whether for leisure or commuting, feel free to let me know and if I'm available then I don't mind having a socially distanced chat about anything you wish to know.
im sure you know but my post wasnít aimed at you, quite the opposite. I think itís welcome suggestions!
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Old 1st May 2020, 15:25
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Oxford UK
Age: 41
Posts: 117
Well this is the 4th time I've lost my job as a pilot. I handed my notice in in December as was offered an April start at BA thinking this was the most stable job I'd ever have. This was retracted in March after I'd just finished line training my replacement at the old job..

The industry is ridiculous. Yes I've been paid very well, but the time away from home and constant uncertainty is for me now not worth it. So, I've just been offered a job as an Emergency Care Assistant for an ambulance trust. The money is terrible, but there is a clear career path up to through paramedic and beyond on published pay scales. The industry is recession proof and I sleep in my own bed every night. I can move anywhere in the country if I feel like it, and get an NHS pension when I'm done. The best bit for me is the people I see are truly grateful, and surprisingly medicine and aviation have learned a lot from each other.
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Old 1st May 2020, 15:46
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Augusta, Georgia, USA (back from Germany again)
Posts: 155
Silver Lining/Lemonade?

I lost a job in 2002. My undergraduate degree is nuclear physics. I had some experience with "special weapons" in a younger life. I was hired in 1993 to work in a facility that produced the plutonium for those very same devices. I was one of 27,000 people working there, with a focus on processioning the waste remaining from Pu production. I was laid off 9.79 years later (The number is important because for benefits they truncate rather than round. Pension is at 65 unless age 60 with ten or more years.)

There were six rounds of layoffs ahead of me eliminating 10,000 people from the workforce. I was let go in a group of 47. In 2002 people still wrote checks in the grocery store. The cashier would ask for a work telephone number. Thankfully I was an Army Reservist and I used that office phone number. What would have happened if I said, "Sorry, I don't have a job?"

The Army Reserve weekend-per-month income made a huge difference between going broke slowly or quickly.

Within several months I had found a job as a high school science teacher for the school year starting in August. I knew I would be ok, but it was depressing with no money to spare and a lot of time on my hands. Plus two young kids and newly divorced.

Eleven years later I left teaching and became an Army Civil Servant. I just had my sixth anniversary. I like what I do. I purchased my military time in my civilian retirement. I'm going to work one more year, then "retire" at age 61.

Why "retire" with quotes? I am going to start a new career. The local aviation charter company approached me a while back. They have used their flight instructors as SIC in their charter business (Part 135 if you care about FAA vocabulary). These instructors would get 1499 hours with a couple hundred as King Air SIC and go get an entry level airline job. So, the charter company is hiring/training experienced pilots with a tie to the community to be SIC. I just turned 60; I'm not looking for an airline career. I can, however, be SIC for several years, allowing a good return on their training costs. I have the opportunity to be Captain eventually. So, just as "Shelter in place" was ramping up I finished training and passed the checkride for FAA multi-engine commercial pilot. I have about 900 hours with 70 multi-engine. This would be a stepping stone for many, but it's a wonderful continued opportunity for me.

I don't care for the term "new normal" but it does often apply. Most everyone eventually "lands on their feet." Most clouds do "have a silver lining" (hmm), and "when life gives you lemons, you can make lemonade." Trite clichťs don't always help, but most people will work something out. Having been there, I can sympathize with the loss of a professional salary and a decimated pension plan.
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Old 1st May 2020, 17:38
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: CA, US
Posts: 18
There's also another thread on FlyerTalk which might be of interest. Since these forums are predominately aviation professionals, it's another aviation related community to reach out to. Best of luck to you all during these difficult times.

For BA staff (and others) affected by the current pandemic
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Old 1st May 2020, 21:22
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Europe
Posts: 25
3500 hour, FO at a 'flag carrier';
I'm currently working my 3 month notice period, if I'm lucky I'll return in the seat next spring but I'm mentally and financially preparing for a 2-3 year 'break' (I'm also fully aware I might never manipulate the controls of an airliner again).

I have an HGV license I'm renewing for the short term but this fall I'll start training as an electrician. I can't see myself working 9-5 ever again and I've never heard of an unemployed electrician.... Also I see it as a good side-gig with flying if things brighten up.

Best case scenario I'll continue my flying career with a small contractor business on the side, worst case scenario I'll never fly again but be a certified electrician.

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Old 2nd May 2020, 00:15
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: everywhere
Posts: 91
Has anyone here considered trading on the stock exchange?
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Old 2nd May 2020, 05:55
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by A320LGW View Post
Has anyone here considered trading on the stock exchange?

not sure people will want to spill precious savings when they donít know what they are doing
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Old 2nd May 2020, 08:10
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 913
When i was 17 i did the Christmas post for 8 days, would be a winter with a few inches of snow on the ground. But when i finished on the eight day, i was sad to finish. I really enjoyed walking the streets and people starting to recognise me and say hello. People busy going to work, mother taking kids to school. A real community spirit. I always thought if i couldn't get a job i would apply to the post office.
Instead i got a job in my other interest, engineering draughtsman. Which then paid for my aviation career.

I've also always had the attitude if not happy in a job, walk out. Something always turns up.
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Old 2nd May 2020, 09:46
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ashford, Kent
Age: 29
Posts: 208
Originally Posted by BigEndBob View Post
When i was 17 i did the Christmas post for 8 days, would be a winter with a few inches of snow on the ground. But when i finished on the eight day, i was sad to finish. I really enjoyed walking the streets and people starting to recognise me and say hello. People busy going to work, mother taking kids to school. A real community spirit. I always thought if i couldn't get a job i would apply to the post office.
Instead i got a job in my other interest, engineering draughtsman. Which then paid for my aviation career.

I've also always had the attitude if not happy in a job, walk out. Something always turns up.
BigEndBob, try doing the post for 8 years, not 8 days like I did! Royal Mail was a decent enough job. It provided a means to an end and allowed me to self fund all my CPL/IR. I didnít detest it, but the Ďgood old daysí are long gone there too. No more offers of full time employment. Only part time contracts which most usually make up by doing overtime. Appalling management though and not a very well run firm.

I miss the colleagues, the banter and of course my old customers I used to deliver to. I donít miss working outside in the wind and rain though
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