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Working Life After Flying

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Working Life After Flying

Old 25th Jun 2020, 07:03
  #201 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Planet no. 3
Posts: 101
I'm reaching similar conclusions. Doing this fulltime in a low cost company now at reduced salary, what's the point? I'm just hoping they won't be able to max us out for a few years because of this virus.
It's an utter absurdity how on the one hand you'll have thousands of unemployed pilots doing nothing and on the other hand a layer of us "lucky ones" who can be exploited even more, on random rosters doing close to 900 hours a year.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 07:28
  #202 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 65

Most airlines would obviously rather not hire two people on part time due to training overheads but those of us who genuinely benefit from such arrangements, and I know this will be controversial, would gladly cover those costs. I know many will wheep at hearing this and it is a slippery road (possibly, unless enshrined in union agreement) but for me at least, it's more important I'm regularly practicing my other trade than it is to lose a couple of grand on training expenses.

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Old 25th Jun 2020, 07:48
  #203 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 102
the chances of doing this again , full time, part time or at all are fairly slim.

The competition for any posts worldwide will be enormous , and not only that, so will competition for jobs across all other sectors including McJobs.

I awake everyday to a desolate wasteland !
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 08:49
  #204 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Planet no. 3
Posts: 101
The race to the bottom is reaching a point where safety will become compromised. Aviation remains very safe statistically but the bean counters are playing with fire and morale is at rock-bottom.

The technology and infrastructure are simply not there to easily replace us. So you may end up with a situation in the next few decades where aviation becomes less safe, with button pushers on low wages with no actual airmanship or exposure to "real flying", and you can only rely on technology for so much.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 09:02
  #205 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Europe
Posts: 427
That's the thing, there's a day after today and a day after tomorrow. Right now, there's a shortage of ANY good jobs in ANY industry. Even IT guys who were first thought to be recession-proof are being made redundant en masse.

But what do we do when things pick up? Skilled personnel will be needed again. And in large numbers. In the context of aviation, even if we assume that recovery to 2019 levels and further growth will not happen until 2024, there will still be a lot of retirements in that period, hence a need for someone to replace those people. Not to mention that some pilots who are still far from retirement age are walking away voluntarily - and someone will have to replace them as well. There might be loads of wannabes out there, but you can't run an airline on 200-hour cadets only.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 20:00
  #206 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: A
Posts: 37
I do know some pilots who have decided to leave the industry now... early retirement and hopefully some other part time work... they have simply had enough and would like to return to a more normal life with their friends and families. For those of us who do stick around, I suspect that the job market will start to pick up again next year. One interesting point to consider is the long term impact of less people starting their training in 2020 and possibly even in 2021. The state of the industry will put many off from starting their training and others may be forced to delay for financial reasons.
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Old 27th Jun 2020, 10:02
  #207 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Dubai, once... now London
Age: 46
Posts: 41
Do we have a rough estimate to date of the number of pilots looking for work divided by fleet ?
Just to have an idea on how complex it will be to land a job somewhere in the next couple of years and if it's worth looking for other kind of businesses.
nickler is offline  
Old 27th Jun 2020, 11:44
  #208 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Europe
Posts: 427
I don't think that there's such a list. And the situation certainly varies by region, aircraft type and, last but not least, by whether the individual is keen to go for a job just about anywhere in the world instead of waiting for a local opportunity. Some places will pick up quicker than others. Some type ratings will be in greater demand than others. Some people will be willing to relocate pretty much anywhere in the world - unlike others. And then, there's the big unknown of how the situation with the virus will evolve both regionally and globally.
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 20:38
  #209 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Denmark
Age: 40
Posts: 27
Honestly, this industry won't be viable or any fun for far the majority - my guess is 5+ years from now. At least. T&C's will hit rock bottom along with employment, and it takes time to improve those to a decent level - many companies won't improve.

Back in 2014 i took the decision to leave and study, as opposed to doing a TR in hope of a full-time job. Best decision ever. Today I work in a really exciting job - and fly as an instructor - for fun. Best part is, I'm actually having fun while I fly now. I didn't back then.

Don't hold back if you have the slightest chance for and desire to try another career. I was 34 when I did. Never too late and all that.
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 23:15
  #210 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Earth
Age: 30
Posts: 214
Madder what career did you venture into if you don’t mind me asking?
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Old 13th Jul 2020, 13:41
  #211 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Denmark
Age: 40
Posts: 27
Law practice. Contruction law to be more precise.
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Old 1st Aug 2020, 13:39
  #212 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Delta of Venus
Posts: 447
The traditional advice was always to "Get a trade".
I know a chap that left school with about 1.5 GCSE's. He had no idea what he wanted to do with his life, (tbh I was a bit like that 33 years ago, and in some ways I still am...) but in order to "do something" he went to the local college to study plumbing and central heating, which is a market that will never dry up. He got the qualifications and safety certifications (he reckoned it was "difficult" but compared to an ATPL maybe not so much) , His Mum and Dad set him up with tools and a van (much cheaper than an ATPL) and he's never looked back. Now, 15 years later he has a thriving small business, revenue for his work I'd reckon 1600 a week on average with 85% of that profit. He chooses the hours that he works, and is motivated by the fact that the more he works the more money he makes (unlike a salary where people are squeezed for every drop of juice with nothing extra in return). His phone is always ringing with fresh work, to the point where his poor old Mum is now his "booking agent"! Roofers do even better apparently and can pretty much pick their jobs and name their price because so few want to do it. The traditional benefits of being an employee, i.e a known regular income, has evaporated in recent years, even before COVID, due to zero hours contracts and the end of occupational pensions.
Of course a lot of people won't want to do this kind of thing because it involves physical graft, and it's not sitting on their backside in a flightdeck looking at the clouds below (I wouldn't want to do it either, I eschew all physical exercise beyond walking, swimming and sex!) it's certainly as far from glamourous as can be and the upper middle class customers often treat you like sh!t apparently. But society will always NEED tradespeople, society doesn't "need" air travel, especially with the easy free global communications we have now. It is and in many ways always has been a discretionary purchase.
My advise these days is to provide a product or a service that people will always need and want, whatever the signs of the times, and do it for yourself, not for the enrichment of your employer. At least have it as a fallback even if you do something else too.

Last edited by Private jet; 1st Aug 2020 at 13:53.
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Old 2nd Aug 2020, 12:40
  #213 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: England
Posts: 88
I always enjoy reading posts like his. I was that guy who got a trade and then went into flying later and it does make me chuckle reading just how easy I had it before. To correct a few points and add some more perspective.

-Expect a minimum of 3 years study, during which you will need to find someone to take you on for 4 days a week (1 day at college) , expect 50 a day. Don’t bother with these fast track 12 week courses for 10,000 unless you are some serious gambler or have an immediate job offer or company willing to nurse you through your first few years.
-After your minimum 3 years, expect to shell out several thousand pounds on tools, van, insurance and maintenance of your qualifications, per year, every year.
-1600 a week self employed? Certainly achieveable, more during good times. Remember though holiday pay is 0, sick pay is 0, pension is 0
-85% profit, well even the most lenient taxation system might frown upon that.
-Do not underestimate the physical strain you will be putting your body under fixing sinks, plumbing in toilets, shower basins, squeezing into peoples lofts and under their floors. I can’t name a tradesperson I know of over 50 without some work related back/knee/shoulder serious long term impairment.

My advice is this. If you are serious about a career change getting a trade it can be a good trade off between quality of life/money/independence. If you are able to absorb a minimum of 2-3yrs with very little income with a view to the longer term then go ahead. Don’t expect the lifestyle or money that MAY come with a flying job. But do expect more time at home with the family and the occasional golf day. Don’t expect people to pay on time, or sometimes even at all. Do expect tools to be stolen, regular awkward customers, play of dirt and a dusting of asbestos.

I could go on but you get the idea. I may have to dust off the spanners if I get let go next week so best wishes to all.
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Old 2nd Aug 2020, 12:57
  #214 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 866
He's quite right. There's a reason why the smart tradesmen are contractors by the time they are 45!
Shortage of people who can do quality lead work at the moment.
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Old 2nd Aug 2020, 20:43
  #215 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 52
Posts: 36
3 years of training to fix toilets. Sounds too good to be true, where can I sign up please?
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Old 2nd Aug 2020, 22:25
  #216 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Europe
Posts: 427
Depending on the sort of flying you do, trades can also be useful second lines of work. Sure, if you work for a 900-hour-per-year LCC, you will be lucky if you have enough free time to sleep and see your family and friends. Corporate doesn't involve much flying per se, but requires a lot of standby time and availability on a short notice, making side jobs hard to schedule. But, if you work in the leisure and charter sector, for a good half of the year you will be doing hardly any flying. Between November and April, 5 flights in a month is considered an awful lot in many airlines of that kind. And the basic salary without flying is often not too impressive. So, if this is where you are likely to end up, you'd better build some strategy how to spend your winters wisely. Being an on-call home improvement professional can be a good option, especially once you have done it for a while and have a "database" of happy clients who will call you when needed and possibly refer you to their friends. The trouble is, you can't pick up the necessary skills too quickly and you also need experience in order to be trusted with working on people's homes. So, this is ideally worth thinking about BEFORE you start flying.

...and here goes a piece of advice which will never go out of style - get your second qualification before you commit yourself to flying.
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Old 3rd Aug 2020, 08:11
  #217 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Dubai, once... now London
Age: 46
Posts: 41
Can't wait to hear people with something like "hey if You need a good plumber then You should call that guy ; he was the captain of the flight that took us on our last trip to Ibiza on an A320 worth 60 millions euros with 180 pax on board - really cool guy".

I also can't wait to hear "hey if you need that toilet fixed then call my lawyer - very reasonable prices and very smart guy : we won a court case worth 100'000 euros last year. Smart dude."

For some reasons I am under the impression I won't hear that second line. Go figure.
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Old 3rd Aug 2020, 10:15
  #218 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 130
As so often, PilotLZ comes up with very sensible comments and yet again as so often, some tries to 'rubbish' them.

Refusing to consider all possible Alternates is not a good approach in this job.

I have done what many would look down on as a 'menial' job when between job, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I also met several others from quite high up positions, also between jobs and enjoying it.

But it all goes to show that there are those for who the glass is half empty and those for who the glass is half full.

However, please consider your Alternates and do consider additional information from others. If you don't, I would be wary about flying with you...
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Old 3rd Aug 2020, 11:54
  #219 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Dubai, once... now London
Age: 46
Posts: 41
Refusing to understand that being an airline pilot possibly with many years of experience has nothing in common with the path of becoming a tradesman is not a good approach to our declining T&Cs either.

Yes I do look down o a "menial" job because I have spent my life working my @rse off to make it up being a captain examiner in one of the most important airlines in the world and yes I do consider myself at a higher social level.

I do consider my alternates when flying because I am trained to do it and I have been assessed by my employers as being able to do it and also teach it... go figure... so don't bring in these stupid parallelisms between flying and life's plan B, C and so on.

By the way, You don't have to fly with me ; You can go and ask Your plumber or electrician to fly You somewhere. They might work as airline pilots as a part time hobby.
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Old 3rd Aug 2020, 14:11
  #220 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Scotland
Posts: 8
You sound like a self important idiot quite frankly. I'm not sure why you'd consider yourself on a "higher social level", whatever that means, to a tradesman. Serious (i.e. broadsheet) media in the UK considers airline flying to be a trade and not a profession by the way.
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