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International Men's Day

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International Men's Day

Old 20th Nov 2019, 10:44
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International Men's Day

With the trumpets of diversity loudly lauding everything from gender pronouns to gay marriage, what did airlines world wide do to mark International Men's Day?
Were there lapel badges, releases of doves or special celebrations at Waterside, Coward Street or Cathay Pacific City?

Not a rainbow flag to be seen, not a SJW in sight, not a gay airline CEO squeaking a word...
Of course statistically airlines have few men, at least in the high stakes world of social discourse.
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Old 21st Nov 2019, 10:30
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Originally Posted by Rated De View Post
With the trumpets of diversity loudly lauding everything from gender pronouns to gay marriage, what did airlines world wide do to mark International Men's Day?
Were there lapel badges, releases of doves or special celebrations at Waterside, Coward Street or Cathay Pacific City?

Not a rainbow flag to be seen, not a SJW in sight, not a gay airline CEO squeaking a word...
Of course statistically airlines have few men, at least in the high stakes world of social discourse.

It's been called "positive discrimination". The part that angers me most is that most men don't seem to care, and that some are even actively pushing this agenda.
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Old 21st Nov 2019, 10:40
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I still have to understand where this amazing concept of "positive discrimination" is coming from and the beautiful minds behind it.

In Southern Europe it didn't exist, discrimination was just discrimination, and there was no "good" or "bad" discrimination.
Now even here this brilliant concept is gaining support...

Last edited by bulldog89; 21st Nov 2019 at 22:01. Reason: Spelling
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Old 21st Nov 2019, 14:25
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Originally Posted by bulldog89 View Post
I sill have to understand where this amazing concept of "positive discrimination" is coming from
Well easyJet seem to have been at the forefront of it, even running a sponsorship scheme to which men are ineligible.
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Old 23rd Nov 2019, 17:11
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Originally Posted by Joe le Taxi View Post
Well easyJet seem to have been at the forefront of it, even running a sponsorship scheme to which men are ineligible.
You will find this or similar scheme in most bigger companies. Appalling.
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Old 23rd Nov 2019, 18:16
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"Oh poor us, so oppressed, so disadvantaged for centuries, we really need a day of affirmation", want a straight pride too? Of course, let's think of all those years where a man couldn't apply for pilot jobs, it was only for women, gay, and blacks... terrible...
Cry me a river...how pathetic this is...
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Old 23rd Nov 2019, 18:37
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Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
"Oh poor us, so oppressed, so disadvantaged for centuries, we really need a day of affirmation", want a straight pride too? Of course, let's think of all those years where a man couldn't apply for pilot jobs, it was only for women, gay, and blacks... terrible...
Cry me a river...how pathetic this is...
To be honest, I would tend to agree with your sentiment also. Reminds me of when I would ask my parents why there isn't a 'kids day' if there is mother and fathers day. Only for it to be explained that every day is kids day

People should really grow up a little.
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Old 23rd Nov 2019, 18:48
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Originally Posted by go-around flap 15 View Post
To be honest, I would tend to agree with your sentiment also. Reminds me of when I would ask my parents why there isn't a 'kids day' if there is mother and fathers day. Only for it to be explained that every day is kids day

People should really grow up a little.
Exactly, they should! From the many years of experience, I have in pilot recruitment( before becoming a pilot myself), I have never witnessed men being discriminated against for being men in this industry. On the other hand, I can bore you to death with stories where the airline clients would tell me to bar candidate X for being black, Y for being female, or Z for being gay, muslin, etc...

These guys feel so threatened that the status quo is being challenged, that they have to have a moan about our current push for equality. Aviation has been a white man game for decades, what is so bad about trying to inspire young girls to take a shot at the flight deck, or minorities for that matter? I would love my daughter to be seen as equal.

If you're secure about your abilities, give them a level playfield and let the best of the lot get the best positions, regardless of gender/race/sexuality. That's all the "trumpets of diversity" been shouting about.

Scared, insecure little boys will feel the need to complain about International men's day. It is literally every day as we rule most things!
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Old 23rd Nov 2019, 19:01
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Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
"Oh poor us, so oppressed, so disadvantaged for centuries, we really need a day of affirmation", want a straight pride too? Of course, let's think of all those years where a man couldn't apply for pilot jobs, it was only for women, gay, and blacks... terrible...
Cry me a river...how pathetic this is...
So discriminating men is justified because in the past they had the upper hand?
I'll tell you something: I was born in 1989, I had ZERO advantages on women in my entire life and I really had enough to hear the opposite.

So the question is: are you looking for equality or revenge? Because "positive discrimination" seems just a subtle way to indicate the second option to me.
Maybe you'd like to talk about parental rights, quotas in low-paid high-fatigue jobs, lower selection standards reserved to women in public roles (just think about the Army or the Air Force) or why women can retire years before I'd be able to, even if my life expectancy as a man is lower.
Or someone could kindly explain to me how are we still talking about the "pay gap", another amazing term with absolutely no sense which compares salaries without weighting the average? It doesn't take a genius ti understand why men in aviation earn 50% more than women when 90% of pilots are men and 90% of cabin crews are women...

Another funny thing to talk about is that an HR department is usually 95% women and 5% men, yet listening to social warriors they're hiring more men instead of women? Are women discriminating themselves?

Amazing days to live in, amazing days...
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Old 23rd Nov 2019, 19:07
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Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
I can bore you to death with stories where the airline clients would tell me to bar candidate X for being black, Y for being female, or Z for being gay, muslin, etc...
Have you ever reported such practices? Have you ever refused to follow such rules?

Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
I would love my daughter to be seen as equal.
Your daughter IS equal. The issues start where the selection process is not equal...

Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
If you're secure about your abilities, give them a level playfield and let the best of the lot get the best positions, regardless of gender/race/sexuality. That's all the "trumpets of diversity" been shouting about.
Totally agree, just be sure the playfield is really leveled.

Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
Scared, insecure little boys will feel the need to complain about International men's day. It is literally every day as we rule most things!
I honestly rule NOTHING, don't know about you.
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Old 23rd Nov 2019, 19:13
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Originally Posted by bulldog89 View Post


So discriminating men is justified because in the past they had the upper hand?
I'll tell you something: I was born in 1989, I had ZERO advantages on women in my entire life and I really had enough to hear the opposite.

So the question is: are you looking for equality or revenge? Because "positive discrimination" seems just a subtle way to indicate the second option to me.
Maybe you'd like to talk about parental rights, quotas in low-paid high-fatigue jobs, lower selection standards reserved to women in public roles (just think about the Army or the Air Force) or why women can retire years before I'd be able to, even if my life expectancy as a man is lower.
Or someone could kindly explain to me how are we still talking about the "pay gap", another amazing term with absolutely no sense which compares salaries without weighting the average? It doesn't take a genius ti understand why men in aviation earn 50% more than women when 90% of pilots are men and 90% of cabin crews are women...

Another funny thing to talk about is that an HR department is usually 95% women and 5% men, yet listening to social warriors they're hiring more men instead of women? Are women discriminating themselves?

Amazing days to live in, amazing days...
You had zero advantages on women since you were born, in 1989? Hahahaha okay then.

Men aren’t being discriminated, unless they are black or muslin, can give you names of several airlines who wont hire them. What revenge mate? Watching too many videos of Milo Yanopolous and far away from the realities we face.
We are talking about aviation, but in the grand scheme of things, you cannot deny the historical facts that we did and we still do have the upper hand. At least I’m honest enough to check my privilege rather than whine about gays having a parade and I don't.

Pay gap? You’ve answered your own question and also proved the point that the pilot market is men led, 90%+ men, as you put it, thanks for that. Give them the opportunity to compete with us, just make sure you’re good enough to beat them, why so fearful?

HR have more women and are hiring more men? What a ludicrous, moronic statement. There aren’t enough women training, there’s not enough in the talent pool so these women will pick the men by default. Men have the freedom to apply as they please to all jobs, had you have any recruitment experience you’d know that caucasian men are not discriminated anywhere in the modern world.

I agree, amazing days we live in that we have to explain this to people....thankfully that sort of mentality will retire soon!

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Old 23rd Nov 2019, 19:22
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You can join the other “oppressed” pilots bulldog89, that “men parade” marking International men’s day” will be fabulous. Make it very macho, moustaches nicely groomed, leather vests and jeans, ray-ban aviators, glitter....do some very manly thing to celebrate us, like...chop wood together. Hahaha.
I’m sorry but this is laughable! I see nothing wrong with airlines trying to inspire young ladies to train, if that bothers you then there’s nothing else to discuss as there are fundamental problems with you.

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Old 23rd Nov 2019, 19:25
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Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
You had zero advantages on women since you were born, in 1989? Hahahaha okay then.


Please, list me just one, only one thing a woman born in 1989 wasn't able to do due to her gender.

Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
Men aren’t being discriminated, unless they are black or muslin, can give you names of several airlines who wont hire them. What revenge mate? Watching too many videos of Milo Yanopolous and far away from the realities we face.
We are talking about aviation, but in the grand scheme of things, you cannot deny the historical facts that we did and we still do have the upper hand. At least I’m honest enough to check my privilege rather than whine about gays having a parade and I don't.
I don't even know who this Milo is. The "historical" fact is history, past, not actual. Nobody with a functioning brain would ever deny that.
What I'm saying is that now things are being (or are already) reversed, and that's not equality, it's just another discrimination.

Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
Pay gap? You’ve answered your own question and also proved the point that the pilot market is men led, 90%+ men, as you put it, thanks for that. Give them the opportunity to compete with us, just make sure you’re good enough to beat them, why so fearful?
How can I compete in a competition open only to women? I'm not fearful, I'm pissed off from this!

Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
HR have more women and are hiring more men? What a ludicrous, moronic statement. There aren’t enough women training, there’s not enough in the talent pool so these women will pick the men by default. Men have the freedom to apply as they please to all jobs, had you have any recruitment experience you’d know that caucasian men are not discriminated anywhere in the modern world.
My statement was not limited to the aviation world. Anyway, talking about white caucasian men being discriminated easyJet really comes to my mind, just to name one.
How can you increase your percentage of women pilots from 5 to 20% in two years when the 95% of applicants are men, guaranteeing the same selection standards? Are all women pilots geniuses?

If gender does not count, why is literally still in the first page of every online application of ANY airline?



Last edited by bulldog89; 23rd Nov 2019 at 19:37.
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Old 23rd Nov 2019, 19:27
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Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
You can join the other “oppressed” pilots bulldog89, that “men parade” marking International men’s day” will be fabulous. Make it very macho, moustaches nicely groomed, leather vests and jeans, ray-ban aviators, glitter....do some very manly thing to celebrate us, like...chop wood together. Hahaha.
I’m sorry but this is laughable! I see nothing wrong with airlines trying to inspire young ladies to train, if that bothers you then there’s nothing else to discuss as there are fundamental problems with you.



Just another populist post with no specific response to specific answers. Well done.
Now re-read our posts and tell me who's discriminating and insulting the other.

I'll just provide another specific example, maybe you'll be able to give me an answer this time: my FTO rounded up all the female students, set up a "contest" and handed out 10k€ to the "winner" (incidentally the most attractive one and the one with more instagram followers) and a 2k€ "consolation price" to the others.
No contest was offered to men, but they used our money, without our consent, to pay the above prizes. Funny, isn't it?
Especially when you realize that they could have used that sum to buy another aircraft, which we desperately needed, improving the training experience for everyone.
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Old 23rd Nov 2019, 19:59
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Originally Posted by bulldog89 View Post


Please, list me just one, only one thing a woman born in 1989 wasn't able to do due to her gender.



I don't even know who this Milo is. The "historical" fact is history, past, not actual. Nobody with a functioning brain would ever deny that.
What I'm saying is that now things are being (or are already) reversed, and that's not equality, it's just another discrimination.



How can I compete in a competition open only to women? I'm not fearful, I'm pissed off from this!



My statement was not limited to the aviation world. Anyway, talking about white caucasian men being discriminated easyJet really comes to my mind, just to name one.
How can you increase your percentage of women pilots from 5 to 20% in two years when the 95% of applicants are men, guaranteeing the same selection standards? Are all women pilots geniuses?

If gender does not count, why is literally still in the first page of every online application of ANY airline?


1. Sure, I will go further and give you a whole study, from the united nations, showing that you were better off and given more opportunities than most women, being born in 1989. Rest my case here... (https://www.undp.org/content/dam/und...ed_Ch5_low.pdf )

2. No, it hasn't been reversed. You are having a "poor me" attitude because you can't get a flying job and other female cadets, seem to be surpassing you, even with the current push, the numbers still nowhere near and there is still not enough interest from their part. What people are trying to do is to motivate and inspire young girls to take careers in STEM. It's about the mentality, you should consider yours too.

3. You admit here that you are pissed off. But many years ago women couldn't even apply, so now we know how they feel like. And in all honesty, the only airline that attempted a female-only program, fell flat(EZY). Easyjet had to change the requirements and I agree with you that it wasn't done properly.
That said, you can go to China and earn a ton of money there, Muslims and black and women cant. You can apply to most opportunities in Asia, Africa and they cant.
Corporate jets? The same. It's widespread and my point is, again, that men have not been discriminated in aviation.

4. No, I don't believe them to be geniuses. Again, the push is to equality of opportunity, not of outcome.

5. When you get to the flight deck you will see certain attitudes by captains of a different generation and you will understand why some women are put off by the profession.

6. Populism? no. Open source, there is a wealth of information online and if you're passionate about the subject, you'll see that this thread is absolute nonsense.

7. In regards to your FTO example, what country was this? and your FTO was cynical in using a serious issue to capitalize on her social media following, and using for a cheap PR opportunity. Is it her fault tho? Would you take it if it was you? food for thought. Also, what makes you think she would perform worse than you in an airline assessment? Who are you to judge her capabilities?

Wasting your time buddy, but good chat.
I have failed pretty girls at interviews for not having the right stuff. But in the UK there is more transparency(nor perfect still).
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Old 24th Nov 2019, 05:52
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Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
1. Sure, I will go further and give you a whole study, from the united nations, showing that you were better off and given more opportunities than most women, being born in 1989. Rest my case here... (https://www.undp.org/content/dam/und...ed_Ch5_low.pdf )
Nope. The study shows data up to 2015 related to education and shows no difference between M and F in Europe. Data of employment is up to 2010, hardly related to someone born in 1989.

Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
]2. No, it hasn't been reversed. You are having a "poor me" attitude because you can't get a flying job and other female cadets, seem to be surpassing you, even with the current push, the numbers still nowhere near and there is still not enough interest from their part. What people are trying to do is to motivate and inspire young girls to take careers in STEM. It's about the mentality, you should consider yours too.
As you wish. I'm more than happily employed at the moment, but this does not mean I shouldn't point out something I feel to be wrong.
One of the best students in my engineering class was a girl, she's one of the smarter, if not the smartest, people I've known so far. I have no problem saying that, and you know why? Because she was subject to the same selection and evaluation process as I was.
The problem with me lies when the playfield is not leveled.

Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
3. You admit here that you are pissed off. But many years ago women couldn't even apply, so now we know how they feel like. And in all honesty, the only airline that attempted a female-only program, fell flat(EZY). Easyjet had to change the requirements and I agree with you that it wasn't done properly.
THIS is the point. I wasn't too young to "benefit" from "male only" selections, yet I'm supposed to stay put when I see "female only" selections because someone older than me had an advantage in the past. Do you think this is fair? Would you do it?
You're just pissing off a generation of males, which will look for a way to create "male only" selections in the future...you can see we're going nowhere with this process...

And no, it wasn't only easyJet:
Female only scholarships under fire
Oxford

Just another example: in my country you can fund a startup and get a really low taxation level for 5 years, but it's available to under 35 applicants only. UNLESS, you're a woman, then there's no age discrimination. Is this an equal opportunity?

Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
That said, you can go to China and earn a ton of money there, Muslims and black and women cant. You can apply to most opportunities in Asia, Africa and they cant.
Corporate jets? The same. It's widespread and my point is, again, that men have not been discriminated in aviation.
Why should I relocate in another continent? I should have equal opportunities in my country, anything else is discrimination.
Again, as I live in Europe I don't think I should "pay" to compensate the advantages men have in China, Muslim countries, etc...if corporate jets are discriminating this should be pointed out and punished accordingly. And again, I shouldn't be "paying" for a discrimination made by someone else which I have totally no power about.

Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
Again, the push is to equality of opportunity, not of outcome.
It should be, but I don't think it is honestly.

Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
5. When you get to the flight deck you will see certain attitudes by captains of a different generation and you will understand why some women are put off by the profession.
Again, someone had their cake and ate it, now I'm supposed to compensate for the advantages THEY had? I'm already paying their pensions, something which I probably won't even get and living the consequences of past mistakes, what else?

Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
6. Populism? no. Open source, there is a wealth of information online and if you're passionate about the subject, you'll see that this thread is absolute nonsense.
I think this thread was just a provocation, but the discussion we're having has a lot of sense...otherwise I won't be losing my time here.

Originally Posted by Raph737 View Post
7. In regards to your FTO example, what country was this? and your FTO was cynical in using a serious issue to capitalize on her social media following, and using for a cheap PR opportunity. Is it her fault tho? Would you take it if it was you? food for thought. Also, what makes you think she would perform worse than you in an airline assessment? Who are you to judge her capabilities?
It was in Italy. Yes she was just being used as a marketing tool to me. No, it wasn't her fault and yes, I would have taken the money too, that's for sure.
BUT
The "competition" was put together by other women in higher positions, they all received at least 2000€ just for being female students, paid with the money I gained working, nothing available for the most "instagrammable" male pilot and the rest of us.
Does this seem fair to you?
And truth to be told, there was another girl studying there while working full time (the "winner" wasn't working at the time), with better ATPL scores and just more knowledgeable...but 10k to the more "instagrammable" with barely passed ATPLs. Is this the equality we're looking for? Are we really looking for equality and merit or is it just marketing?
Are we sure that larger campaigns like the orange one comes from goodwill and not by a marketing strategist?
I have my opinion about it, and I'm sure you already know what my thinking is...

And to be fair I didn't say I was performing or would perform better than "the winner" or anyone else.

Last edited by bulldog89; 24th Nov 2019 at 06:02.
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Old 24th Nov 2019, 08:53
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Raph, I do hope you're no longer involved with recruitment because frankly you look like a corporate liability operating completely outside the law. You also liberally use derogatory language such as referring to fellow professionals as "little boys", and ...
Men aren’t being discriminated, unless they are black or muslin
Not other religions and ethnicities then? And BTW, muslin is a type of cloth. You mean Muslim.

I would recommend you acquaint yourself with articles such as these, and numerous legal precedents ruling against discrimination against men in the work place. Sex discrimination against men: 10 ways employers could fall foul , in particular para 4; "it would be sex discrimination against men for an employer to set quotas to recruit or promote a specific number or proportion of women." I'm afraid easyjet do appear to run a coach and horses through this.

Last edited by Joe le Taxi; 24th Nov 2019 at 09:38.
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Old 24th Nov 2019, 10:27
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A level playing field?

That would indeed be good, but men are being invited to play on a field with potholes and boobytraps without the map of where they are hidden.
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Old 24th Nov 2019, 10:33
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Originally Posted by go-around flap 15 View Post
To be honest, I would tend to agree with your sentiment also. Reminds me of when I would ask my parents why there isn't a 'kids day' if there is mother and fathers day. Only for it to be explained that every day is kids day

People should really grow up a little.
Yeah, grow up and see what this has lead to instead of parroting the PC cr*p.

In my company, men are explicitly excluded from promotions into management, while women are being pushed into these positions regardless of qualifications.

Men are not allowed to form their gender-exclusive interest groups, whereas women are encouraged to do so.

A level playfield, with all and everyone being equal? I don‘t think so.
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