Flybe
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 591
Likes: 36
From: The middle
Eighteen years ago when Jersey European Airways first got their Dash Eight 300s they put Captains into the LHS who had only flown single crew King Air ops and had no major problems.
Any new Captain will do 100 hours on type after line training before being allowed to fly with new F/Os with less than 100 hours on type. That's all it needs. The operation is still basically double EDI or double GLA or EXT GCI JER. It's not flying the Atlantic, and as has been mentioned it's not rocket science either, even if the Q400 is a bit faster than the 300.
Any new Captain will do 100 hours on type after line training before being allowed to fly with new F/Os with less than 100 hours on type. That's all it needs. The operation is still basically double EDI or double GLA or EXT GCI JER. It's not flying the Atlantic, and as has been mentioned it's not rocket science either, even if the Q400 is a bit faster than the 300.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 77
Likes: 5
From: Location: Location
And yet, still no one can answer why there is a cut off at 10 tonnes?!
Some people seem to think that there are no commercially operated aircraft between a King Air and a Dash! There are vast amounts of turbo-props and jets with a MTOW less than 10 tonnes that carry multiple passengers and fly multiple legs legs each day. They also encounter weather, slot delays, PRM's, late schedules and all the other items mentioned above. And yes, why shouldn't a new Captain to an airline expect help from the RHS, that is a given in a two crew environment isn't it? The person in the RHS isn't only going to help a new Captain if he/she has come from an aircraft over 10 tonnes.
Also, people mention the difference in flying a prop that will give you Seneca performance and will try to turn you over in some scenarios. Well, again, why would someone coming from a 20 tonne or more, twin jet airliner have any more skill in dealing with that than, say, a person coming from an 8 tonne twin jet or a Piaggio?
Remember, there is ground school, sim training, line training etc etc.
I know of people that have come from operations flying aircraft of less than 10 tonnes MTOW. None of them has found it difficult or the operation significantly different from previous operations of handling aircraft of less than 10 tonnes MTOW.
In actual fact, they have said it is EASIER to operate for FlyBe than it has been at their previous employment, as airlines are inherently designed to run to schedules and will get priority in many cases by handling agents, airports, flow control, de-icing rigs etc.
It's about time companies like FlyBe and others in this industry that have commented above, with obvious flaws in their knowledge/appreciation of non FlyBe operations actually learn what IS required to make a good Captain in an operation like this and what others learn when operation for other companies, and not just aircraft 10 tonnes or more.
Some people seem to think that there are no commercially operated aircraft between a King Air and a Dash! There are vast amounts of turbo-props and jets with a MTOW less than 10 tonnes that carry multiple passengers and fly multiple legs legs each day. They also encounter weather, slot delays, PRM's, late schedules and all the other items mentioned above. And yes, why shouldn't a new Captain to an airline expect help from the RHS, that is a given in a two crew environment isn't it? The person in the RHS isn't only going to help a new Captain if he/she has come from an aircraft over 10 tonnes.
Also, people mention the difference in flying a prop that will give you Seneca performance and will try to turn you over in some scenarios. Well, again, why would someone coming from a 20 tonne or more, twin jet airliner have any more skill in dealing with that than, say, a person coming from an 8 tonne twin jet or a Piaggio?
Remember, there is ground school, sim training, line training etc etc.
I know of people that have come from operations flying aircraft of less than 10 tonnes MTOW. None of them has found it difficult or the operation significantly different from previous operations of handling aircraft of less than 10 tonnes MTOW.
In actual fact, they have said it is EASIER to operate for FlyBe than it has been at their previous employment, as airlines are inherently designed to run to schedules and will get priority in many cases by handling agents, airports, flow control, de-icing rigs etc.
It's about time companies like FlyBe and others in this industry that have commented above, with obvious flaws in their knowledge/appreciation of non FlyBe operations actually learn what IS required to make a good Captain in an operation like this and what others learn when operation for other companies, and not just aircraft 10 tonnes or more.
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 98
Likes: 5
From: UK
I would imagine Flybe don't really care "what IS required to make a good Captain in an operation like this", but they do have a fair idea of what is required to make a good captain in their own operation.
I understand your point and your frustration, but there has to be a cut off somewhere. I would imagine Flybe have analysed their previous recruitment successes and rejections and set their requirements (for DEC!!) accordingly. No one is suggesting that anyone is a less capable aviator simply because of the weight of their aircraft, but they have decided on a profile they are looking for - and for whatever reason they want experience on an aircraft more than 10 tonnes, to be a DEC.
Moving further along the line you'll find that Jet2 do not deem Dash 8 PIC time as good enough for their DEC recruitment profile. In fact, in the recent past this experience would only get you a 70% FO contract. Is that right? Well, again I wouldn't want to be thrown into the left hand seat of a 737 from a Dash 8 LHS no matter about ground/sim/line training. But maybe that's just me.
I understand your point and your frustration, but there has to be a cut off somewhere. I would imagine Flybe have analysed their previous recruitment successes and rejections and set their requirements (for DEC!!) accordingly. No one is suggesting that anyone is a less capable aviator simply because of the weight of their aircraft, but they have decided on a profile they are looking for - and for whatever reason they want experience on an aircraft more than 10 tonnes, to be a DEC.
Moving further along the line you'll find that Jet2 do not deem Dash 8 PIC time as good enough for their DEC recruitment profile. In fact, in the recent past this experience would only get you a 70% FO contract. Is that right? Well, again I wouldn't want to be thrown into the left hand seat of a 737 from a Dash 8 LHS no matter about ground/sim/line training. But maybe that's just me.
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
From: European Administrative Area (Western District and Islands)
Moving further along the line you'll find that Jet2 do not deem Dash 8 PIC time as good enough for their DEC recruitment profile. In fact, in the recent past this experience would only get you a 70% FO contract. Is that right? Well, again I wouldn't want to be thrown into the left hand seat of a 737 from a Dash 8 LHS no matter about ground/sim/line training. But maybe that's just me.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
From: UK
G-DAVE
Get over yourself, as a current dash captain I've got more hours on the dash than you care to imagine. Let's keep every finger crossed that someone with your attitude isn't thinking of applying, or maybe you can't because you don't meet the minimum requirements. Shame.
Rexbanner, whilst I agree with you, it isn't the space shuttle and I never professed or even alluded to that fact. I'm just saying as a commander if you've never flown the dash it's a difficult plane to nail down if all you've flown is very small turbo props.
DooblerChina I don't think anyone is disputing that you can go from a cessna to the space shuttle as a first officer, I'm assuming your move to the 757 was not as direct entry captain? But to go from a small king air or twin piston to the dash 8 as a captain is a difficult ask, not impossible of course not, but it's a tough aircraft to get to grips with when you'll be in charge of it in the type of operation Flybe operates in, you also do not have the luxury of any experience in the right hand seat to fall back on so the buck will stop with you. We've got ex Hercules captains with us as DEC and a few of them have said they wish they did 6 months in the RHS to get used to the operation, but c'est la vie, what do I care.
Get over yourself, as a current dash captain I've got more hours on the dash than you care to imagine. Let's keep every finger crossed that someone with your attitude isn't thinking of applying, or maybe you can't because you don't meet the minimum requirements. Shame.
Rexbanner, whilst I agree with you, it isn't the space shuttle and I never professed or even alluded to that fact. I'm just saying as a commander if you've never flown the dash it's a difficult plane to nail down if all you've flown is very small turbo props.
DooblerChina I don't think anyone is disputing that you can go from a cessna to the space shuttle as a first officer, I'm assuming your move to the 757 was not as direct entry captain? But to go from a small king air or twin piston to the dash 8 as a captain is a difficult ask, not impossible of course not, but it's a tough aircraft to get to grips with when you'll be in charge of it in the type of operation Flybe operates in, you also do not have the luxury of any experience in the right hand seat to fall back on so the buck will stop with you. We've got ex Hercules captains with us as DEC and a few of them have said they wish they did 6 months in the RHS to get used to the operation, but c'est la vie, what do I care.
Last edited by Reversethrustset; 6th December 2016 at 16:03.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
From: Temple Of Doom
Coming from a corporate aviation background and finding myself not being able to apply for certain airline jobs as the weight of the aircraft I fly is below a certain weight can be frustrating. However, I do feel flybe are quite right putting a min weight in there, as they are not recruiting for Fo, but instead for Captain. I would imagine the job to be quite demanding, flying in busy airspace, in weather and probably with inexperienced co pilots. So with the weight restrictoon they probably feel they can get the level of experience they require. I agree with what V/03 has posted. Most aircraft , we probably could all fly them with practice and just because one person says it hard, doesnt mean to say you will find it hard. But for me I would prefer to be learning/sitting in Rhs. I have just moved from Lhs to Rhs on new larger aircraft then my previous one (zero chance of me getting a direct entry command) , and love learning about new aircraft and not have the pressure that comes with being Captain.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 532
Likes: 2
From: UK
excrab - I just wanna pull you up on your comment above about the DEC we took onto the 200/300 from previous single crew positions. You say there were no major problems but, as a very experienced F/O, I was one of the poor guys that had to fly with these DECs! It took a LOT of time for them to adjust to two crew AND airline ops and CRM was often a complete nightmare, so in my book that was a major problem. They did eventually adjust but I'm with Reversethrustset in that 6 months in the right seat would have been the right way to go in their cases.
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: N/A
Is it not more likely that the 10 tonnes and multi crew requirements allows them to put these new captains on a zero flight time type rating and save themselves the costs of the circuits?
I think the arguments about kingairs/chieftains is all pretty null and void anyway as neither are multi crew aircraft and while any aircraft can in theory be operated multi crew, an atpl skills test has to be taken on an aircraft certified as multi crew. So presumably a lot of the people flying them are doing so whilst holding CPL's and not ATPL's and therefore don't hold an appropriate license to be the captain of a dash!
I think the arguments about kingairs/chieftains is all pretty null and void anyway as neither are multi crew aircraft and while any aircraft can in theory be operated multi crew, an atpl skills test has to be taken on an aircraft certified as multi crew. So presumably a lot of the people flying them are doing so whilst holding CPL's and not ATPL's and therefore don't hold an appropriate license to be the captain of a dash!
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 169
Likes: 3
From: UK
"And Matey, i've heard that rumour also..... but come on.... who's going to swap a TOM FO jet job with all the add ons to fly as a Captain on a Dash for less dosh/ work twice as hard and be treated like 
?"
Not a rumour, but a published notice by TOM asking for expressions of interest.
?"Not a rumour, but a published notice by TOM asking for expressions of interest.
Joined: Nov 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,148
Likes: 742
From: UK
@GingerF1 
@jamestkirk, when the first Q400 - JEDI was delivered, it landed like a dream, but after about 6-12 months, its landings got more agricultural.
I noticed why this was on a walk around one day: the MLG oleo extension was much less than it had been when it was delivered, so on most landings we were now hitting the bumpstops. Other pilots and engineers were not interested in doing anything about this, so I started inventing a crosswind on every landing and landed one maingear just before the other, rather than together. This made things much more comfortable.
@jamestkirk, when the first Q400 - JEDI was delivered, it landed like a dream, but after about 6-12 months, its landings got more agricultural.
I noticed why this was on a walk around one day: the MLG oleo extension was much less than it had been when it was delivered, so on most landings we were now hitting the bumpstops. Other pilots and engineers were not interested in doing anything about this, so I started inventing a crosswind on every landing and landed one maingear just before the other, rather than together. This made things much more comfortable.
Last edited by Uplinker; 7th December 2016 at 10:07. Reason: edited to be clearer.
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
From: Bass rock, east side.
Can a BHX Captain describe a typical 400 roster for this base please? Night stops per block and the general pattern, also with the improved package is it still max FTL expected with lates before days off and earlies on your return?
Thanks
Thanks
Last edited by ALTSEL; 13th December 2016 at 06:49. Reason: Content
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: UK
Good Morning,
I would also be interested to know what life is like for a BHX Q400 DEC.
Any info on the following would be great:
Likelihood of getting a BHX base
Time to upgrade for either a LTC on the Q400 or a move to the Junglejet
Number of night stops
Typical take home pay
Is it a good place to work
Anything else I should know (good and bad!)
Any info on the recruitment process would also be good to know.
Thanks
I would also be interested to know what life is like for a BHX Q400 DEC.
Any info on the following would be great:
Likelihood of getting a BHX base
Time to upgrade for either a LTC on the Q400 or a move to the Junglejet
Number of night stops
Typical take home pay
Is it a good place to work
Anything else I should know (good and bad!)
Any info on the recruitment process would also be good to know.
Thanks
Gender Faculty Specialist
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 2,325
Likes: 432
From: In your head.
- it all depends on supply and demand. Stick your bid in and wait.
- LTC, again supply and demand and IIRC based on seniority, if two exactly similar people apply the senior one will get it. The Embraer - a long time.
- many.
- about the same as a Jet2 SFO.
- yes, you'll have a nice day out.
- you'll work your arse off doing 4-6 sector days 5 or 6 days a week 8 or 900 hours a year with well trained FOs whose command you just delayed. You will always start on an early and finish on a late usually between 2 days off giving you, essentially, one night off a week. The pension is pretty good as is staff travel (when they cba to answer a 'phone or email). They like to open and close bases on a whim (BHX should be ok
).
- LTC, again supply and demand and IIRC based on seniority, if two exactly similar people apply the senior one will get it. The Embraer - a long time.
- many.
- about the same as a Jet2 SFO.
- yes, you'll have a nice day out.
- you'll work your arse off doing 4-6 sector days 5 or 6 days a week 8 or 900 hours a year with well trained FOs whose command you just delayed. You will always start on an early and finish on a late usually between 2 days off giving you, essentially, one night off a week. The pension is pretty good as is staff travel (when they cba to answer a 'phone or email). They like to open and close bases on a whim (BHX should be ok
).
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
From: Bass rock, east side.
Thanks Chesty-not ideal then . So I won't delay anybody's Command, just relish my days when I flew the CRJ at JEA/ BE and keep affectionate memories to my self. A return to BHX seemed a good idea- it is the workload that is really the issue, not the salary and benifits.
Last edited by ALTSEL; 16th December 2016 at 23:44. Reason: Content
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
From: UK
LTC isn't decided on seniority anymore, it is the "best" candidate.
Just to reiterate what CM has already said I'll add my two penneth:
1. Getting a BHX base, a reasonable chance but it depends on what bases are available at the time of your job offer. If you don't get it then it shouldn't take too long but then being rock bottom of the seniority list you'll be behind every other fo waiting their commands at BHX.
2. Ejet command. Forget it, there will be 650 pilots above you, including first officers who are bidding for it, they will get it before you do, I would hazard a guess that it'll be years before you get it. I'm a year 11 dash captain and I'm barely close, however one thing is for certain, if you don't bid for it you won't get it.
3. Depends, expect about 4-6 per month
4. Typically a standard month you should see about £4k net if you're contributing to the pension.
5. Yes it's a good place to work in the fact that the people you work with are great, as cm said you'll have a nice day out. Is the grass greener? Who knows, but generally if you go elsewhere then after a while the $h!t is just a different colour.
6. As cm said, you'll work your butt off.
Good luck
Just to reiterate what CM has already said I'll add my two penneth:
1. Getting a BHX base, a reasonable chance but it depends on what bases are available at the time of your job offer. If you don't get it then it shouldn't take too long but then being rock bottom of the seniority list you'll be behind every other fo waiting their commands at BHX.
2. Ejet command. Forget it, there will be 650 pilots above you, including first officers who are bidding for it, they will get it before you do, I would hazard a guess that it'll be years before you get it. I'm a year 11 dash captain and I'm barely close, however one thing is for certain, if you don't bid for it you won't get it.
3. Depends, expect about 4-6 per month
4. Typically a standard month you should see about £4k net if you're contributing to the pension.
5. Yes it's a good place to work in the fact that the people you work with are great, as cm said you'll have a nice day out. Is the grass greener? Who knows, but generally if you go elsewhere then after a while the $h!t is just a different colour.
6. As cm said, you'll work your butt off.
Good luck
Last edited by Reversethrustset; 17th December 2016 at 08:42.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
From: UK
Just to clarify
Just to clarify Flybe got rid of lates to earlies rostering around a weekend years ago so I have no idea how that's still happening. I worked there for 8 years and was generally happy - especially on the Embraer which was the best job I ever had (and I'm now at a national carrier!)
Great training, great camaraderie and people, OK salary, management same as everywhere else but generally well meaning and approachable. My biggest gripe was the number of days I spent at work on the Dash fleet - only 9 days off a month. If they'd put in say a 5/3 fixed roster pattern for full timers I might have stayed rather than the meagre 5/2 we tended to get.
At the end of the day it's certainly not the worst gig in town and the part time 70% deal of 5 on 5 off is pretty awesome (though sadly I didn't get it).
Great training, great camaraderie and people, OK salary, management same as everywhere else but generally well meaning and approachable. My biggest gripe was the number of days I spent at work on the Dash fleet - only 9 days off a month. If they'd put in say a 5/3 fixed roster pattern for full timers I might have stayed rather than the meagre 5/2 we tended to get.
At the end of the day it's certainly not the worst gig in town and the part time 70% deal of 5 on 5 off is pretty awesome (though sadly I didn't get it).
