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Norwegian B787 - LGW based

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Norwegian B787 - LGW based

Old 28th Jul 2015, 00:41
  #321 (permalink)  
 
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Avenger:

The LGW 787 labor model and Spanish 737 labor model are identical, viz: the exclusive use of agency employed staff to circumvent labor rights and labor principles by the real employer, Norwegian.

It is entirely irrelevant if the vast majority of pilots are content (doubtful). The Kjos labor model does not comply with Article 17 - period. Both the EU and US negotiated and signed the Open-Skies Agreement.

The crux of the problem is that Kjos expects everyone to pander to him. The U.S. is having none of it.

In his June 1, 2015, letter to the DoT, Kjos states:

"It has been and will continue to be our firm policy to offer all pilots and cabin crew employed through agencies the opportunity to transfer their employment to a company in the Norwegian Group at the end of a transitional period"

The Kjos letter, Exhibit 1, can be viewed at the following link: Regulations.gov (ref: DOT-OST-2013-0204-0203, view NAI Motion, pdf attachment)

What plans are in place for the LGW 787 agency pilots and cabin crew to transfer their employment to a company in the Norwegian Group and when?
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 04:08
  #322 (permalink)  
 
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I just wonder how can the Gulf carrier operate to the US as those countries don't even contemplate basic human rights. Not defending NLH just trying to understand how is possible Emirates is not competing unfairly...
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 09:10
  #323 (permalink)  
 
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furbpilot. Same as every u.s. policy. How much oil do you have?
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 17:46
  #324 (permalink)  
 
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Don't know if that is it entirely . . . . Norway has some of that stuff too if I remember.
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 09:10
  #325 (permalink)  
 
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Discussion is somewhat off topic

It seems like some people here like to direct the discussion into other areas than terms and endearment. To me it is a little surprising that they put so much energy into Norwegian under this section of PPRuNe when they clearly are not interested in the job.

Anyways, long haul is recruiting a lot at the moment. A friend of mine passed a couple of weeks ago. They need 100 pilots for next year. Conditions are improving. A new airline (as the long haul part of Norwegian should be considered) doesn't give the best market conditions from day one. But since they started pay has increased for LGW based pilots, and will increase even more after three years of service. Days off will increase from November, and when this new company learn how to optimize the roster it will increase more.

But no, no, no (to some of you out there that will quote this post and attack it), the conditions are not the best. They are perhaps not good in most pilots' mind. But they are improving. In two years a lot has happened, and it will continue. Either you believe it will or you don't.
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 10:22
  #326 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Boeing operator View Post

But no, no, no (to some of you out there that will quote this post and attack it), the conditions are not the best. They are perhaps not good in most pilots' mind. But they are improving. In two years a lot has happened, and it will continue. Either you believe it will or you don't.
The crux of the matter is that by individuals accepting ever lower conditions at outfits such as NLH, *everyone* else eventually gets dragged down to the same unsustainable level. You say your conditions are improving, but as soon as they do some other starstruck wannabe comes along and undercuts you. Suddenly you've become expensive and looking for work.

Those of us who've been doing this a few decades know the price to be paid for long haul. Seeing your children grow up while you're watching reruns at 3am in some hotel half a world away, never being fully awake nor fully asleep. And we've fought a long fight for adequate compensation.

I'm not going to get into the other lcc issues; let the customers decide on those . But when you're threatening every other long haul colleagues income and few precious remaining days at home, it becomes a matter which certainly has its rightful place on these boards.

You're selling yourself way below what you're worth, and undermining everyone else in the process. Your conditions will not improve, everyone else's will deteriorate as you've just lowered the bar.

It's a battle we all should be fighting together as professional pilots. I'm at a loss how I can explain this any better and suspect you're ignoring the real issue.
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 12:55
  #327 (permalink)  
 
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quadspeed, IMHO your post is right on the money & NLH crew are guilty of what I (as an ex FR pilot ) was party to in the short haul world. . . . accepting less than my worth.

I don't have a solution, as sometimes at the time it is the best gig in town (or should I say the least onerous ) & certainly we all have bills to pay, & may not have the luxury of saying "no thanks" & taking our skills elsewhere.

What is indisputable however is that NLH has set the bar lower than ever for long-haul, of that point there can be no dissenting views worth listening to.
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 15:42
  #328 (permalink)  
 
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This thread is turning into a real soap opera... How about people NOT apply if you are not interested in the contract, schedule, etc.? Last time I checked applying to NLH was not compulsory...


There are other operators out there with better contracts - go apply if you meet their minimums and have contacts. Ryanair and Easy are hiring...
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 16:52
  #329 (permalink)  
 
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I think it is fair to say Iver that those being critical of NLH in the main have not applied and are well aware of what else is available. That does not mean their comments are not valid as when one bar gets lowered the tendency is for others to follow.
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 17:16
  #330 (permalink)  
 
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I totally agree with Quadspeed's comments and also feel much the same has already happened in the short haul market of Europe. Captplaystation has referred to the damage that FR and the likes have done as regards pilot's t&cs by pilots underselling themselves.
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 21:36
  #331 (permalink)  
 
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I was on the 787 on Tuesday from LGW to FLL. Lovely guys running the show, steered us round some chop, got us to Florida safely. Happy customer.

Just wanted to put in a positive note. My lad training in Jerez at the moment has his eye on a future with Norwegian too.

Mrs Bwsboy
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Old 3rd Aug 2015, 08:32
  #332 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by quadspeed View Post
The crux of the matter is that by individuals accepting ever lower conditions at outfits such as NLH, *everyone* else eventually gets dragged down to the same unsustainable level. You say your conditions are improving, but as soon as they do some other starstruck wannabe comes along and undercuts you. Suddenly you've become expensive and looking for work.

Those of us who've been doing this a few decades know the price to be paid for long haul. Seeing your children grow up while you're watching reruns at 3am in some hotel half a world away, never being fully awake nor fully asleep. And we've fought a long fight for adequate compensation.

I'm not going to get into the other lcc issues; let the customers decide on those . But when you're threatening every other long haul colleagues income and few precious remaining days at home, it becomes a matter which certainly has its rightful place on these boards.

You're selling yourself way below what you're worth, and undermining everyone else in the process. Your conditions will not improve, everyone else's will deteriorate as you've just lowered the bar.

It's a battle we all should be fighting together as professional pilots. I'm at a loss how I can explain this any better and suspect you're ignoring the real issue.
100.5% right.
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Old 3rd Aug 2015, 11:59
  #333 (permalink)  

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There has always been long haul pilots accepting jobs for less money than "Major Airline" LH pilots, ATA and Evergreen comes to mind among others.
Then again, Major LH pilots has also accepted huge pay cuts to stay employed,
Pan Am and TWA for example.
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Old 3rd Aug 2015, 12:55
  #334 (permalink)  
 
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Its not just about the money. If money were the only issue Norwegian would have received a U.S. Foreign Air Carrier Permit months ago.

Although pilots flying for ATA, Evergreen, Pan Am and TWA all may have accepted lower pay, the fact remains they were directly employed by the respective airline with all associated direct employment labor rights and labor principles with the respective airline. As opposed to Norwegian's pilots, rented from a service provider/agency like cleaning staff, with no direct employment labor rights nor labor principles with Norwegian whatsoever.

To add insult to the injury of being a rented pilot, Kjos has declared in his letter to the DoT below, that his exclusive use of agency pilots is only for a "transitional period", after which pilots are offered to "transfer their employment" to a company in the Norwegian group.

Perhaps a LGW based, Norwegian 787 agency pilot, could provide details of what plans are in place to transfer their agency employment to direct employment with Norwegian ?


____________________________________________________________
In his June 1, 2015, letter to the DoT, Kjos states:

"It has been and will continue to be our firm policy to offer all pilots and cabin crew employed through agencies the opportunity to transfer their employment to a company in the Norwegian Group at the end of a transitional period"

The Kjos letter, Exhibit 1, can be viewed at the following link: Regulations.gov (ref: DOT-OST-2013-0204-0203, view NAI Motion, pdf attachment)
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Old 3rd Aug 2015, 18:10
  #335 (permalink)  

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I find it hard to know whether to trust Kjos or not....

Would any Finnish Norwegian pilots care to comment as they were the litmus test of Kjos claim... Are Finnish Norwegian pilots employed by OSM? Did their contract improve significantly when subsequently employed by Norwegian Finland (if indeed they are employed by a local Norwegian franchise)?
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Old 3rd Aug 2015, 18:43
  #336 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by quadspeed View Post
The crux of the matter is that by individuals accepting ever lower conditions at outfits such as NLH, *everyone* else eventually gets dragged down to the same unsustainable level. You say your conditions are improving, but as soon as they do some other starstruck wannabe comes along and undercuts you. Suddenly you've become expensive and looking for work.

Those of us who've been doing this a few decades know the price to be paid for long haul. Seeing your children grow up while you're watching reruns at 3am in some hotel half a world away, never being fully awake nor fully asleep. And we've fought a long fight for adequate compensation.

I'm not going to get into the other lcc issues; let the customers decide on those . But when you're threatening every other long haul colleagues income and few precious remaining days at home, it becomes a matter which certainly has its rightful place on these boards.

You're selling yourself way below what you're worth, and undermining everyone else in the process. Your conditions will not improve, everyone else's will deteriorate as you've just lowered the bar.

It's a battle we all should be fighting together as professional pilots. I'm at a loss how I can explain this any better and suspect you're ignoring the real issue.
That message needs to be repeated over and over. Nobody is doing themselves or anybody else any justice by accepting work with an outfit such as NLH. Quite rightfully guys outside of NLH need to make this clear.
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Old 3rd Aug 2015, 19:42
  #337 (permalink)  
fade to grey
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Of course !
I should really go on the dole to protect your T&Cs, what was I thinking ?

Maybe I'll even move to Shenzhen ......
 
Old 4th Aug 2015, 11:37
  #338 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
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Rishworth still pushing the NLH jobs. This means that either
1) The current crop of candidates interviewed have fallen short of the mark
2) Those interviewed were so horrified that the T"s n C"s were no better than stipulated on PPRuNe, and ran off back to the desert.
3) They are just fishing.

Perhaps the pool of unemployed wannabes is drying up, and they have to deal with pilots who are able to make a choice. And that choice is ...
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Old 4th Aug 2015, 12:15
  #339 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps the pool of unemployed wannabes is drying up
... and maybe there will be a lower number of available 'starstruck wannabes' in the future - Ts&Cs reducing making a career as a pilot less attractive, widening gap between supply and demand?

If that is the case then Ts&Cs may, in the long-run, improve!?
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Old 4th Aug 2015, 15:28
  #340 (permalink)  
 
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"If that is the case then Ts&Cs may, in the long-run, improve!?"


Yep, and I also believe in the tooth fairy & father Christmas. . . . . Oh well, we can live in hope.


"Hope for the best, prepare for the worst" would be my advice to anyone starting a career in this industry.
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