Norwegian Pilots Not Happy
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
From: UK
I wonder which Norwegian company has contracted the wet leased aircraft? If they have been contracted through NAN and then the Norwegian parent company choose to bankrupt NAN, these charter companies aren't going to get paid a penny.
If I were a director of any of these charter companies brought in to counter the strike I'd be very wary indeed and concerned that I might not see payment. With the moral vacuum that exists within Norwegian management I certainly would not put it past them to try.
If I were a director of any of these charter companies brought in to counter the strike I'd be very wary indeed and concerned that I might not see payment. With the moral vacuum that exists within Norwegian management I certainly would not put it past them to try.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,691
Likes: 24
From: Blighty
The finance director of a charter company in this situation will likely pay close attention to which company / legal entity the contract is with and also which country's laws applied to any contract - this is all fairly standard stuff around contracts in company law.
At the worst case, a charter company can always ask for payment up front or in an escrow account, before any pax are loaded onto a wet lease aircraft.
At the worst case, a charter company can always ask for payment up front or in an escrow account, before any pax are loaded onto a wet lease aircraft.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: Europe
Mutual assistance.
According to the Danish news Jet2.com is flying for Norwegian in Norway:
Norwegian masseaflyser flyafgange (opd.)
Norwegian masseaflyser flyafgange (opd.)
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
From: FL430
Anxiety
Now 100% certain that if my company called for a wetlease to Scandinavia my first call would be to my AME. Would have too much in my head to operate safely. Think this is what most in Europe think. God Speed everyone.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,658
Likes: 0
From: Up north
I'm not a big fan of unions, or locos, but if the collective European pilot group really want to do something about the dwindling T&Cs then follow Dualbleed's example.
If you operate any flight for Norwegian then don't come here complaining about you pay and working conditions.
If you operate any flight for Norwegian then don't come here complaining about you pay and working conditions.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: Scandi
Copied from flyprat.no
Streik i Norwegian (statustråd) - Page 4 - Flyprat
Edited by removing some remarks in norwegian language.
OSL:
DY1800 til Malaga: GJZHA (Jet2)
DY2801 til London: EIFHE (irsk DY, tidl. LN_NOD)
DY932 til København: LNDYR (norsk DY)
DY804 til Stockholm: LNDOO (norsk DY)
DY1790 til Alicante (2 t forsinka): GPOWI (Titan, 320)
DY1872 til Roma (2 t forsinka): CSTRO (White, A320)
DY1740 Barcelona: CSTQU (B738, Corendon Dutch Airlines)
DY3222 København: OYLHD (DAT A320)
DY1502 Praha: YLLCO (Smartlynx 320)
DY1632 Wien: LYVEO (Thomas Cook UK, 320)
DY1976 Beograd (kraftig forsinket): LYVEO (samme som linja over)
DY1348 Manchester: LNNOO (norsk DY)
DY1550 Budapest: LNDYI (norsk DY)
DY2803 London: EIFHG (irsk DY, tidl. LN-NOJ)
DY1642 Salzburg: LNDYR (norsk DY)
DY1060 Tallinn: LNNGN (norsk DY)
DY1072 Riga (kraftig forsinket): CSTRO
DY1052 Gdansk: LNNOF (norsk DY)
DY5415 Madrid: LNNGY (norsk DY)
DY2805 London: EIFHE
DY940 København (forsinket): LNNOF (norsk DY).
Det virker med andre ord som de leier inn:
GJZHA fra Jet2
GPOWI fra Titan
CSTRO fra White
CSTQU fra Corendon Dutch Airlines
OYLHD fra DAT
YLLCO fra Smartlynx
LYVEO fra Thomas Cook UK
Cph
GPOWH fra Titan
OYRUD fra DAT
og Stockholm:
YLLCA fra Smartlynx
YLLCM fra Smartlynx
Edited by removing some remarks in norwegian language.
OSL:
DY1800 til Malaga: GJZHA (Jet2)
DY2801 til London: EIFHE (irsk DY, tidl. LN_NOD)
DY932 til København: LNDYR (norsk DY)
DY804 til Stockholm: LNDOO (norsk DY)
DY1790 til Alicante (2 t forsinka): GPOWI (Titan, 320)
DY1872 til Roma (2 t forsinka): CSTRO (White, A320)
DY1740 Barcelona: CSTQU (B738, Corendon Dutch Airlines)
DY3222 København: OYLHD (DAT A320)
DY1502 Praha: YLLCO (Smartlynx 320)
DY1632 Wien: LYVEO (Thomas Cook UK, 320)
DY1976 Beograd (kraftig forsinket): LYVEO (samme som linja over)
DY1348 Manchester: LNNOO (norsk DY)
DY1550 Budapest: LNDYI (norsk DY)
DY2803 London: EIFHG (irsk DY, tidl. LN-NOJ)
DY1642 Salzburg: LNDYR (norsk DY)
DY1060 Tallinn: LNNGN (norsk DY)
DY1072 Riga (kraftig forsinket): CSTRO
DY1052 Gdansk: LNNOF (norsk DY)
DY5415 Madrid: LNNGY (norsk DY)
DY2805 London: EIFHE
DY940 København (forsinket): LNNOF (norsk DY).
Det virker med andre ord som de leier inn:
GJZHA fra Jet2
GPOWI fra Titan
CSTRO fra White
CSTQU fra Corendon Dutch Airlines
OYLHD fra DAT
YLLCO fra Smartlynx
LYVEO fra Thomas Cook UK
Cph
GPOWH fra Titan
OYRUD fra DAT
og Stockholm:
YLLCA fra Smartlynx
YLLCM fra Smartlynx
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,349
Likes: 1
From: FUBAR
Until you have the backup of a Union telling you that you may not fly, you will be putting your own job on the line if you don't operate.
There is of course nothing to stop the individual calling in "unfit to fly" due to the stresses & distractions caused to you by doing something you fundamentally know is wrong.
I have asked directly to the Union if I may participate, and was told that as a "Contractor" 100% no I may not. This has been in relation to operating a flight that is not K Area /Scandinavian production.
I believe several colleagues have reported "unfit to fly" when rostered out of their EURO bases to fly in Scandinavia. For the moment that is the only option available to them without risking dismissal.
There is of course nothing to stop the individual calling in "unfit to fly" due to the stresses & distractions caused to you by doing something you fundamentally know is wrong.
I have asked directly to the Union if I may participate, and was told that as a "Contractor" 100% no I may not. This has been in relation to operating a flight that is not K Area /Scandinavian production.
I believe several colleagues have reported "unfit to fly" when rostered out of their EURO bases to fly in Scandinavia. For the moment that is the only option available to them without risking dismissal.
Last edited by captplaystation; 4th March 2015 at 13:19.
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 750
Likes: 72
From: Netherlands
The pilots are on strike, so they send the cabin staff home, WITHOUT pay!
I guess they better start striking as well....!
800 Norwegian staff "will be sent home without pay" - Radio Sweden | Sveriges Radio
I guess they better start striking as well....!
800 Norwegian staff "will be sent home without pay" - Radio Sweden | Sveriges Radio
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
From: Sydney
I am truly impressed with the cohesion and resolve of the striking pilots. I support them 100%.
"without risking dismissal" - Norwegian contractors should fully review the content of their respective AGENCY contracts:
Authority
The Crew Member shall be subject to the operational control of the Present Lessee and the Present Lessee shall have the authority to supervise, direct and control the Crew Member in accordance with the Present Lessee's standard procedures and requirements. (or similar).
Termination
A notice of 30-days is required for voluntary termination by both parties. Notice shall be in writing etc etc.
(name of agency) may terminate this Agreement with immediate effect at any time, without notice, if the Crew Member: .....fails or refuses to carry out the specified services under this agreement. (or similar).
Bottom Line:
After Crew Plan calls and you refuse to zip over to Scandinavia and replace a striking colleague - Grounds for immediate termination.
Call in sick after such instructions - May be fired with 30 days notice, no reason required (voluntary termination clause).
Remember what happened at the end of 2012? - all contractors were fired on 30-days notice and required to accept a new contract or hit the road. Which reveals an additional point, your contract is only ever really valid for 30-days.
If any contractor is fired for not wishing to be a strikebreaker, there is absolutely nothing you will be able to do about it because you DO NOT have an employer/employee relationship with Norwegian. Your employer is the respective agency.
I doubt the EU will act to end this abhorrent agency business model. Contractors flying for Norwegian have a golden opportunity to join their Scandinavia colleagues and demand you ALL be included in a collective agreement and that Norwegian is your "employer". At such time you will truly be ONE GROUP OF NORWEGIAN PILOTS.
several colleagues have reported "unfit to fly" when rostered out of their EURO bases to fly in Scandinavia. For the moment that is the only option available to them without risking dismissal.
Authority
The Crew Member shall be subject to the operational control of the Present Lessee and the Present Lessee shall have the authority to supervise, direct and control the Crew Member in accordance with the Present Lessee's standard procedures and requirements. (or similar).
Termination
A notice of 30-days is required for voluntary termination by both parties. Notice shall be in writing etc etc.
(name of agency) may terminate this Agreement with immediate effect at any time, without notice, if the Crew Member: .....fails or refuses to carry out the specified services under this agreement. (or similar).
Bottom Line:
After Crew Plan calls and you refuse to zip over to Scandinavia and replace a striking colleague - Grounds for immediate termination.
Call in sick after such instructions - May be fired with 30 days notice, no reason required (voluntary termination clause).
Remember what happened at the end of 2012? - all contractors were fired on 30-days notice and required to accept a new contract or hit the road. Which reveals an additional point, your contract is only ever really valid for 30-days.
If any contractor is fired for not wishing to be a strikebreaker, there is absolutely nothing you will be able to do about it because you DO NOT have an employer/employee relationship with Norwegian. Your employer is the respective agency.
I doubt the EU will act to end this abhorrent agency business model. Contractors flying for Norwegian have a golden opportunity to join their Scandinavia colleagues and demand you ALL be included in a collective agreement and that Norwegian is your "employer". At such time you will truly be ONE GROUP OF NORWEGIAN PILOTS.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 115
From: UK
Are we to expect the same sort of solidarity that was shown when the Brits almost tripped over themselves to head for Australia in 1989?
I also smile when I hear stories about IFALPA black-balling pilots. I'm afraid that is another load of
as well.
They might be able to influence who gets hired into BA, SAS, Lufthansa etc but that is a pretty pointless exercise since the pilots involved have already been turned down by BA, SAS, Lufthansa etc.
It is always useful to remember that the airline involved will be spending a fortune wet-leasing so that might help get them to the negotiating table.
By the way, I speak from experience. I have a wardrobe full of (failed) airline uniforms and I have been involved in more employment disagreements than a lot of you.
The problem that the core strikers have is in asking the many much less paid pilots in the organisation to support their cause when they are (possibly incorrectly) assumed to have done precisely nothing to have stopped the downward slide in the status of the youngsters joining the company.
When I was in the military it was called " you Jack, I'm all right".
Solidarity? Surprise me please.
I also smile when I hear stories about IFALPA black-balling pilots. I'm afraid that is another load of
as well.They might be able to influence who gets hired into BA, SAS, Lufthansa etc but that is a pretty pointless exercise since the pilots involved have already been turned down by BA, SAS, Lufthansa etc.
It is always useful to remember that the airline involved will be spending a fortune wet-leasing so that might help get them to the negotiating table.
By the way, I speak from experience. I have a wardrobe full of (failed) airline uniforms and I have been involved in more employment disagreements than a lot of you.
The problem that the core strikers have is in asking the many much less paid pilots in the organisation to support their cause when they are (possibly incorrectly) assumed to have done precisely nothing to have stopped the downward slide in the status of the youngsters joining the company.
When I was in the military it was called "
you Jack, I'm all right".Solidarity? Surprise me please.
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 537
Likes: 0
From: The IMF.
JW411
You say "They might be able to influence who gets hired into BA, SAS, Lufthansa etc but that is a pretty pointless exercise since the pilots involved have already been turned down by BA, SAS, Lufthansa etc."
Do you mean that all the pilots in any companies, that may decide to undertake charter work, in order to keep "Norwegian" services operating, have all been turned down by the above airlines? Companies that are in business for the reason of being in business, i.e. a return on capital employed for shareholder return.....
If so, that is an extraordinary statement. And one that is actually very incorrect!!
Do you mean that all the pilots in any companies, that may decide to undertake charter work, in order to keep "Norwegian" services operating, have all been turned down by the above airlines? Companies that are in business for the reason of being in business, i.e. a return on capital employed for shareholder return.....
If so, that is an extraordinary statement. And one that is actually very incorrect!!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,349
Likes: 1
From: FUBAR
Direct Bondi,
you are quoting from a superseded contract. Notice period either way for those who have signed a Contract with OSM /NAR ES /NAR FI is 3 months. Most are now on these "permanent" contracts.
It is your legal obligation to ascertain whether you are fit to fly, and a company attempting to impose disciplinary measures on a crew member who has (in his own judgement ) assessed himself unfit, is in very serious contravention of all National Aviation Authority rules.
What has happened , with the Scandinavian based crews, is that the company has withdrawn the right to "self-certify" for the 1st 3 days of sickness. This could well be extended to the EURO pilots, but, it will (as discussed earlier in the thread) be self defeating.
No Doctor is going to put his name/career on the line by failing to sign off a flight crew member who states that he is unable to perform due to stress, and, as further stated in the previous post, is more than likely to sign the individual off for more than a couple of days, and probably demand a return visit to recertify the individual as fit.
I do however totally agree with your assertion that . . . . . . " Contractors flying for Norwegian have a golden opportunity to join their Scandinavia colleagues and demand you ALL be included in a collective agreement and that Norwegian is your "employer". At such time you will truly be ONE GROUP OF NORWEGIAN PILOTS."
you are quoting from a superseded contract. Notice period either way for those who have signed a Contract with OSM /NAR ES /NAR FI is 3 months. Most are now on these "permanent" contracts.
It is your legal obligation to ascertain whether you are fit to fly, and a company attempting to impose disciplinary measures on a crew member who has (in his own judgement ) assessed himself unfit, is in very serious contravention of all National Aviation Authority rules.
What has happened , with the Scandinavian based crews, is that the company has withdrawn the right to "self-certify" for the 1st 3 days of sickness. This could well be extended to the EURO pilots, but, it will (as discussed earlier in the thread) be self defeating.
No Doctor is going to put his name/career on the line by failing to sign off a flight crew member who states that he is unable to perform due to stress, and, as further stated in the previous post, is more than likely to sign the individual off for more than a couple of days, and probably demand a return visit to recertify the individual as fit.
I do however totally agree with your assertion that . . . . . . " Contractors flying for Norwegian have a golden opportunity to join their Scandinavia colleagues and demand you ALL be included in a collective agreement and that Norwegian is your "employer". At such time you will truly be ONE GROUP OF NORWEGIAN PILOTS."
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
From: spain
jw411, i completely resent pretty much your entire comment, from you, your military experience, and all the airlines that have been in their right mind to leave you with nothing but..... the uniform.
the fact is that the euro based pilots, are mostly based in veeeeery reasonably pricing areas of europe, both tax, housing, food and allowance. those of them that have half a brain, stick by their colleagues, respect what they have build, and stand by them in thick and thin, yeah they cannot support a strike YET.... trust me this fight is far from over.
the fact is that the euro based pilots, are mostly based in veeeeery reasonably pricing areas of europe, both tax, housing, food and allowance. those of them that have half a brain, stick by their
colleagues, respect what they have build, and stand by them in thick and thin, yeah they cannot support a strike YET.... trust me this fight is far from over.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
From: Sydney
As reported in Norway's Dagbladet evening edition, the Spanish pilot union, SEPLA, are considering their intended course of action:
"Today was the message from SEPLA that union lawyers are now considering the matter"
"Javier Martinez de Velasco believes pilots must be a permanent employee of an airline"
"we will have good working conditions and wages and a collective employment contract, says SEPLA president Javier Martinez de Velasco"
*Link:
Norwegian-piloter i Spania «håper og ber» for norske kolleger - nyheter - Dagbladet.no
*use Google Translate
I think you should ALL go for it. Good luck, whatever your 'collective' decision
"Today was the message from SEPLA that union lawyers are now considering the matter"
"Javier Martinez de Velasco believes pilots must be a permanent employee of an airline"
"we will have good working conditions and wages and a collective employment contract, says SEPLA president Javier Martinez de Velasco"
*Link:
Norwegian-piloter i Spania «håper og ber» for norske kolleger - nyheter - Dagbladet.no
*use Google Translate
I think you should ALL go for it. Good luck, whatever your 'collective' decision
Last edited by Direct Bondi; 4th March 2015 at 20:20.