Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

Norwegian Pilots Not Happy

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Norwegian Pilots Not Happy

Old 28th Feb 2015, 13:37
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,349
berserker,

surprised there, normally the Danes are the first ones to down tools & set up picket lines (look at FR's "experience" ) quite untypical.
captplaystation is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2015, 14:18
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Costa del Thames
Posts: 508
Added to say that you've got my full support. Enough is enough!
Brenoch is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2015, 14:57
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: NORWAY
Age: 56
Posts: 29
Full support to the Norwegian pilots ( NAN ) this days!
It's a shame that Danish Air Transport take the opportunity to fly on DY routes now!
Tally-ho1 is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2015, 16:53
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Norway
Posts: 286
Good luck NPU!
Actually the entire pilot community in EU should set the Park Brake to ON!
EASA and the EU politicians need to be told 'nuff's Enough now!!
Just Say No!!
Hotel Charlie is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2015, 19:30
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Moss
Posts: 144
Strikebraking or not?

So Norwegian consist of a mother company with pilots hired in daughter company below. Now one of these daughter companies are on strike. Norwegian is now transfering pilots from one daugther to another. The union is claiming this is strikebraking. Norwegian/ Bjørn Kjos says it's not. What do you think? If it is, why?
empati is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2015, 21:06
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Mostly FL360-380, M0.78
Posts: 247
It is because in doing so you bypass the normal "rules". Effectively you put your employees out of the game when it comes to negotiations.

This will become really really ugly.. Simply put Mr. Bjørn Kjos big dream is to be able to compete or beat the lowest production cost out there, meaning for shorthaul it is not enough to beat Easyjet on costs, no he want to beat Ryanair .. It is like an obsession.. Base meeting, after base meeting, up comes the spreadsheet comparison to other carriers.. and one name comes up.. Ryanair, Ryanair, Ryanair.

In his quest to drive costs downward Norwegian has been reorganised, so the company you purchase your ticket with is a "virtual airline" with owned production companies underneath. The Kjos logic now is that if one "unit" is on strike, he can just ask another unit to fly his aircraft.. For negotiations production units can be put up against each other to drive down T & C's.

In short the non-scandinavian based crew will be used to break down T & C's of the original flight crew that helped build this airline.

The only solution is for all flightcrew to stand united. This is probably also the only chance of a turn-around of the contractor policies introduced the last couple of years.

None of the scandi pilots want Norwegian to become a new Ryanair! I am not sure Kjos is aware how pissed off people are.. He probably will never show up again at base meetings, in Scandinavia ;-)
Jetavia is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2015, 22:22
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: over there
Posts: 68
It's pretty simple really. If the union loses this conflict then it's game over for Scandinavian pilot careers. Go to china, save all the earnings for 5 years and invest in stocks. Go home and do something else while you live off of dividends. Anyone even contemplating starting a flying career in Scandinavia would have to be insane if this dam breaks. You will be hired by the hour by a third party, with zero social benefits, no pension, paying your own expenses, flying a gruelling roster that forces you to forfeit any sort of normal life and relationship. You will in essence live to work. I say you deserve better. We all do.

Scandinavian Airlines are doing much the same and the cabin is on strike as a result. Buy another airline and transfer the employees to it with a brand new shiny set of conditions. If this is legal, then collective agreements are all null and void. Worth less than the stationary holding the ink. Why even pretend in that case?

Collective agreements are becoming a thing of the past. Actual employment is becoming a thing of the past. And in all lines of work too I might add. Companies don't hire anyone anymore, they do it via agencies to minimise their responsibilities. Nobody wants to worry about sick leave, parental leave, pensions, vacation. You know, all the silly things that mean living instead of existing. 20-year olds serving coffee sit in their parents house on stand-by hoping to get called out to work via SMS. If you reply within five minutes you get to go to work for a day, congratulations. Any later and the offer has moved on. Like factory workers in 1812 muzzling up to the gates hoping the foreman will point at them that day.

And time and time again we are beaten over the head with the same mantra. Cost cost cost. We have to have zero cost for everything. Any expense and we will all go bankrupt and then you will have no job at all. So we bow our heads and think well yes alright, 15% pay cut is manageable. Then next year, guess what. CEO got away with it so now he wants 20% cuts. Or ELSE. And at the end of that year there's a BIG old gala where the CEO and his merry robbers give each other trophies, medals, diplomas and a nice fat bonus as "leaders of the year" for being such good little boys, conning the lowly serfs who work for them out of their rightful compensation. See, it pays to be in a perpetual state of "bankruptcy". It pays them, and you get to pay. Nice gig on the right side of the fence.

When did we accept, as a society, to roll back the times to 1800 to be "competitive"? Who stands to benefit from such a development? Does is behove us as a species to drive towards this? Or has a small unit of money and power conned the rest of us into fearful surrender? Happy to receive whatever scraps fall off the table, oh thank you sir, oh bless you mam. We think we are prisoners to this reality when we are in fact the guards. We have the keys to unlock all doors and leave yet we consistently choose the fabrication that says fear is the only option. And we consistently make the sort of self-serving and short-sighted decisions that gives us 1 and costs us 2. Well thank god for that, they told me I stood to lose 3. What a victory...

Politicians unfortunately do not care. Primarily because they have already elevated themselves to the point that they are disconnected from normal life. They were allowed to set their own terms, salary, pensions and they quickly decided that they are special people. Unique in every way and well deserving of all the toys they could spy. "Why don't they eat cake" is pretty much what you can hope for from the well-fed ignoramuses of elected offices. Legislation is the only thing that will correct the current abominable treatment of employees and that means politics.

Ultimately this will break society and destroy all the things that previous generations fought for. We took those things for granted and spent our time staring at footie and naked celebrities instead. And here we are. Nobody will have a job, we will all be fighting amongst ourselves for any scrap of income and the great men and women in head office and parliament will drink to each others health all the while pretending to give a flying
somethingclever is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2015, 22:38
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Over the Rainbow
Posts: 54
Hear hear.

This race to the bottom has been going on for far too long, but I wonder if it will ever stop.

I'm not an expert on the matter, but the problem such as I see it is not the airlines themselves. There will always be one airline that goes further than the other airlines, within the regulations, or in "grey" areas of regulations within Europe. The other airlines that have unionized pilots, collective agreements, and a normal human benefits package will be the losing party.

The only way I see out of this lunacy, is for the EU to impose stricter regulations as to what airlines can do, how far they can go with contract labor, and how they can shop around Europe for the best place to have every piece of your company.
However, I assume the EU are mostly in the pocket of the airlines in question, and won't budge unless a string of accidents will swing the public opinion to make them change, like in the US.
PlanetEarth is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2015, 22:44
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Norway
Posts: 286
WORD somethingclever and yes PlanetEarth. Only when Joe Public has lost a few friends or relatives in a couple of fatal crashes will the politicians decide/ feel pressured to do something. They already know.......
Hotel Charlie is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2015, 22:49
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Wherever Crewing send me
Posts: 74
Sadly...

The only way I see out of this lunacy, is for the EU to impose stricter regulations as to what airlines can do, how far they can go with contract labor, and how they can shop around Europe for the best place to have every piece of your company.
Or sadly, and probably more realistically, we will have a spate of hull losses, and maybe the general public will remember that what we do isn't always just a walk in the the park...

Last edited by Station_Calling; 28th Feb 2015 at 22:50. Reason: Edited to add: crossed with Hotel Charlie.
Station_Calling is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2015, 00:07
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 332
How many pilots roughly are on strike? On another website it mentions 70, surely there must be a lot more?

Good luck to them, a much needed strike IMO.
McBruce is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2015, 05:06
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 447
Are the conditions of the core pilots that much superior to the contractors for discussion purpose can anyone actually post a known comparison ? I follow they are trying to erode the core pilots conditions but will this make them equal to or less than their counterparts they seek support from? Also,was it core pilots that objected to contractors being DEC core after 2 years or management? Historically Scandinavia pilots have always enjoyed better terms and conditions than their counterparts, is this a levelling of the playing field or are Management excavating it!
Kirks gusset is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2015, 07:38
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Europe
Posts: 37
There are 70 currently on strike. This will expand to all NAN employees on Wednesday, making the number roughly 650.
GearDownThreeGreen is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2015, 09:04
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Huh huh huh ... what was the question again?
Posts: 309
Good luck colleagues at Norwegian. You have my best wishes and hope you receive the support from your fellow pilots to stand firm and not be undermined. It's a very important battle you simply must win.

The T&C race to the base coming to an airline near you soon ......
Beavis and Butthead is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2015, 09:25
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 70
something clever,

Best post I have ever read on PPRuNe. You have summed up the situation very well.
adolf hucker is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2015, 10:19
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: .
Posts: 63
@somethingclever: Great post! Should almost be made a sticky.

Originally Posted by john_smith
People often (almost gleefully) seem to predict this on this site.

It won't happen. People really have to stop shoehorning safety into arguments about terms and conditions.
Hopefully it won't, but many argue that it has already happened on several occasions, especially in other parts of the world.

Safety management is a lot about being analytical, proactive and more or less chronically worried about trends, signals, leads etc. which might connect to a future accident.

Acting in a cocksure manner about this stuff is far from good airmanship in my opinion. DYEF?

I can recommend a look at safety literature from authors like James Reason, Jens Rasmussen, Barry Turner, Karl Weick, Sidney Dekker and others. Good old common sense also comes to mind.

Last edited by LS-4; 1st Mar 2015 at 10:37.
LS-4 is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2015, 16:59
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SPAIN
Age: 39
Posts: 397
I can not believe It...
samca is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2015, 08:26
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Cold and Dark
Age: 41
Posts: 25
Norwegian is now demanding Doctor's Certificates for anyone reporting sick or being unfit to fly.

Talk about self-inflicted damage. Show me the AME who won't sign off on a sick not due to the stress cuased by the current situation. Or any other medical issue which you suspect might set the crew or passengers in danger.

Now show me the AME who signs off on anything less than 3-5 days once you've been in his office. Most likely, he'll sign you off for a week or two just to cover his own ass. While self-declaration might leave you off work for a day or two, this is going to drag it to a week or two. In half of the cases the AME is going to ask you to come back for another appointment just to allow you back for work.

Seriously. This has been pondered by every airline manager since the beginning of time. Any everyone up to now has come to the conclusion that demanding sick notes from crew members is comparable to shooting yourself in the foot with a 12 gauge shotgun.

Last edited by ENSA; 2nd Mar 2015 at 08:43.
ENSA is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2015, 08:47
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,349
Given the deletion of my post last night,it seems my "opinions" are not welcome, so, we will stick to the facts.


Dear Norwegian Pilots,
in light of the ongoing circumstances, and the fact that we all face uncertainty for our future as professional airline pilots, we find it timely to re-state a few important things.
We do expect NAN to be «claimed» bankrupt shortly and the following scenarios are highly possible;
- NAN pilots may be offered individual OSM contracts (or another agency or a Norwegian subsidiary)
- Norwegian will publish false information telling that «YOU» are the only NAN pilot missing on this new «on-your-own« setup. This will NOT be trustworthy information when it comes from Norwegian, OSM, other agencies involved or media!
- All other pilots currently flying Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA aircrafts will be handed the same «offer» - an individual contract with no basis in any CLA. You will only be offered this individual contract if your colleagues in NO / SE / DK have not accepted it, so why would you? DO NOT fall for the temptation to sign it to get closer to home!
We do find it appropriate to highlight the consequences it will have to accept any of those individual offers or rumors presented to you by the company or their agencies in this situation. If anybody jumps out of the current sit - the strike situation - and sign any individual contracts it will be a moral suicide, and it will be followed up in accordance with international scab practice set down by IFALPA.
In the past it has been common to refer to the various pilot groups as «Core» and «Non-Core» or «Euro pilots». We find it very important that we do not create walls between ourselves by placing us in either the one or the other group; WE ARE ONE GROUP of Norwegian pilots!
To round it off, we need to shout it out again;
- DO NOT sell any days off!
- DO NOT sign any contracts which are NOT founded in a collective agreement and approved by NPG and your local union!
- DO NOT go to work when you are not fit for flight!
- DO NOT accept that your profession is ruined by bad decisions by your leaders!
- DO NOT refrain from reporting all safety issues - including your own performance due to excess stress induced by your employer/agency/real employer!
captplaystation is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2015, 09:11
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Utopia
Posts: 234
So we have become Ryanair II, with crew food (for the moment anyway) and without a fixed roster pattern (EU bases). Anyone considering leaving FR to come here, I wouldn't bother, and I'm shocked to hear myself say those words, believe me!

Another nail in the coffin for the professional aviation career. So, So Sad.

100% NPU!


Just my own humble opinion of course!
737 Jockey is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.