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Is it really that bad?

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Is it really that bad?

Old 28th Feb 2014, 11:56
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3 years into low cost flying and I'm convinced that to have a 40 year+ career I will need to go part time at some point. Who knows what the state pension or retirement age will be by the time I get there!
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 13:30
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I would agree with many of the comments on this forum. I strongly agree with 'Cliff Secord's' posts, and 'Greenlights' makes some very good points.

I was a keen not-so-young thing only a few years ago; all that mattered was getting that first airline job...and then everything would be OK.

I trained via the modular route, kept my training costs to around £65k and paid cash so I'm debt free. I finished training in 2007 and after 9 months of searching I joined an airline which rated me on a Jet and paid me well (for the first couple of years). I'm simply telling you this because I think I've been about as fortunate as it is possible to be in this game. I am also now paid about 25% less than I was in 2008, but...I still have a job.

I have been trying to get out of this business for 3 years now and with a bit of luck I will make the jump later in the year. Flying can be fun - though it can also be boring - and I know I'll miss it. But I'm going to make the jump because it has cost me my life for the last 6 years and it's not worth that high a price.

You won't fit into with the rest of the world because your work pattern won't be a 7 day cycle. When you get home from a trip all you will do is sleep, wash and then you're back out the door again. You will have to request leave 6-12 months in advance, and it is likely you won't get it. As a result, you won't have many close friendships or relationships.

You will live out of a suitcase; you will become an expert in the art of frugal hotel living. Your diet will be poor, especially if you eat airline food. Your health will suffer, and you'll probably put on weight because you will frequently be too tired to exercise, but you won't want to sleep during the day because you have to get up early the next morning. This will also mean that you watch a lot of useless TV rather than getting on with the stuff that you need to do.

Every 6 months you will run the gauntlet of the sim check, and every 12 the line check. This can be quite stressful when the airline is using them as a means to reduce headcount.

I had a career previous to this one and so for me at least, I'm going to enjoy my life eating well, sleeping enough, spending time with my wife and friends, and working in an industry which isn't so badly managed.

Ironically enough, this decision will actually cost my airline because they will have to train a newbie who won't know how to operate the aircraft as well as I can, but they'll have to pay him the same because they haven't given me a pay rise.
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 18:19
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Anyone who goes into this industry without gaining a degree life skills and another career as a back up first and who doesnt manage to minimise flight training costs to the levels oompa loompa did really are setting themselves up for a very tough time.

Dont allow yourself to get sucked into the big fto marketing dream and pay top dollar and go directly to the RH seat of a jet at ryr or ezy. I can assure you that you will be a very long way from having made it at that point. No matter what the schools tell you.

I went part time recently. Still use my degree. Money is better and shifts are much better in my other job than the locos (I too was lucky to avoid) -unfortunately friends followed the ctc/ezy and the oaa/ryr path and after an initial period of delight just 2-4 years down the line are actively trying to get out. At 2 years you definitely wont have got anywhere near paying your debt off, also unlikely at 4 years. Dont worry about the fto or the loco this situation suits them perfectly. As they appear to have a never ending supply of cadets with access to obscene sums of money.

The job isnt what it was certain quarters mainly the locos are trying to lower both pilots ts & cs and the profession standing - even down to pilots wearing anoraks and plastic coats (do a search on here). This is forcing virtually all operators to follow suit in the race to the bottom.

There is some excellent advice on here, mine is simply an opinion.
Best of luck
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Old 1st Mar 2014, 02:13
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Interesting thread.

I just don't see sustainable in the long term. To fly this amount of hours under these conditions. And, having been in a low cost (1000hrs a year) and in EK (not sure you consider it a legacy or another low cost) I can assure you that EK is far more tiring than my previous job.

I think I could cope with 1000 hrs a year of day flying. Not with 900 missing 1/3 of the night's sleep per month.

I'm under 30 and considering a career change too. And is not about money anymore, is that the way this industry is going made me hate what I used to love most: flying.
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Old 1st Mar 2014, 07:01
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I think there are multiple signs across the Western world that the party is coming to an end for employers. The gluttonous uptake of pilots that occurred during the LoCo mega growth years is turning into the belly ache of youngish disillusioned and much abused workforce who realise that they have been conned. The upside is that employers will be forced to improve t&c's in line with the law of supply and demand.

oompa lumpa good post, at least you had an available exit.

RT Jones, your state pension age will almost certainly be 70, assuming you are 25-30 now, according to government websites.

BALPA members should have received a Pension Newsletter yesterday (email) highlighting the appalling DC pension plans the majority of UK airlines are now offering, which, on minimum contributions, will pay out about 10% of your final salary as a pension after 30 years service.

So career scenario
Training Costs, rubbish salary, divorce due to worklife, penury in retirement, death. Naaaa, I'm only kidding you, it won't be that bad!
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Old 1st Mar 2014, 07:12
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Interesting thread, sure there's good jobs out there somewhere but I didn't realise it's quite this bad in fixed-wing. Out of interest what rosters are you guys working, do you work equal time?

One thing I noticed from my buddies who joined the airlines is the fairly rapid withering up of the joyful Facebook updates about how good the job is, they sound fairly knackered and depressed to me after the honeymoon period has worn off.
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Old 1st Mar 2014, 21:45
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I'm on a 5:2:6:3, going onto a 6:2:6:3 for the summer. Fatigue might be an issue....
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Old 2nd Mar 2014, 07:01
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Out of interest, what about leave on top and how many standbys do you get? I work 14/14 offshore which works for my family, I'm not sure if I could cope with family life on a permanent 6/2/6/3. Even friends who've gone long haul have told me it is a nice lifestyle, but permanently tiring.
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Old 2nd Mar 2014, 10:57
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My work is 6:1 continuously, occasionally 13:1. If I want more days off I have to book (unpaid) leave. That's life, these days.
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Old 2nd Mar 2014, 11:45
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That you guys are accepting these kind of rosters, i dont get it. Think outside the box. There are still other jobs out there. 13 days on 1 off!!! I hope you dont have a family at home.
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Old 2nd Mar 2014, 12:34
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Woody - nope, no family, fortunately.
This isn't an airline imposed roster. This is necessity of being self employed and working for multiple customers. To keep them happy you have to work non-stop.

My point is that the airline rosters are bad, but life elsewhere isn't exactly a bed of roses either.
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Old 2nd Mar 2014, 12:48
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This is just my personal opinion, so feel free to correct me where im wrong.
Traditionally the entry level jobs in aviation where badly paid so even though training was expensive after a reasonable amount of time prospective pilots would jump to a legacy carrier where they could enjoy an upper middle class standard of living. In the old days a young student or a mature career changer could afford training without significant debt and later could hope for a reasonable pay and a cream of the crop job. The key over here was patience and determination. Now days cheap credit and the "I want it now" mentality lead many people to integrated schools with massive amount of debt hoping to achieve the job and the salary of the past. While low cost operators were hiring it was OK but now supply is well over demand. For example i read somewhere that in the US there are about 30.000 professional pilots flying for the legacies. So say that every year there is a need for 3.000 pilots,considering the amount of graduates from aviation colleges like ERAU and the military guys retiring, someone has to be extremely lucky to fly with the big players. I believe that the same, or worst, applies to Europe taking into account the lack of general aviation.Furthermore in Europe established carriers take their own cadets. In order for the T and Cs to be better there has to be a massive expansion or a much more limited supply. With the amount of people graduating from schools all over i doubt that there will be a limited supply in Europe anytime soon.
My personal view on this one is simple,
if the required hours for the CPL were for example 400 then it would be much more difficult for someone to earn his wings in an integrated school in a year or so.For someone in order to be a pilot would be a long time goal and determination would be needed. Furthermore earning all that hours would mean that more mature candidates would enter the profession. Generally speaking a mature person has more responsibilities in life and demands better T and Cs. Thats my thoughts on the matter.
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Old 2nd Mar 2014, 13:27
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When I was growing up I would have done pretty much anything to be a pilot. In the end I was forced to give up on the idea as my eyesight was not good enough to pass the medicals. Best thing that ever happened to me.

I know a number of pilots of varying ages / seniority and the general consensus is that the industry sucks these days. And I don't see it getting better anytime soon. Airlines constantly cutting to the bone to make profit and expecting pilots to pay for their own training, putting them on contracts that offer little job security etc etc. And to top it all off, I am not convinced the flying is very appealing with terrible work/life balance and 98% of the task basically systems monitoring. There are a few lucky ones out there that love the job and have very good employers/ employment terms but they are few and far between IMHO.

As for me I am lucky enough to work in an entirely different industry earning way more than the highest paid Captains out there and I get to travel around the world a lot (for both business and vacations). So my advice....if it is getting to see the world that motivates you then there are a stack of careers to consider out there that offer better pay, better security, better work/life balance and more rewarding career...and if you still have a passion for flying, get a PPL and do some real flying at the weekend.

Good luck!!!!
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Old 2nd Mar 2014, 14:02
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I think personally that we sometimes forget the day in day out drudge of a 9-5 job in the real world. We also forget the state of the economy and the difficulty there is in the real world to get a decent job against the cut throat workforce and corporate greed that also goes on there. Dont kid yourself that the real world is a whole lot better, its not.

I have been very fortunate in my career so my view of aviation is somewhat rosy, but equally I realise its not the same as it was. I decided to take the leap of faith and naively left a 9-5 to learn to fly in my early 30s. I got a job in the LOCOs in the early days of their growth, pre 9-11. It was before they realised their present business model and recruitment strategy. I moved on a few years later and once again was lucky to get into what I believe is a good career job and now in my late 40s I fly LHS long haul with a good salary, pension and lifestyle. Yes I fly long hours and nights but that I knew before I launched into this career. I have no illusions about the real world though and how bloody hard my non pilot friends work and for a fraction of what I do. Yes they have weekends and Christmas off. The time I have off is generally quality time, not just crashed at home after a 2 hour daily commute bundled on a train or trudging up the motorway.

Would I do it now? Probably not because it has become a different beast. Am I happy with my choice now I look back? Yes I am. Horses for courses……
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Old 3rd Mar 2014, 11:18
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Where's the pride?

Every industry is doing it tough. People are getting laid off left, right and centre. That's how it is. We laid off 100 employees last year (probably 70% of our workers). I'm in the construction industry currently transitioning to a career in aviation.
I am 28, and completing my CPL.
My current job is good, I earn great money, but it doesn't fulfil me. I don't have any pride in my job. Its just a job. A boring, job that pays well.
I've always wanted to fly. Every time I put on that uniform and my wings, I feel so proud; full of pride.
I'd gladly take a pay cut to be in the air every day.

Surely every professional pilot out there, flying big/small jets was aware of the lifestyle!? Its no secret. You don't fly aircraft for the lifestyle or money, you fly aircraft because you want to fly aircraft!

It seems tough, but if you truly, whole heartedly know and feel that you belong in the air, then that's where you need to be.
Nearly every pilot started out in the same frame of mind, with the same determination and heart. To fly because its what we're passionate about. Like so many pilots have said who are contemplating a change "hmmm, but I'll miss it if I leave". How many people can say that in the workforce? I won't miss construction, that's for damn sure, or the MONEY.

But if you have no pride in your job, and its not fulfilling, then leave. Like my first boss said when I was an apprentice at 17, "If you have pride in your job, and pride in your work, you'll always have a job, and you'll always have work".

Maybe I'm just being naive, but I work hard, and have kept my job when times got tough because somehow the people above me knew I was an asset to the company because I did my job well, and took I pride in my work.

By the way, I know life can be demanding, and hard.. long hours, poor sleep patterns, diet.. but its not ALL bad, ALL the time. Surely there's moments of appreciation for what you have.
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Old 3rd Mar 2014, 13:10
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The key is that you know what you're getting involved in, and it isn't the same job as pre-2000.

Talk of T&Cs increasing is even possible from where we are today, but it's not going to be the upper middle class job it once was.

If we're honest, it does not require the ability of yesteryear and hence you don't need to pay top dollar for an exceptional individual as you don't need them for today's shift.

In fact, a top individual is going to be complete pain in the @rse to manage with lower T&Cs and a boring job.
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Old 3rd Mar 2014, 21:35
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My current job is good, I earn great money, but it doesn't fulfil me. I don't have any pride in my job. Its just a job.A boring, job that pays well.
I've always wanted to fly. Every time I put on that uniform and my wings, I feel so proud; full of pride.
I'd gladly take a pay cut to be in the air every day.
Sooo ... You're giving it up for a ... boring job .. that pays terribly (or more accurately, gives a terrible return on time and money invested).

You wonder if you're being naïve - Yes, you're being naïve! I am an aviation nut, but that pride and enjoyment lasts five minutes, in what is a very repetitive job, working with often quite egotistical or odd people; Frankly I have found construction workers much more rounded and grounded personalities. You say you appreciated being appreciated by the people above you - Oh boy, you are switching into the wrong career! - Nobody will care how well you get the plane from A to B, provided you just do it, and at the absolute minimum renumeration; Even if you are the next Bob Hoover, you will still get promoted at exactly the same speed as a clueless contemporary who scrapes through every check and keeps their heads down.
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Old 3rd Mar 2014, 22:00
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After a 12hr 4 sector day when I get off the plane the first feeling I feel is not fulfilment!
If you want to fly an aircraft for the pure delight of flying then do it as a hobby, when you do a hobby as a career, it soon becomes just another job. Lifestyle, is not what it was 20 years ago and I don't think ever will be!
For me, the salary commanded is not for the complexity or day to day flying, but for when **** hits the fan, or even more likely, stopping them getting that far. The responsibility of a captain in my eyes is pretty big, the buck stops with them.
As has been said, most days by the end of it I barely remember where I've been or what has happened. I'd like to keep it that way. At the end of the day, its a job, that provides me an income and time off so I can do what I want. For me, it does that.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the views, the sunsets and 99% of the people I work with are lovely and excellent fun. I feel I had quite a lucky break, straight into easy jet after flight school. An unsecured loan which I am now able to pay back and have a reasonable lifestyle. Ok yes I am 4 years in so it didn't all appear straight away.
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Old 3rd Mar 2014, 22:08
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I have not come across any colleagues who do not take pride in the job they personally do.

If you have "pride in your job and pride in your work" that will almost certainly not correlate to always having work in aviation, here anyway. It could be stated that you are not really viewed as an asset by an airline if the way you are treated is testimony. You're an unfortunate requirement; the same as insurance policies, GNSS approvals and noise certificates. Thats the way it is - business. We are all used to that and nobody moans about the lack of recognition.

Weary of the whole damn thing my sights are lowered, a decent full time contract that allows my family to stay in their home country, the odd job opening that recognises some good old fashioned experience rather than peddling a falsely titled full cost but flexible pay type rating 'cadet scheme' aimed at young starlets and some half decent time off will do. I can't be fussed inciting much hope for anything else.

Playing the Devil's advocate; If you want to always have work, It's better if you don't overly value what you have to offer and as you say gladly take pay cuts to fly. They know it and use it, we have done it for them collectively. The crystal meth like habit the UK seems to have developed with cheap trainee schemes/PPY/ flex contracts sheds light to the claim. As a brand new Pilot walking into that first interview room at CTC/ John Doe airline, the stench of love blindness with the idea and Kamikaze like devotedness permeates for all to smell like a cheap cologne.

Best of luck with your training by the way. It's good you have industry experience to fall back on and it's a sensible way round to do it.

Last edited by Cliff Secord; 3rd Mar 2014 at 22:57.
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Old 3rd Mar 2014, 22:27
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I understand the difficulties involved in getting a good paying job vs lifestyle. But what I don't understand is all these complainers of how the job sucks, money is bad, odd cockpit personalities, all of you have many many posts on pprune. Just give it up already, log off pprune, and get on with your life.

btw, I landed a great job last year, very happy. But it took me 13 years of flying tprops, jets for 2nd rate airlines. And you know what, even flying for 2nd rate airlines I made more money and had more time off than almost all of my friends/relatives doing something else.

Have fun guys, otherwise I don't wish to see you on my flight deck.
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