Is it really that bad?
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Is it really that bad?
For about 3 yrs I've been on Pprune and many of the things I hear about a pilots life is negative.
My main dream is to travel and the fact that I also love aviation. But with all the news and forums I have read I want to ask this question.
Is it really that bad?
My main dream is to travel and the fact that I also love aviation. But with all the news and forums I have read I want to ask this question.
Is it really that bad?
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Day to day the nuts and bolts of the job can be very pleasant, rewarding and enjoyable.
Taken down to the bare bones nearly all commercial flying is basically 'shift work' which is well known to wear people out over time. The deeper problems can lie in the things behind the scenes, large financial burden, short term employment stability issues, a requirement to achieve at near as 100 percent of ability at all times coupled with shift work can make for a stressful old mix for what is basically a flesh and blood machine that is of course human IOS update 1.0 and only capable of so much.
It's a very expensive occupation there is no doubt. The risk burden is being pushed further onto the Pilot workforce; charging for training coupled with temporary/ fractional fixed term employment contracts. This happens in business of course when there is excess capacity and supply (look at air cargo at the minute!). The customer can pick and choose the terms and place greater 'risk' on the provider. In this case because there is an endless supply of keen people with desire to enter the profession. The airlines ever financially driven, successfully and insidiously shift what was previously their own burden further onto the employee or contractor. Unlike a business though, made up of many people, a Pilot has to carry that risk and burden on his todd which can make life quite a bumpy ride sometimes. This doesn't sit well with a job that requires clear thinking. It's been an area of focus on the industry for sometime now.
Just thoughts from myself, of course only my opinion. You'll perhaps hear some disagreement from the odd person sitting pretty in lovely jobs and good on them. But unfortunately a large amount of aircrew are not in that position.
Taken down to the bare bones nearly all commercial flying is basically 'shift work' which is well known to wear people out over time. The deeper problems can lie in the things behind the scenes, large financial burden, short term employment stability issues, a requirement to achieve at near as 100 percent of ability at all times coupled with shift work can make for a stressful old mix for what is basically a flesh and blood machine that is of course human IOS update 1.0 and only capable of so much.
It's a very expensive occupation there is no doubt. The risk burden is being pushed further onto the Pilot workforce; charging for training coupled with temporary/ fractional fixed term employment contracts. This happens in business of course when there is excess capacity and supply (look at air cargo at the minute!). The customer can pick and choose the terms and place greater 'risk' on the provider. In this case because there is an endless supply of keen people with desire to enter the profession. The airlines ever financially driven, successfully and insidiously shift what was previously their own burden further onto the employee or contractor. Unlike a business though, made up of many people, a Pilot has to carry that risk and burden on his todd which can make life quite a bumpy ride sometimes. This doesn't sit well with a job that requires clear thinking. It's been an area of focus on the industry for sometime now.
Just thoughts from myself, of course only my opinion. You'll perhaps hear some disagreement from the odd person sitting pretty in lovely jobs and good on them. But unfortunately a large amount of aircrew are not in that position.
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Doesn't matter if you are pilot or anyone else, life was always bad for pessimist
. I've chosen a life of pilot cos I never liked a life of some office worker. Seeing the cloud from above, flying into it, kiss landing on the RW is incomparable.
. I've chosen a life of pilot cos I never liked a life of some office worker. Seeing the cloud from above, flying into it, kiss landing on the RW is incomparable.
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HumaidDaWorld, I personally would not recommend this career to anyone. I have young cousins and nephews who are interested and I constantly remind their parents to steer them away. Guys like you (clever, young, super keen) are plentiful. There will never be a shortage of your sort. The industry has finally realised this and hence we as pilots are being abused left, right and centre. I now fly only in the Summer because I make 3 x more money in the Winter doing my old job. There are only 2 or 3 proper career airlines left in the UK and competition to get into them is extremely high.
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[QUOTE]Doesn't matter if you are pilot or anyone else, life was always bad for pessimist. I've chosen a life of pilot cos I never liked a life of some office worker. Seeing the cloud from above, flying into it, kiss landing on the RW is incomparable.[QUOTE]
You see. That's great but it's very blinkered and not the most emotionally mature approach to planning your career. I love flying, I started years ago when young myself. However, when you're in your 30s/40s being made redundant with a mortgage to pay, young children and facing a choice of paying yet more tens of thousands for a type rating to fly on a contract that is as short and bendy as a horticultural contract picking vegetables in the fens, or leaving the country for weeks on a shady 'commuting' contract that gives you 10 days off after 6 weeks away then calling yourself an optimist might help but, not in my experience or in the experience of many of my friends and colleagues in that situation.
It's this "slipped the surly bonds of Earth, danced the skies on laughter-silvered balls" kind of juvenile hog that powers the problem. As long as there are enough professional hobbiest short term thinking young guys/girls being wooed with wonderfully arrogant high brow agencies and Airlines offering Faustian deals, then it goes on. Certainly in the UK.
Hypothetically, imagine a bizarre world where due to some Orwellian rules on recruitment of flight crew, only mature folk in their mid 30s with a house and family were eligible. The job would not be in this state as people would be less bent on sacrificing everything to do it. Of course, air fares would be higher. Naturally that scenario is rubbish and can't happen. It would be a very bad ethos, as young entrants bring great qualities of trainability and enthusiasm. The low fare dam gates opened years ago and it's hard to put the water back. Now a lot of the companies are at it. Some good eggs don't don't abuse this yearning like Monarch and Virgin Atlantic. But as Super Pilot said, they are very few in number.
I would add to the original poster given you're just 16 years old, I think you're very wise and sensible to look beyond the immediate attraction ask yourself the wider questions. That approach will serve you well in whatever you do.
You see. That's great but it's very blinkered and not the most emotionally mature approach to planning your career. I love flying, I started years ago when young myself. However, when you're in your 30s/40s being made redundant with a mortgage to pay, young children and facing a choice of paying yet more tens of thousands for a type rating to fly on a contract that is as short and bendy as a horticultural contract picking vegetables in the fens, or leaving the country for weeks on a shady 'commuting' contract that gives you 10 days off after 6 weeks away then calling yourself an optimist might help but, not in my experience or in the experience of many of my friends and colleagues in that situation.
It's this "slipped the surly bonds of Earth, danced the skies on laughter-silvered balls" kind of juvenile hog that powers the problem. As long as there are enough professional hobbiest short term thinking young guys/girls being wooed with wonderfully arrogant high brow agencies and Airlines offering Faustian deals, then it goes on. Certainly in the UK.
Hypothetically, imagine a bizarre world where due to some Orwellian rules on recruitment of flight crew, only mature folk in their mid 30s with a house and family were eligible. The job would not be in this state as people would be less bent on sacrificing everything to do it. Of course, air fares would be higher. Naturally that scenario is rubbish and can't happen. It would be a very bad ethos, as young entrants bring great qualities of trainability and enthusiasm. The low fare dam gates opened years ago and it's hard to put the water back. Now a lot of the companies are at it. Some good eggs don't don't abuse this yearning like Monarch and Virgin Atlantic. But as Super Pilot said, they are very few in number.
I would add to the original poster given you're just 16 years old, I think you're very wise and sensible to look beyond the immediate attraction ask yourself the wider questions. That approach will serve you well in whatever you do.
Last edited by Cliff Secord; 21st Feb 2014 at 12:27.
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Cliff you think I'm by my age of 35 didn't make it up, I've got family-children are growing and maybe I wouldn't want my children to become pilots. Who knows what might come up, I'd be proud if at least one of them would become. If I went back in the days when I had that choice I'd choose it again to feel that first take off first flight first landing. The thread starting kid has a dream and we as professional pilots shouldn't break it. And UK is not the only place where pilots are needed or not needed
. You tried it and chose your way after all. Being a pilot is worth dreaming of. Good luck kid, you won't regret.
. You tried it and chose your way after all. Being a pilot is worth dreaming of. Good luck kid, you won't regret.
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@HDW
it is very good and clever that you are asking this question. Even if you have a dream, it will not hurt to be realistic. When i was your age, i was also dreaming about being a pilot. Finally i managed the dream but after almost 6 years flying, i decided to leave this profession for a lot of reasons. I remember a poster saying: it is not because you love doing something, that it also needs to be a job. I agree, flying is fun, but if it is your job there are a lot of things, beside the fun factor, that comes into play.
You like travelling?? I would suggest to join the shipping industry. Always a lack of officers and well paid, and after done your years on sea, much more options regarding future perspectives.
Good luck whatever you choose!!
it is very good and clever that you are asking this question. Even if you have a dream, it will not hurt to be realistic. When i was your age, i was also dreaming about being a pilot. Finally i managed the dream but after almost 6 years flying, i decided to leave this profession for a lot of reasons. I remember a poster saying: it is not because you love doing something, that it also needs to be a job. I agree, flying is fun, but if it is your job there are a lot of things, beside the fun factor, that comes into play.
You like travelling?? I would suggest to join the shipping industry. Always a lack of officers and well paid, and after done your years on sea, much more options regarding future perspectives.
Good luck whatever you choose!!
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Ulugbek-pilot
My sincere apologies, I didn't mean to insuate you were juvenile in your approach and can see it does read like that which is incorrect of me.
My point was that I think the thinking can be quite blinkered when starting out young because flying is so alluring on the face of it. It's one thing as you know flying light aircraft and enjoying all those things but the career itself is changing and a choice to enter can bring many more ramifications.
At no point did I say to the original poster categorically not to do it or am I attempting to break his/her 'dream'. Cold honest sensible considerations are required when signing up to a career in flying. Its different if it was just flying for fun. Large loans and repayments are no respecter of dreams or age. When a 16 year old signs up to the army I doubt whether they just say 'don't worry about everything else you get to fire automatic weapons and dress up like Rambo, it's great fun'. They take pains to educate new entrants all areas of their chosen avenue, harsh bits and all.
I also didn't say the UK was the only area where this happens, I can only speak from experience of the UK and as I added it is only my opinion.
I've a couple of friends who are Officers in the UK Merchant Navy, they seem to like it. You're obviously away a lot but but all the training was paid for right from the start at college and there is real progression up the ranks.
All good talking points!
My sincere apologies, I didn't mean to insuate you were juvenile in your approach and can see it does read like that which is incorrect of me.
My point was that I think the thinking can be quite blinkered when starting out young because flying is so alluring on the face of it. It's one thing as you know flying light aircraft and enjoying all those things but the career itself is changing and a choice to enter can bring many more ramifications.
At no point did I say to the original poster categorically not to do it or am I attempting to break his/her 'dream'. Cold honest sensible considerations are required when signing up to a career in flying. Its different if it was just flying for fun. Large loans and repayments are no respecter of dreams or age. When a 16 year old signs up to the army I doubt whether they just say 'don't worry about everything else you get to fire automatic weapons and dress up like Rambo, it's great fun'. They take pains to educate new entrants all areas of their chosen avenue, harsh bits and all.
I also didn't say the UK was the only area where this happens, I can only speak from experience of the UK and as I added it is only my opinion.
I've a couple of friends who are Officers in the UK Merchant Navy, they seem to like it. You're obviously away a lot but but all the training was paid for right from the start at college and there is real progression up the ranks.
All good talking points!
Last edited by Cliff Secord; 20th Feb 2014 at 17:57.
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If you want to fly because you love flying then the other option is to get a good job and fly for pleasure. I have several friends in the airline industry and frankly on balance I'm glad I didn't do it.
As a private pilot I can go where I want, when I want with who I want. The flying is still (probably more) enjoyable as it is hands on piloting skills 100% of the time and you fly low and slow enough to take in the sights. It's surprising how many airline pilots also fly light aircraft. Why do you suppose that is?
However having said that, if you have a dream then go for it because if you don't you will always wonder 'what if?'
As a private pilot I can go where I want, when I want with who I want. The flying is still (probably more) enjoyable as it is hands on piloting skills 100% of the time and you fly low and slow enough to take in the sights. It's surprising how many airline pilots also fly light aircraft. Why do you suppose that is?
However having said that, if you have a dream then go for it because if you don't you will always wonder 'what if?'
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The invest 120k to earn 20k thread is quite relevant. The FAA 1500 ruling is interesting if not controversial to some people. UK used to have an unofficial system where sole experience did count and aided self balancing of terms, but of course it's changed a lot.
I know the UK market is different from the USA. I know many say regulation isn't the answer. Outside of flying in non safety critical industries it could be left to run its course and survival of the fittest philosophy left to do its thing with employees and employers. I can't see our regulator stepping in to referee this mess anytime soon as long as audits prove everything is safe on the face of it. Pretty damn obtuse of them.
If it were me I wouldn't bother just get a good Job and fly microlights about on weekends
I know the UK market is different from the USA. I know many say regulation isn't the answer. Outside of flying in non safety critical industries it could be left to run its course and survival of the fittest philosophy left to do its thing with employees and employers. I can't see our regulator stepping in to referee this mess anytime soon as long as audits prove everything is safe on the face of it. Pretty damn obtuse of them.
If it were me I wouldn't bother just get a good Job and fly microlights about on weekends
Last edited by Wireless; 20th Feb 2014 at 19:32.
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Wouldn't want to do anything else but fly, even my big boring jet! But I certainly wouldn't want to start in this lark or be at the bottom of the ladder now!
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Such a mixed bag. As someone near the beginning of their career my salary is higher than any of my mates from sixth form (doctors, engineers etc.), admittedly not as good as the old days but still good. Bear in mind whilst I reach my top earnings faster, in the long term they will probably earn more though.
Job security, yes well, the last few years have proved anyone anywhere can be stung. Even me, who as I previously mentioned is right at the start, well I've been laid off once already!
I think it's all about where you end up too. Some airlines are naturally better than others in all aspects. I won't go into that because these forums are full of posts about said airlines.
All I will say is for as much heartache and work it's taken to get where I am today, rewind 6 years and I would do it all again. Call me an optimist a pessimist a dreamer whatever, but I've always known I wanted to fly and the job has truly matched up to my expectations so far. Maybe at 35 I won't feel the same. But right now that's my thoughts.
Job security, yes well, the last few years have proved anyone anywhere can be stung. Even me, who as I previously mentioned is right at the start, well I've been laid off once already!
I think it's all about where you end up too. Some airlines are naturally better than others in all aspects. I won't go into that because these forums are full of posts about said airlines.
All I will say is for as much heartache and work it's taken to get where I am today, rewind 6 years and I would do it all again. Call me an optimist a pessimist a dreamer whatever, but I've always known I wanted to fly and the job has truly matched up to my expectations so far. Maybe at 35 I won't feel the same. But right now that's my thoughts.
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If I had fully understood the financial risks I took back then I would have never done it. Back then I did not realize just how hard it was to get a foot through the door to the first couple of jobs before you have experience enough to really be able to compete for good jobs. Today that financial risk is WAAAY higher than back then. We also had no internet to educate ourselves about the industry in the same way as is possible today. Today there is no excuse not knowing exactly what you get yourself and your future family in to.
You really want to fly? Try the military or if you are 25 or younger (and European passport holder) try getting in to BA's or Lufthansa's cadet schemes, or whatever they call hem these days. Not speaking German and failing the DLR test will rule out Lufthansa. While trying these routes, get yourself a proper education to fall back on.
A military career is abviously going to be very different depending on which country you were born in but at least you are not going to pay for your training and there are quite a few non-flying career options to continue your career, both inside and outside the armed forces. BA and Lufthansa are big companies that are likely to be around for some time in one form or another. Start at 22 and you'll have your first command (and more importantly a decent pay) by the time you're 35.
CP
You really want to fly? Try the military or if you are 25 or younger (and European passport holder) try getting in to BA's or Lufthansa's cadet schemes, or whatever they call hem these days. Not speaking German and failing the DLR test will rule out Lufthansa. While trying these routes, get yourself a proper education to fall back on.
A military career is abviously going to be very different depending on which country you were born in but at least you are not going to pay for your training and there are quite a few non-flying career options to continue your career, both inside and outside the armed forces. BA and Lufthansa are big companies that are likely to be around for some time in one form or another. Start at 22 and you'll have your first command (and more importantly a decent pay) by the time you're 35.
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Its still a good life so long as you accept (and ignore) the fact that it is degraded from the heady years between 1950 and 1990, when there was a heady wiff of the exotic about anything to do with aviation and those who were involved in it.
Air travel is now as mundane as a bowel movement for the passengers and staff, so recalibrate what you expect from a career in flying and you won't be disappointed. It is now effectively a technical shift work job, akin to many others. The barrier to entry is mostly financial which you can either live with or not. Luck and timing will play their part in dictating whether you end up in a better or not so good job. Subsequently, with time and reasonable diligence you will end up a Captain with a very reasonable salary and hopefully a pension at the end of it all.
Personally, I would view a 40 year career with a LoCo as hell. To avoid insanity I would try to plan a career which takes advantage of the good things aviation has to offer. So, maybe a few years with a LoCo to get some experience, then perhaps a move to the ME or FE, but with an exit plan. Then maybe a few years doing some quality contract work (when the kids are older and you are more mobile), finishing off with a couple of years tooling round in a regional jet just to top up the pension income. Finally, retirement and a share in a nice little light a/c (or a yacht) and a holiday home somewhere exotic.
Many options are out there which will make aviation an interesting and rewarding life, even if the romance of being a pilot has largely gone. But, the happiest pilots I have met are the ones who have had a varied worklife.
All IMHO, of course!
Air travel is now as mundane as a bowel movement for the passengers and staff, so recalibrate what you expect from a career in flying and you won't be disappointed. It is now effectively a technical shift work job, akin to many others. The barrier to entry is mostly financial which you can either live with or not. Luck and timing will play their part in dictating whether you end up in a better or not so good job. Subsequently, with time and reasonable diligence you will end up a Captain with a very reasonable salary and hopefully a pension at the end of it all.
Personally, I would view a 40 year career with a LoCo as hell. To avoid insanity I would try to plan a career which takes advantage of the good things aviation has to offer. So, maybe a few years with a LoCo to get some experience, then perhaps a move to the ME or FE, but with an exit plan. Then maybe a few years doing some quality contract work (when the kids are older and you are more mobile), finishing off with a couple of years tooling round in a regional jet just to top up the pension income. Finally, retirement and a share in a nice little light a/c (or a yacht) and a holiday home somewhere exotic.
Many options are out there which will make aviation an interesting and rewarding life, even if the romance of being a pilot has largely gone. But, the happiest pilots I have met are the ones who have had a varied worklife.
All IMHO, of course!
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Good post by Macdo and reality from john_smith...
So, to sum up HumaidDaWorld;
COMPROMISE...COMPROMISE...COMPROMISE...at every step of the way!
So, to sum up HumaidDaWorld;
COMPROMISE...COMPROMISE...COMPROMISE...at every step of the way!
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My main dream is to travel and the fact that I also love aviation.
Get a well paid job that gives you a balanced challenging life; balance of work and social. Go on long-haul holidays in business class: join a flying club, perhaps a flying group and then go and fun fly. Even gliding; paragliding or paramotoring. Do some aeros. Every time you leave the ground is a flying contraption it will be fun and because you chose to do so.
Get a well paid job that gives you a balanced challenging life; balance of work and social. Go on long-haul holidays in business class: join a flying club, perhaps a flying group and then go and fun fly. Even gliding; paragliding or paramotoring. Do some aeros. Every time you leave the ground is a flying contraption it will be fun and because you chose to do so.
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PILOT SHORTAGE PROPAGANDA
THE AIRLINE CREATED PILOT SHORTAGE MYTH
In case you missed the impossible-to-ignore, cut-to-the-chase conclusion, the pilot shortage is another nasty side effect of the airline's industry race to the bottom of everything from employee wages and benefits to passenger service and comfort.
There's countless young guys waiting in the wings with a shiny new licence willing to work for next to nothing, a situation which is perfect for the airlines who ultimately will be more than happy to have the co-pilots fly for free and the captains on half their present income. This is their ultimate aim.
The flight schools also want everyone to believe in the mythical pilot shortage. Too many new pilots on the market means cheap wage dogs.
In 5 years with my current employer (cough), I have seen first officer salaries literally halved. HALVED. In five years.
ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND EURO DEBT AND 23,000 euro salary.
This is happening in the states also.
See this article..........
How miserly airlines created their own pilot shortage - Phoenix Business Journal
In case you missed the impossible-to-ignore, cut-to-the-chase conclusion, the pilot shortage is another nasty side effect of the airline's industry race to the bottom of everything from employee wages and benefits to passenger service and comfort.
There's countless young guys waiting in the wings with a shiny new licence willing to work for next to nothing, a situation which is perfect for the airlines who ultimately will be more than happy to have the co-pilots fly for free and the captains on half their present income. This is their ultimate aim.
The flight schools also want everyone to believe in the mythical pilot shortage. Too many new pilots on the market means cheap wage dogs.
In 5 years with my current employer (cough), I have seen first officer salaries literally halved. HALVED. In five years.
ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND EURO DEBT AND 23,000 euro salary.
This is happening in the states also.
See this article..........
How miserly airlines created their own pilot shortage - Phoenix Business Journal