Hats off to the RPG!
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Simple question: Firstly, I admit I'm out of it. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.
Considering what has happened to the profession, and not laying blame on anyone, would you suggest your son or daughter to follow in your foot-steps and become an airline pilot without the guarantee to join a legacy carrier: and stump up the cash for them to do so?
Not me! But then I've no kids. It's easy. If you also say no; why not and what are you going to do about it?
For everything else in the world I hear we have to leave it better for our children. Why is this not true of our profession?
Considering what has happened to the profession, and not laying blame on anyone, would you suggest your son or daughter to follow in your foot-steps and become an airline pilot without the guarantee to join a legacy carrier: and stump up the cash for them to do so?
Not me! But then I've no kids. It's easy. If you also say no; why not and what are you going to do about it?
For everything else in the world I hear we have to leave it better for our children. Why is this not true of our profession?
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if you were 22 with a CPL IR with debts to pay and the only show in town was Ryanair, what course of action would you take?
How about I just not apply to Ryanair? (Cant afford to pass the interview anyway.) Jesus don't people realise thats an option? There are other ways to start paying off debt that don't include destroying current and your own future jobs prospects.
Like Journey Man said:
Where do you 'get out' to once all the other airlines have been forced to adopt the same strategies Ryanair use in order to compete?
THey are replacing them.
Are these so called professionals so naive to think that by accepting this for their first job, all future jobs will be well paid and secure?
Qatar and BA have already switched to SSTR marketed as "cadetships". They were getting sick of idiots spending their cash at their competitors only to apply to BA and Qatar a few years down the line anyway and expect a free type rating and good salary. All carriers will switch to this model over the next few years. The options for the FR boys will be few and far between in a few years but the damage they are causing will never go away.
I would like to see anyone who's ever done this be boycotted by the rest of their pilot peers.
This thread tried to muster up support for them. Do not do this or you will just be helping them dog your own grave.
Last edited by TeaTowel; 10th Jun 2013 at 21:59.
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Why shouldn't they be shunned?
Like I said in my other post I always tell people who know some FR pilots what the their terms are and the money part of getting the job.
And they lose those friends and the odd girlfriend. Why? Because the FR pilot never mentioned it and they hear it first from me. It reflects quite poorly on someones character. What else are they willing to stoop to in work or out?
No other profession would work alongside these idiots so why should we?
Like I said in my other post I always tell people who know some FR pilots what the their terms are and the money part of getting the job.
And they lose those friends and the odd girlfriend. Why? Because the FR pilot never mentioned it and they hear it first from me. It reflects quite poorly on someones character. What else are they willing to stoop to in work or out?
No other profession would work alongside these idiots so why should we?
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It's the 100 year anniversary of Dublins 1913 lockout. Central to the dispute was the workers' right to unionise.
Those striking tram-drivers and the Dublin Met Police would have united to baton charge FR/SSTR/P2F drivers if they could meet them.
Those striking tram-drivers and the Dublin Met Police would have united to baton charge FR/SSTR/P2F drivers if they could meet them.
Last edited by TeaTowel; 10th Jun 2013 at 22:44.
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horrendous attitude towards his/her colleagues as you seem to.
Worse than sc.abs in a strike.
Last edited by TeaTowel; 10th Jun 2013 at 22:50.
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TeaTowel
So you're 23 fresh out of school? What gives you the right to moan about how things used to be, probably before you had a licence?
News flash mate, just by you not joining Ryanair or SSTR you are changing sod all. You alone will not change anything, if RPG are struggling, you have no hope.
Slightly confused how to Ryanair aren't creating jobs? Ok they aren't technically employed with Ryanair, but it's still somebody's job to sit in the right seat.
SSTR is not creating jobs? That doesn't even make sense. How does SSTR replace a job? Anyway, It's always been SSTR, just in the past you would have the money deducted from your wage, now you pay up front.
You could just tell that to those ex-Ryanair pilots who enjoy life at Thomson, Monarch, Virgin, BA and all the desert airlines.
<Insert your whinge about 'how it used to be' despite the fact you never experienced 'how it used to be'>
I see where the FR blame comes from. But then this is the same as every other industry. My friend, an A&E surgeon saving peoples lives the second they're wheeled off the ambulance, who trained for a lot longer than a pilot does, earns around £28k a year despite being a surgeon for 5 years.
Of course, most of the Ryanair guys will want to leave and go elsewhere, somewhere better perhaps. But when somebody in this thread said when FR pilots want to leave every other airline will be the same.....well then that's said airline's pilots fault! Not FR pilots. Just because FR pilots accepted poor T&Cs at their airline, doesn't mean BA, Virgin etc pilots have to accept it themselves. So your theory, and Journey Man's, is wrong. I'm not saying T&Cs will not get worse or better at other places, but FR pilots cannot take blame for crap happening at BA (for example). BA pilots have their own voices (and union!).
This here is the only reason I replied to this thread. This and "scabs". I've seen a lot of your posts. 95% of them are slagging off people with money, very negative and condescending. I agree, it's a shame you need so much money to learn to fly. But so what if somebody worked very hard over their life to earn lots of money to give their child the career they wanted. To be a pilot, perhaps?
Quite an immature attitude for you to have. The same immaturity you were condeming in this post?
But I do hope you keep your bitterness towards SSTR because for as long as you have this chip on your shoulder, I'll never have to share a flight deck with you.
News flash mate, just by you not joining Ryanair or SSTR you are changing sod all. You alone will not change anything, if RPG are struggling, you have no hope.
FR/SSTR/P2F are not creating jobs.
THey are replacing them.
THey are replacing them.
SSTR is not creating jobs? That doesn't even make sense. How does SSTR replace a job? Anyway, It's always been SSTR, just in the past you would have the money deducted from your wage, now you pay up front.
There are other ways to start paying off debt that don't include destroying current and your own future jobs prospects.
<Insert your whinge about 'how it used to be' despite the fact you never experienced 'how it used to be'>
I see where the FR blame comes from. But then this is the same as every other industry. My friend, an A&E surgeon saving peoples lives the second they're wheeled off the ambulance, who trained for a lot longer than a pilot does, earns around £28k a year despite being a surgeon for 5 years.
Of course, most of the Ryanair guys will want to leave and go elsewhere, somewhere better perhaps. But when somebody in this thread said when FR pilots want to leave every other airline will be the same.....well then that's said airline's pilots fault! Not FR pilots. Just because FR pilots accepted poor T&Cs at their airline, doesn't mean BA, Virgin etc pilots have to accept it themselves. So your theory, and Journey Man's, is wrong. I'm not saying T&Cs will not get worse or better at other places, but FR pilots cannot take blame for crap happening at BA (for example). BA pilots have their own voices (and union!).
I would like to see anyone who's ever done this be boycotted by the rest of their pilot peers.
Quite an immature attitude for you to have. The same immaturity you were condeming in this post?
But I do hope you keep your bitterness towards SSTR because for as long as you have this chip on your shoulder, I'll never have to share a flight deck with you.
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Tea Towel, just give up mate, the lunatics have taken over the asylum 
Pudoc, you show your inexperience with this statement:
And the rest of your post is just rubbish son.
Pudoc, you show your inexperience with this statement:
Anyway, It's always been SSTR, just in the past you would have the money deducted from your wage, now you pay up front.
Last edited by Leg; 11th Jun 2013 at 01:18.
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I often think that the damage we do to the industry is self fulfilling. The more people we allow to buy their way into, the less people thereare to improve conditions therein. Those that buy their way have proved themselves to be willing to accept the very worse the industry has to offer, in order to further their own interests. These people are surely not the sorts to harbour any real concern for their peers, as they can always jump ship to something better?
Having read with interest the recent comments posted, I am quite sure this is the case. These people seem to have no concept of how they are viewed or the morality of buying a place in the queue ahead of a more skilled candidate. Or at least if they do, they bury it deep down.
I’m appalled with the attitude and assessment of some of my peers in that they truly believe that Ryanair is the only option available to them. This is simply not the case, Ryanair was the easiest option available to them. Piloting is one of the most fiercely competitive industries I know of,and a first job is usually the fruit of years of labour rather than a purchased commodity. In a parallel universe, had these jobs been available through usual means, they would have gone most capable pilots by the well-trodden path of “starting at the bottom and working your way up” But sadly this is not the case any more,due in part to those who are happy to pay and Ryanairs appetite to accept them.
Whilst I would not purport open hostility towards Ryanair aircrew,I will certainly remember them. Many years from now when the financial crisis has passed and the industry is expanding and on the up, I will still remember the tough times. I will also remember those that paid their way into the profession and by their actions, made it that bit worse for the rest of us.
Having read with interest the recent comments posted, I am quite sure this is the case. These people seem to have no concept of how they are viewed or the morality of buying a place in the queue ahead of a more skilled candidate. Or at least if they do, they bury it deep down.
I’m appalled with the attitude and assessment of some of my peers in that they truly believe that Ryanair is the only option available to them. This is simply not the case, Ryanair was the easiest option available to them. Piloting is one of the most fiercely competitive industries I know of,and a first job is usually the fruit of years of labour rather than a purchased commodity. In a parallel universe, had these jobs been available through usual means, they would have gone most capable pilots by the well-trodden path of “starting at the bottom and working your way up” But sadly this is not the case any more,due in part to those who are happy to pay and Ryanairs appetite to accept them.
Whilst I would not purport open hostility towards Ryanair aircrew,I will certainly remember them. Many years from now when the financial crisis has passed and the industry is expanding and on the up, I will still remember the tough times. I will also remember those that paid their way into the profession and by their actions, made it that bit worse for the rest of us.
Last edited by goaround737; 11th Jun 2013 at 07:43.
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p.s
Pudoc, the mans right. You need to read what you post beforehand. Better still, get a parent or guardian to check it first.
Pudoc, the mans right. You need to read what you post beforehand. Better still, get a parent or guardian to check it first.
Last edited by goaround737; 11th Jun 2013 at 07:45.
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Tea Towel, you say
Leg, you say
Both of you are referring to Ryanair pilots, but I presume your hostility is also aimed at Easyjet TRSS cadets and possibly you are also upset about the people who worked in past years building hours working as flying instructors on a breadline wage, sometimes for nothing. Bush Pilots as well?
What about British Airways pilots who allowed APS to be replaced by NAPS and who now work until they are 65 instead of 55 as in previous years.
Thomas Cook pilots taking a paycut? Shouldn't they walk out?
We're all in this together.
No other profession would work alongside these idiots so why should we?
Tea Towel, just give up mate, the lunatics have taken over the asylum
What about British Airways pilots who allowed APS to be replaced by NAPS and who now work until they are 65 instead of 55 as in previous years.
Thomas Cook pilots taking a paycut? Shouldn't they walk out?
We're all in this together.
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So what would YOU do in their situation Goaround?
I mean I'm just wondering, what is the practical solution for individuals who want to be pilots? I see the options as:
- Ryanair/Easyjet - and run the risk of being "shunned" by some small minded cretin some years down the road.
- Instructing - extremely poor pay and leads nowhere.
- Flybe (if they even recruit anymore) - pay is so pitiful you are effectively paying more for your type rating than at Ryanair.
Aside from a few other lucky breaks that some people have managed to get, these are essentially the options if you want a job on graduation these days.
I'm not saying anything that has happened is right or wrong, but I do think there is a case for offering practical advice to people entering the industry. I don't think pillorying them for making tough choices and succeeding in a very difficult environment is helpful to anyone. You might want to take a look at the cadets coming into Ryanair before you dismiss them as hopeless pilots because they've had to pay for a rating. In the most part they are highly dedicated, focussed individuals who excel at what they do.
Ryanair guys really can't win can they? Do you remember the criticism of them for accepting a non-unionised position? Now that they are trying to get something done, they are a load of whingers that brought it on themselves.
I think you only have to look at this thread to see why the industry is f*cked and it's not because of Ryanair. It is because we, the pilots that is, are collectively stupid. So instead of bitching amongst ourselves (which is what the managers of these outfits want), why don't we all try to work together a little bit? The RPG is a positive step towards that.
I mean I'm just wondering, what is the practical solution for individuals who want to be pilots? I see the options as:
- Ryanair/Easyjet - and run the risk of being "shunned" by some small minded cretin some years down the road.
- Instructing - extremely poor pay and leads nowhere.
- Flybe (if they even recruit anymore) - pay is so pitiful you are effectively paying more for your type rating than at Ryanair.
Aside from a few other lucky breaks that some people have managed to get, these are essentially the options if you want a job on graduation these days.
I'm not saying anything that has happened is right or wrong, but I do think there is a case for offering practical advice to people entering the industry. I don't think pillorying them for making tough choices and succeeding in a very difficult environment is helpful to anyone. You might want to take a look at the cadets coming into Ryanair before you dismiss them as hopeless pilots because they've had to pay for a rating. In the most part they are highly dedicated, focussed individuals who excel at what they do.
Ryanair guys really can't win can they? Do you remember the criticism of them for accepting a non-unionised position? Now that they are trying to get something done, they are a load of whingers that brought it on themselves.
I think you only have to look at this thread to see why the industry is f*cked and it's not because of Ryanair. It is because we, the pilots that is, are collectively stupid. So instead of bitching amongst ourselves (which is what the managers of these outfits want), why don't we all try to work together a little bit? The RPG is a positive step towards that.
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Top9 or whatever your silly name is, you prove my point regards lunatics.
Depone... depone! I have been around a long time, since before a pilot paid for anything except their licence. You ask what can these youngsters do, well no one is forcing them to be a Pilot you know! I fly with bright youngsters every day, nearly every one of them has curt words for the type of person who pays their way into a job. These f/o's however are outnumbered by those that think they have a right to be a pilot, do you get it now? Not all youngsters are the same, but no one has a right to be a pilot, if you pay your way in (whichever airline), then you will reap what you sow, simple as that.
Depone... depone! I have been around a long time, since before a pilot paid for anything except their licence. You ask what can these youngsters do, well no one is forcing them to be a Pilot you know! I fly with bright youngsters every day, nearly every one of them has curt words for the type of person who pays their way into a job. These f/o's however are outnumbered by those that think they have a right to be a pilot, do you get it now? Not all youngsters are the same, but no one has a right to be a pilot, if you pay your way in (whichever airline), then you will reap what you sow, simple as that.
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Leg
Well if you are seriously suggesting that FR and EZY are allowing lunatics to fly their aircraft I would suggest you air these concerns to the appropriate authority.
As to you being around since before pilots paid for anything, 737 ratings were being sold by British Midland Airways 25 years ago and 757 ratings were also being offered at the same time for about £10 000 by British Airways, I know people who paid for ratings a long time ago and I elect to use my professional discretion not to shun them.
When it comes to "silly names" you don't seem to have a Leg to stand on.
boom boom!
Top9 or whatever your silly name is, you prove my point regards lunatics.
As to you being around since before pilots paid for anything, 737 ratings were being sold by British Midland Airways 25 years ago and 757 ratings were also being offered at the same time for about £10 000 by British Airways, I know people who paid for ratings a long time ago and I elect to use my professional discretion not to shun them.
When it comes to "silly names" you don't seem to have a Leg to stand on.
boom boom!
Last edited by top9un; 11th Jun 2013 at 11:39.
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My god your right leg. The lunatics really have taken over the asylum.
The general consensus is that every pilot has to get a job even if it means paying for it.
Its as if people think the aviation industry exists to provide work for pilots. The aviation industry exists to provide a service for passengers and other customers.
A simplified view would be to kick out each SSTR and ex-SSTR and stop hiring them in the future.
Airlines would go bust and many innocent people would lose their job but the industry would contract to a point where it starts expanding again on pax/customer demand alone.
As it stands it propped up and experiencing accelerated growth by people treating it as an amusement park ride.
I have no problem with people bush flying as their providing a necessary service in generally poorer regions of the world. My hats off to them. People building hours as instructors I have a problem with, it just adds to the circlejerk of flight schools training instructors to train pilots to be instructors.....creating jobs out of thin air....bubbles burst.
Yes Management are to blame but so are to sc.ab workers. We need to unite against them. Or would ye prefer if I said ye? As I'm 23 and have no right to say anything.
Edit: I also love how they're trying to muster up support by spinning the safety aspects of the current conditions, but then come back at the rest of us saying its one of the safest airline in the world! Which it is too.
Ye aren't digging your own graves with shovels anymore lads, you are using those massive bucket-wheel coal excavators from Germany.
The general consensus is that every pilot has to get a job even if it means paying for it.
Its as if people think the aviation industry exists to provide work for pilots. The aviation industry exists to provide a service for passengers and other customers.
A simplified view would be to kick out each SSTR and ex-SSTR and stop hiring them in the future.
Airlines would go bust and many innocent people would lose their job but the industry would contract to a point where it starts expanding again on pax/customer demand alone.
As it stands it propped up and experiencing accelerated growth by people treating it as an amusement park ride.
possibly you are also upset about the people who worked in past years building hours working as flying instructors on a breadline wage, sometimes for nothing. Bush Pilots as well?
Yes Management are to blame but so are to sc.ab workers. We need to unite against them. Or would ye prefer if I said ye? As I'm 23 and have no right to say anything.
Edit: I also love how they're trying to muster up support by spinning the safety aspects of the current conditions, but then come back at the rest of us saying its one of the safest airline in the world! Which it is too.
Ye aren't digging your own graves with shovels anymore lads, you are using those massive bucket-wheel coal excavators from Germany.
Last edited by TeaTowel; 11th Jun 2013 at 12:20.
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Thanks for the honest contribution, I know that flying instructors who just did it to build hours to qualify for a CPL in years past caused great resentment both with their colleagues who were in it for the long term and also with their students, some of whom were literally "taken for a ride".
It would appear that the same logic now applies within the airline world where self sponsoring of training allows the airlines to employ an oversupply of pilots and the normal laws of supply and demand ensure that Terms and Conditions decline at the expense of all pilots.
25 years ago, it was harder to borrow the daft sums of money that cadets are now equipping themselves with and therefore the supply of self sponsored cadets was much lower than today and the airlines had to take up the slack by sponsoring and type rating suitable applicants, but even in those days people were willing to take the risk and self sponsor their own training even if a job was not guaranteed. These were the ones who provided proof of concept to the beancounters and paved the way for the mass marketing of the right hand seat that we see today.
It has been going on a lot longer than most people realize.
It would appear that the same logic now applies within the airline world where self sponsoring of training allows the airlines to employ an oversupply of pilots and the normal laws of supply and demand ensure that Terms and Conditions decline at the expense of all pilots.
25 years ago, it was harder to borrow the daft sums of money that cadets are now equipping themselves with and therefore the supply of self sponsored cadets was much lower than today and the airlines had to take up the slack by sponsoring and type rating suitable applicants, but even in those days people were willing to take the risk and self sponsor their own training even if a job was not guaranteed. These were the ones who provided proof of concept to the beancounters and paved the way for the mass marketing of the right hand seat that we see today.
It has been going on a lot longer than most people realize.
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Teatowel - I really can't figure out your position here. You're not even IN the industry from what you say. How have you possibly had time or chance to become so jaded?
If you're so happy making a point by not getting an interview with Ryanair, great, good luck. But it isn't going to change anything. This has all been coming for donkeys years. Even the best schemes like BA's used to require you to pay them back for your training in some way or form. What's happening today isn't that different. It's just a question of risk and who is taking it. Nobody ever moaned about that though because unions exist to serve senior guys and the senior guys were happy with their lot. Now that they chickens are coming home to roost, after the people who could have acted failed to, the blame guns are out for everybody but themselves.
Accept that we are collectively responsible and move on...
If you're so happy making a point by not getting an interview with Ryanair, great, good luck. But it isn't going to change anything. This has all been coming for donkeys years. Even the best schemes like BA's used to require you to pay them back for your training in some way or form. What's happening today isn't that different. It's just a question of risk and who is taking it. Nobody ever moaned about that though because unions exist to serve senior guys and the senior guys were happy with their lot. Now that they chickens are coming home to roost, after the people who could have acted failed to, the blame guns are out for everybody but themselves.
Accept that we are collectively responsible and move on...
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BA are in deep and long-term financial woes caused directly by their laudable terms and conditions
They joined from 'nicer' airlines that went bust because they couldn't afford to pay maintain terms and conditions for their staff and still make a profit
Depone, in most airlines, even legacy carriers, the cost of flight crew is only a few percentage points of total costs. Some of the most successful airlines also have some of the highest paid pilots. You have fallen for your CEO's line of BS!
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Yes, the black hole in BA's pension fund is well known. And it is going to get worse before the recent changes start to have even a slight effect.
No, I don't believe anyone's rhetoric regarding costs. But the facts as to % spent by the locos vs legacy on staff costs are readily available. I did not say staff are the biggest cost for airlines but given the scale of FR's operation, it is not rocket science to link €400m profit with extremely low staff costs.
The way you people are talking verges on elitism. As though piloting is just for you and Nigel. I don't advocate in favour of SSTR and other cost-cutting measures but they are here to stay.
To suggest that all Ryanair pilots are held out as pariahs is nonsense and reveals your complete ignorance of the makeup of its workforce. You can pat yourselves on the back and laugh at others but this simply reflects badly on you, not me.
No, I don't believe anyone's rhetoric regarding costs. But the facts as to % spent by the locos vs legacy on staff costs are readily available. I did not say staff are the biggest cost for airlines but given the scale of FR's operation, it is not rocket science to link €400m profit with extremely low staff costs.
The way you people are talking verges on elitism. As though piloting is just for you and Nigel. I don't advocate in favour of SSTR and other cost-cutting measures but they are here to stay.
To suggest that all Ryanair pilots are held out as pariahs is nonsense and reveals your complete ignorance of the makeup of its workforce. You can pat yourselves on the back and laugh at others but this simply reflects badly on you, not me.
Last edited by Depone; 11th Jun 2013 at 16:39.
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My, My, haven’t we all been busy today.
You know, I could probably accept the lacklustre “it was the only thing going” excuse that Depone and Al Murdoch give, had it been accompanied by a “and yes I know that we’re
over the industry by doing it, but I’ve never met you so I’m not that bothered”I could live with that. But it never is!
These people are doing mental backflips to avoid the admission that buying their way onto the flight deck contributes to the degradation of piloting!
Al Murdoch – you see the options as being “Ryanair/Easyjet,instructing or Flybe” What planet are you on?!? There are 190 countries in the world and a couple of hundred thousand companies that employ pilots. I’ve got to hand it to you, your job hunt must have taken all of an afternoon! And you still fail to grasp that Instructing isn’t the route it once was precisely because of the actions of Ryanair and the likes!! Why hire an instructor with 1500hours when you can have a 200 hour chap who will foot the bill himself! I could scream, I really could!!
And to suggest that you and I share some sort of “collective responsibility” for the way things are, is maddening. I’ve had no part in this! Believe it or not I’m comfortable enough that I could have thrown money at it and bought my way into a job, but I didnt!I did the hard yards for 2 years before it paid off!
And another thing, if it means being labelled a “Small Minded Cretin” for taking a stand against you and saying that I find your way into this profession distasteful, and further, that I won’t reward you for it later on down the line – then so be it! Im happy to be labelled as such!
Small Minded Cretin (And Proud)
You know, I could probably accept the lacklustre “it was the only thing going” excuse that Depone and Al Murdoch give, had it been accompanied by a “and yes I know that we’re
over the industry by doing it, but I’ve never met you so I’m not that bothered”I could live with that. But it never is!These people are doing mental backflips to avoid the admission that buying their way onto the flight deck contributes to the degradation of piloting!
Al Murdoch – you see the options as being “Ryanair/Easyjet,instructing or Flybe” What planet are you on?!? There are 190 countries in the world and a couple of hundred thousand companies that employ pilots. I’ve got to hand it to you, your job hunt must have taken all of an afternoon! And you still fail to grasp that Instructing isn’t the route it once was precisely because of the actions of Ryanair and the likes!! Why hire an instructor with 1500hours when you can have a 200 hour chap who will foot the bill himself! I could scream, I really could!!
And to suggest that you and I share some sort of “collective responsibility” for the way things are, is maddening. I’ve had no part in this! Believe it or not I’m comfortable enough that I could have thrown money at it and bought my way into a job, but I didnt!I did the hard yards for 2 years before it paid off!
And another thing, if it means being labelled a “Small Minded Cretin” for taking a stand against you and saying that I find your way into this profession distasteful, and further, that I won’t reward you for it later on down the line – then so be it! Im happy to be labelled as such!
Small Minded Cretin (And Proud)
Last edited by goaround737; 11th Jun 2013 at 18:40.
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Easy, now Ladies.
Remembering the title of the thread, I can't imagine how the RPG getting themselves organised would fail to make the industry as a whole a bit better.
If we can't agree on that then I do worry.
MOL must be laughing every time one of his trolls read this.
Remembering the title of the thread, I can't imagine how the RPG getting themselves organised would fail to make the industry as a whole a bit better.
If we can't agree on that then I do worry.
MOL must be laughing every time one of his trolls read this.