This is your teenage pilot speaking: 19-year-old is offered job at Ryanair

[Bearcat F8F]

As for being jealous. Jealous of a guy working for Ryanair? Now that's funny!

Yes flying a 737-800 every day must be tormenting! Especially when some of us are working for many years doing some hard manual labour whilst doing a degree to afford the fATPL which we so desire one day.

I mean from all the airlines obviously Ryanair will be the last on the list, but flying for Ryanair vs not flying at all - hmmm, I think it's a no brainer

[TeaTowel]

Lets not forget, people in his assessment probably did better than him in both interview and sim assessment, were subsequently offered the job and had to turn it down due to their bank accounts not being up to the required standard.

The position is then offered time and time again down the line until they find someone(who also passed assessments but weren't the best) to pay.

In a continent with millions of youth unemployment, people dropping out of education and training due to costs right, left and centre, and those lucky to have work maybe getting 8-16 hours a week stacking shelves to cover rent, we don't need 19 year olds paying for jobs.

People justify it by saying "its training!" yet when you ask them if they will pay 50000 for subsequent type ratings on their next type in the ME or wherever, they seem appalled by the idea.

[contacttower118.2]

Lets not forget, people in his assessment probably did better than him in both interview and sim assessment, were subsequently offered the job and had to turn it down due to their bank accounts not being up to the required standard.

Everyone knows that Ryanair makes you pay for the type rating so I doubt people who couldn't afford it or were unable to take out a loan would bother going through the process only to turn it down at the end.

Anyway for all you know he could be an excellent pilot. Some people are lucky enough to be born with both money and talent.

Edit to add: Just noticed I crossed with 15206's post. Quite agree.

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

Too many 'Mr. I know it all' on here...

[TeaTowel]

If he did take out a loan, it was more than likely secured against his parents house. It doesn't exactly display much maturity or decision making skills. If he loses his medical or job in the next few years, he not only has his own life ruined but others as well.

Risk Taking has no place in aviation.

[TeaTowel]

Everyone knows that Ryanair makes you pay for the type rating so I doubt people who couldn't afford it or were unable to take out a loan would bother going through the process only to turn it down at the end.

So only the rich should apply in the first place? Worse again. I know multiple instructors teaching these rich kids to fly who themselves passed assessments but did not have the funding and so suddenly found themselves ineligible. As a pay-as-I-went student I always got the lowdown and inside knowledge of what the instructors really think

How can you tell which students in flight school are going to get employment? Talent? Personality? No, walk into the carpark and see how expensive their car is.

[contacttower118.2]

If he did take out a loan, it was more than likely secured against his parents house. It doesn't exactly display much maturity or decision making skills. If he loses his medical or job in the next few years, he not only has his own life ruined but others as well.

Well for loss of medical/licence can be insured against. Losing job a possibility obviously but unlikely at Ryanair I think...

Loads of people take out loans for flight training. Yes it is a risk but eventually, for most people (not all I grant you), that risk pays off. Calculated risk taking very much has a place in aviation, it is an integral part of it!

[contacttower118.2]

So only the rich should apply in the first place? Worse again. I know multiple instructors teaching these rich kids to fly who themselves passed assessments but did not have the funding and so suddenly found themselves ineligible. As a pay-as-I-went student I always got the lowdown and inside knowledge of what the instructors really think

I never said I agreed with it! I was just commenting on your assertion that people would turn up to Ryanair, do their assessment and then turn it down because they couldn't afford it!

I don't like the financing aspects of flight training any more than you do! It is of course grossly unfair that unless one has property or one's parents do in the UK it is essentially impossible to finance integrated training. But no one ever said life was fair!

Opining on PPRuNe about the injustices of the world is just not worth the effort.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Originally Posted by contacttower118.2

Well for loss of medical/licence can be insured against. Losing job a possibility obviously but unlikely at Ryanair I think...

Be prepared for disappointment if you're planning your life on the benevolence of an insurance company.

[TeaTowel]

Opining on PPRuNe about the injustices of the world is just not worth the effort.

It is if even one wannabe realises the risks and doesn't ruin themselves or their family.

If you want it, get a part-time job(easier said than done these days unfortunately) and pay your way so you don't have debt collectors shooting you in the kneecaps.

To the wannabes: there is no pilot shortage. That is what's called marketing Most people don't get work out of flightschool.

[contacttower118.2]

Well have no fear I am not!

Losing medical or licence, for whatever reason, is one of increased risks of professional flying versus other forms of employment. Everyone who embarks on professional flying would, or should at least know that. Insurance goes some way towards mitigating that risk, but by no means all.

[contacttower118.2]

It is if even one wannabe realises the risks and doesn't ruin themselves or their family.

Ah yes that I agree with, but that is a slightly different point though isn't it?

To the wannabes: there is no pilot shortage. That is what's called marketing Most people don't get work out of flightschool.

Unless you pay £100k to go OAA/CTC in which there is a reasonable probability of getting a job afterwards, not guaranteed of course but a much higher probability than going modular at a random shed at the local airfield. So which is really the bigger risk? I think the original subject of this thread sort of illustrates that.

And I say that as someone who has, so far at least, done all my training at the local airfield shed....

In the end TeaTowel we come back to the point that is so often debated on here...high debt integrated vs. pay as you go modular. As previously discussed not everyone is lucky enough for the former to be an option but when comparing both two things always stand out for me...

High debt integrated is a BIG risk unless one is on a mentored scheme but with OAA or CTC there is a pretty good chance of employment at the end since they have good airline contacts.

Pay as you go modular is less of a financial risk and suits those who are working but it is increasingly difficult to get a job afterwards because the major European airlines have basically decided that they prefer the integrated product and are in bed with OAA/CTC. If one then goes instructor after modular the likelihood is you won't have as much debt but you also will be earning a lot less than those who went integrated and got a job afterwards.

That's my take on it anyway. I have basically decided that I'll try a few more airline schemes (failed easyJet and just received the Aer Lingus online assessment details) and then it is on with the local shed for me...

[206Fan]

Only after reading most of the comments under the article on the Daily-mail Website. Never read so many stupid and bitter comments in all my life.

The fella obviously has the money and skill-set to get through the training and do the job. All the best to him!

[Bealzebub]

If he did take out a loan, it was more than likely secured against his parents house. It doesn't exactly display much maturity or decision making skills. If he loses his medical or job in the next few years, he not only has his own life ruined but others as well.

Risk Taking has no place in aviation.

No, that isn't correct. Children cannot secure anything against their parents house, unless they were in the unusual position of being a co-owner. Only the parents can make that decision. Most parents have evolved "maturity and decision making skills" so they would be the ones to decide their own comfort with the level of risk. I am afraid that life is a risk, and there are contingencies that can be insured against, such as "loss of licence" etc.

Despite your assertion, "risk taking" is as fundamental to aviation as it is to any other walk of life. It is about managing, minimizing, and understanding that risk.

[BAe 146-100]

Now he has a 130K worth of loan repayments to service for the next 20 years+ on a bit part contract, good luck to him.

[Bealzebub]

Now he has a 130K loan to service for the next 20 years+ on a bit part contract, good luck to him.

He's 19. Whatever his loan is, he might well have repaid it before some of his school friends have graduated. What will his life be like at 25? 4000 hours on jets? Possibly a command? Potentially a 40 year career ahead of him even at that point.

This is what he wanted, and this is what he got. Well done to the lad!

[TeaTowel]

Can I have examples of these calculated risks?

Getting you're parents to take out a massive loan secured against their property without a guarantee of a job is akin to descending past minimums while not visual.

Sometimes it works, sometimes you end up upside down on fire with 6 killed.

And as we have seen in the past even tagged schemes have risks. I won't even get started on the MPL.

This article and thread has unfortunately become an advert for paying. Someone somewhere reading this has realised their money will give them advantage and they'll will sign up for flight school tomorrow. Previously like every other "profession" they assumed they would have to compete on merit alone and wouldn't have bothered.

Of course we all know what HR look for in a pilot: Money.

[Bealzebub]

Can I have examples of these calculated risks?

There are just so many, it would fill pages and pages. Every de-rated take-off reduces the margin of safety, by turning excess runway length into something close to balanced field length. Similarly intersection take-off's forfeit available runway length for expediency and economy. Carrying minimum legal fuel, reduces margins of time and available options when a problem develops at destination. Selecting flap, power settings, runway for departure, headings after take off, with bad weather near an airport. etc. etc. etc.

There are no end of risk calculations made every day by every pilot around the world, where margins of safety are compromised for economy and therefore a managed level of risk is calculated and assumed.

Sometimes it works, sometimes you end up upside down on fire with 6 killed.

No. Managing risk is about ensuring it always works (one way or another) and that such disasters don't happen.

Getting you're parents to take out a massive loan secured against their property without a guarantee of a job is akin to descending past minimums while not visual.

Again, no it isn't. One is unlawful, and the other isn't. However staying with your analogy, the parents have the control and authority for the debt, and will make whatever decisions they think are best whatever their offspring may actually think. They are the ones who say "go around" and will initiate that action if they decide it is necessary. There is never a guarantee of a job. Such things cannot exist due to the many variables encountered along the way.

This article and thread has unfortunately become an advert for paying. Someone somewhere reading this has realised their money will give them advantage and they'll will sign up for flight school tomorrow. Previously like every other "profession" they assumed they would have to compete on merit alone and wouldn't have bothered.

Money almost always gives you an advantage. That is just another hard fact of life. Flight training is expensive, and many of the "tagged" programmes (to which you refer) are very expensive. "Merit" is just as applicable to successful graduates of these programmes. Airlines with these "tagged" programmes usually restrict their cadet training to a handful of schools (three really.) In fact, the one in question actually doesn't, although it is a significant customer apparently.

[contacttower118.2]

Can I have examples of these calculated risks?

Well taking off with 300m vis is "riskier" than when it is CAVOK, ETOPS with a twin is "riskier" than with having four engines, landing on a short and soaked runway is "riskier" than on a long dry one, putting a 70 tonne aluminium tube in a very inhospitable environment (40,000ft in the sky!) where by all accounts it shouldn't be if one really thinks about it carries a huge amount of risk but over the years aviation has learnt to deal with and mitigate it.

Perhaps not a great analogy I grant you but I would have thought it is obvious that everything we do in aviation has some risk involved, and at some point in our aviation careers a risk (a heavy crosswind, one more approach attempt when fuel is low or whatever) will have to be weighed against the promise of achieving an operational goal like landing at the intended destination. Occasionally, like that A320 at Hamburg that scraped a wing a few years ago pilots will come very close to miscalculating and a very small minority will pay the ultimate price for their miscalculation.

Getting you're parents to take out a massive loan secured against their property without a guarantee of a job is akin to descending past minimums while not visual.

Well with OAA/CTC one gets you a better job prospect than most other schools and the other likely gets you killed. Hardly comparable.

And as we have seen in the past even tagged schemes have risks. I won't even get started on the MPL.

Believe what you will. If you can get onto a tagged scheme that is far more security than paying for training at a modular flight school. I think you will find that the vast majority of MPL students completed their course and are now working for their respective airlines.

Of course we all know what HR look for in a pilot: Money.

Again believe that if it makes you feel better. That is no doubt true up to a point but one does need aptitude as well. I went to the easyJet MPL selection for OAA but failed because I got a rubbish mark in the COMPASS test, so rubbish in fact that had I just been going for OAA's regular integrated programme I probably would have failed as well. CTC run similar tests which need to be passed to get onto their Wings scheme.

As for professions competing on merit alone I have loads of friends who are training to be doctors, lawyers etc and guess what? They have all taken out loans to PAY for their training...

[MCDU2]

I give him 2-3 years before the penny drops that staying in his current job will give him a negative return on his investment. Then he will either join BA or pop the keys for his micra in the post to the bank and declare bankruptcy as he flys off for the gulf.

Still either way its a young persons game these days. At just 22 he will have an ATPL with nearly 2000 hours all on a modern jet. If he heads to say BA he could see a short haul command by the time he is 30. If he wants long haul then maybe 35 and he could be in the LHS. Then 30 years earning captains money till retirement so long as his health holds up.