Non type rated easyjet recruitment?
In that case EdnaClouds why bother to waste your time and money in going for the interview. Are you really that angry? Surely you have better things going on in your life than to waste time and effort on a company you think so little of?
For those of you deriding the offer. That's it I'm afraid and the choice is yours. All I can say is that once in the rewards are good. There are many of us who have spent blood, sweat and tears for many years and we are now reaping those rewards. Why should the large profits go to aid so many of you, some with dubious attitudes, to jump on the bandwaggon?
I too regret the deteriorating T&C in the industry but in the end it all boils down to supply and demand.
Most of us inside have had to pay the price one way or another to get where we are now. Few have jumped straight into the right seat of a jet enjoying what we have now. So come along with an open mind look what's on offer, not only financially but see whether you think you'd enjoy fitting in as part of our team. I think, hope you'd be surprised.
For those who take the opportunity I look forward to flying with you and hopefully enjoying the day out. For those who don't I wish you all the best for your next step.
I too regret the deteriorating T&C in the industry but in the end it all boils down to supply and demand.
Most of us inside have had to pay the price one way or another to get where we are now. Few have jumped straight into the right seat of a jet enjoying what we have now. So come along with an open mind look what's on offer, not only financially but see whether you think you'd enjoy fitting in as part of our team. I think, hope you'd be surprised.
For those who take the opportunity I look forward to flying with you and hopefully enjoying the day out. For those who don't I wish you all the best for your next step.
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You would have to be desperate to accept the deal on offer. The initial outlay would take a long time to pay back with no certainty of a job at the end. Yes there are desperate pilots out there and EZY should have set out there store and told everyone what was on offer from the outset. At least then, they would be interviewing candidates who might stump up the money. The downside would be that desperation is not a good basis to recruit on.
I think that by saying "no" you have a good chance of getting a better deal. Your fellow candidates are probably at a stage in life when they cannot accept such a deal and the judgement questions asked on the computer testing probably means that most are not risk takers, willing to roll the dice. Some years ago Jet2 recruited and those that agreed to pay 25k for a TR did so and found themselves on a course with guys that refused to pay and had their rating paid for. How would that feel?
I think that by saying "no" you have a good chance of getting a better deal. Your fellow candidates are probably at a stage in life when they cannot accept such a deal and the judgement questions asked on the computer testing probably means that most are not risk takers, willing to roll the dice. Some years ago Jet2 recruited and those that agreed to pay 25k for a TR did so and found themselves on a course with guys that refused to pay and had their rating paid for. How would that feel?
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There are many of us who have spent blood, sweat and tears for many years and we are now reaping those rewards. Why should the large profits go to aid so many of you, some with dubious attitudes, to jump on the bandwaggon?
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Come on guys, let's be real, compared to what's going on in other professions the majority of employed pilots are still enjoying a pretty decent lifestyle with decent pay.
From what I know eJ is a great company to work for, if not the best, depending on what you are looking for, of course, i.e. short haul, no tours or overnights, brand new equipment, great safety culture, many career opportunities.
From what I also know is by passing on the cost of training entirely to the pilot they avoid taking on a rotten apple and having to pay for it. While I disagree with the approach of not sharing any financial responsibility for training a new colleague, I can understand the company's motivation. It's just business.
I however cannot help but seeing more and more signs of the market starting to move. Granted there are thousands of us out there looking to climb the latter, or secure that elusive first job, but I wouldn't be surprised if eJ, and others, will have to offer a better package come next summer to be able to attract enough people.
From what I know eJ is a great company to work for, if not the best, depending on what you are looking for, of course, i.e. short haul, no tours or overnights, brand new equipment, great safety culture, many career opportunities.
From what I also know is by passing on the cost of training entirely to the pilot they avoid taking on a rotten apple and having to pay for it. While I disagree with the approach of not sharing any financial responsibility for training a new colleague, I can understand the company's motivation. It's just business.
I however cannot help but seeing more and more signs of the market starting to move. Granted there are thousands of us out there looking to climb the latter, or secure that elusive first job, but I wouldn't be surprised if eJ, and others, will have to offer a better package come next summer to be able to attract enough people.
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Stiglet, I think that EJ are an alright company once you are in.
However having already paid for one type rating I'm not in the position to do the same again. Unfortunately many of us have to go along to see exactly what the deal is.
Waste of time for everyone? Yes. Waste of HR's money? Yes.
I'm in a position not to accept the deal should it be good enough. I guess it comes down to those who are more willing to pay the MCC or type costs.
However having already paid for one type rating I'm not in the position to do the same again. Unfortunately many of us have to go along to see exactly what the deal is.
Waste of time for everyone? Yes. Waste of HR's money? Yes.
I'm in a position not to accept the deal should it be good enough. I guess it comes down to those who are more willing to pay the MCC or type costs.
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It's people like you who are the reason for declining terms and conditions.
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SR71, your argumentation gets lost in the fog of your righteuosness. What supply and demand has to do with pioneers in invention and engineering is something only you know.
At the end of the day, if you say no, someone in the very long queue behind you will say yes. The line is just too long and solidarity is not present. Only a minority of the applicants are even using the site anyway. Before you conjure up allegations of me selling out, I am already LHS and never paid for a rating, but I don't control how the management manages. That's what they get paid for.
At the end of the day, if you say no, someone in the very long queue behind you will say yes. The line is just too long and solidarity is not present. Only a minority of the applicants are even using the site anyway. Before you conjure up allegations of me selling out, I am already LHS and never paid for a rating, but I don't control how the management manages. That's what they get paid for.
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For those thinking of holding out for a better deal at eJ you should be aware that your place will be quickly filled by someone as experienced and able as you who will accept the offer. In 2-3 years time they will have accumulated 1500+ hours in an ever growing and successful company and getting ever closer to a LHS. Where will you be? I doubt eJ will accept further applications from those who have previously been offered a place but turned it down.
This recruitment of experienced pilots came about by pressure from within the company, particularly from trainers, who wanted to see a more diverse range of new entrants. The company did not have to do this they could have continued recruiting all the FOs through CTC and Parc. This has been done in part to bridge some differences between the company and the pilots. For outsiders to dismiss this opportunity is a bit of a slap in the face for those of us trying to put alternative views to a management whose major concern is the figure at the bottom of a spreadsheet page. If this is a success then I would imagine there may be similar recruitment drives in future years but based on years of experience the T&Cs will not be any better. As previously stated the only chance of improvement is to turn the tap off at the flying schools and that is not happening soon.
There are many silent observers of this thread looking at these comments and perhaps being swayed by the moral argument of holding out for a better, fairer deal. Be warned there are plenty who will climb over you to get a start date with eJ regardless of what they may post here. So you silent applicants just be careful not to be unduly influenced by anyone on this thread, including me, but make your own decision based on where you want to be and how you can get there.
Good luck to all those in the happy situation of having to make their decision.
This recruitment of experienced pilots came about by pressure from within the company, particularly from trainers, who wanted to see a more diverse range of new entrants. The company did not have to do this they could have continued recruiting all the FOs through CTC and Parc. This has been done in part to bridge some differences between the company and the pilots. For outsiders to dismiss this opportunity is a bit of a slap in the face for those of us trying to put alternative views to a management whose major concern is the figure at the bottom of a spreadsheet page. If this is a success then I would imagine there may be similar recruitment drives in future years but based on years of experience the T&Cs will not be any better. As previously stated the only chance of improvement is to turn the tap off at the flying schools and that is not happening soon.
There are many silent observers of this thread looking at these comments and perhaps being swayed by the moral argument of holding out for a better, fairer deal. Be warned there are plenty who will climb over you to get a start date with eJ regardless of what they may post here. So you silent applicants just be careful not to be unduly influenced by anyone on this thread, including me, but make your own decision based on where you want to be and how you can get there.
Good luck to all those in the happy situation of having to make their decision.
Last edited by pitotheat; 20th Aug 2013 at 16:55.
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I am LHS at easyJet and can confidently say the places will be taken pretty quickly. Do I like the offer? No, absolutely not, but this as others have said is classic supply and demand. Whether people like it or not, easyJet is a pretty major player in Europe with good career prospects for those with time in the company. Some people will take the long term view and accept the deal as is.
Over the last 4-5 years I have flown with European pilots, albeit with Airbus ratings, who jumped at the chance of being back in Europe flying for a european airline as a contractor as long as it got them away from their sh$thole half way around the world.
The same will happen with this round of recruitment. The deal is on the table, it's the only deal at the moment. You either look at the long game with short term pain or you walk away and wait for better times. However time to command is increasing.....
You talk of solidarity but none of you are organised as a group so how can you have solidarity? "The fog of righteousness" - how apt.
One thing is for sure though, if no one accepts the deal on moral grounds management will just go to the flight schools and take another bunch of cadets. I am constantly amazed at how many people in their twenties are willing to saddle themselves with a £100k of debt to sit next to me
Over the last 4-5 years I have flown with European pilots, albeit with Airbus ratings, who jumped at the chance of being back in Europe flying for a european airline as a contractor as long as it got them away from their sh$thole half way around the world.
The same will happen with this round of recruitment. The deal is on the table, it's the only deal at the moment. You either look at the long game with short term pain or you walk away and wait for better times. However time to command is increasing.....
You talk of solidarity but none of you are organised as a group so how can you have solidarity? "The fog of righteousness" - how apt.
One thing is for sure though, if no one accepts the deal on moral grounds management will just go to the flight schools and take another bunch of cadets. I am constantly amazed at how many people in their twenties are willing to saddle themselves with a £100k of debt to sit next to me
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Who has some more info on how the Flexicrew contract works. Salary, flight hours etc.
Is it true that you can be relocated with 3 months notice? Are you required to setup a company?
The CTC contract is apperantly what is on offer for the ones that recently had their assessments.
Is there anybody that got offered a permanent contract from the start?
Thanks
Is it true that you can be relocated with 3 months notice? Are you required to setup a company?
The CTC contract is apperantly what is on offer for the ones that recently had their assessments.
Is there anybody that got offered a permanent contract from the start?
Thanks
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Have a friend who attended. 20k for a type rating and the possibility of an extra 3 and a bit for a "refresher" course. So possibly up to near 24k to then go on a CTC contract.
It is appalling. Absolutely appalling.
Please refer to Lord Spandex Mashers earlier post.
I couldn't agree more. For once...
It is appalling. Absolutely appalling.
Please refer to Lord Spandex Mashers earlier post.
I couldn't agree more. For once...
Last edited by antonov09; 20th Aug 2013 at 22:59.
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ReallyAnnoyed,
Yeah, my analogy was wasted on you.
Your mantra is "If its difficult, don't bother" is it?
Why don't you get a little fired up in that LHS of yours on behalf of your professional colleagues, about to get stiffed yet again? Did you find that sitting down across the table from your management with that type of attitude got you far in your negotiations?
Whatever anyone does, don't forget that EZY recently announced multi-billion pound orders for huge numbers of aircraft, are forecast to make huge profits this year, have a share price that has ballooned recently, and yet have conducted a cynical recruitment campaign involving calculated obfuscation of the T&C's on offer to take yet further advantage of those pilots who are near the bottom of the pile.
If the conditions were ever ripe for industrial bargaining to deliver a proper deal for new joiners in the RHS, now is that time.
What is EZY's excuse?
EZY would not blink twice at the cost of bulk purchased TR's for non-TR'ed FO's. It is a drop in the ocean, not even equivalent to the CEO's annual salary!
Righteousness?
Its a shame more pilots aren't more indignant on behalf of their professional colleagues.
FWIW, I'm LHS, not in any way affiliated with EZY, have sat across the table from Management and attempted to stop the rot, and am thoroughly disgusted with the EZY recruitment paradigm.
Yeah, my analogy was wasted on you.
Your mantra is "If its difficult, don't bother" is it?
Why don't you get a little fired up in that LHS of yours on behalf of your professional colleagues, about to get stiffed yet again? Did you find that sitting down across the table from your management with that type of attitude got you far in your negotiations?
Whatever anyone does, don't forget that EZY recently announced multi-billion pound orders for huge numbers of aircraft, are forecast to make huge profits this year, have a share price that has ballooned recently, and yet have conducted a cynical recruitment campaign involving calculated obfuscation of the T&C's on offer to take yet further advantage of those pilots who are near the bottom of the pile.
If the conditions were ever ripe for industrial bargaining to deliver a proper deal for new joiners in the RHS, now is that time.
What is EZY's excuse?
EZY would not blink twice at the cost of bulk purchased TR's for non-TR'ed FO's. It is a drop in the ocean, not even equivalent to the CEO's annual salary!
Righteousness?
Its a shame more pilots aren't more indignant on behalf of their professional colleagues.
FWIW, I'm LHS, not in any way affiliated with EZY, have sat across the table from Management and attempted to stop the rot, and am thoroughly disgusted with the EZY recruitment paradigm.
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SR71
Before I or my colleagues take any lectures from you I would like to remind you that firstly it is mainly Capts who are BALPA members because of the high level of flexi crew in the company. Secondly this same membership rejected last years pay and lifestyle offer partly because of the huge loss on FO loyalty bonus on promotion that would have cost them tens of thousands of pounds. Other changes to the proposed FO career path were very poor. To suggest Capts at easyJet are not aware of the plight of FOs is wrong. Thirdly as already stated this new entrant contract and recruitment of experienced pilots is a result of a lot of work by BALPA, trainers, senior Captains and others.
I suggest you continue to work with the management of your present company as that is clearly your strength and thus improve the prospects for yourself and your colleagues and therefore have no need to consider any other airline.
A question to you. We had sufficient experienced Airbus applicants to fill our requirements more than twice over. In your experience of negotiating, how would you deal across a table with a very savvy bunch of managers who wonder why do we need to deal with the risk (but not the cost) of non TR pilots when we can fill all the seats with someone we can almost be sure will exit line training as a competent FO? Why should easyJet even contemplate the higher risk strategy of recruiting a proportion as nonTR pilots? The answer is there is no business case but it is a sign of hard lobbying by Pilots and some re engagement from the company.
So there you have it. A perspective from outside the company and one from within.
Before I or my colleagues take any lectures from you I would like to remind you that firstly it is mainly Capts who are BALPA members because of the high level of flexi crew in the company. Secondly this same membership rejected last years pay and lifestyle offer partly because of the huge loss on FO loyalty bonus on promotion that would have cost them tens of thousands of pounds. Other changes to the proposed FO career path were very poor. To suggest Capts at easyJet are not aware of the plight of FOs is wrong. Thirdly as already stated this new entrant contract and recruitment of experienced pilots is a result of a lot of work by BALPA, trainers, senior Captains and others.
I suggest you continue to work with the management of your present company as that is clearly your strength and thus improve the prospects for yourself and your colleagues and therefore have no need to consider any other airline.
A question to you. We had sufficient experienced Airbus applicants to fill our requirements more than twice over. In your experience of negotiating, how would you deal across a table with a very savvy bunch of managers who wonder why do we need to deal with the risk (but not the cost) of non TR pilots when we can fill all the seats with someone we can almost be sure will exit line training as a competent FO? Why should easyJet even contemplate the higher risk strategy of recruiting a proportion as nonTR pilots? The answer is there is no business case but it is a sign of hard lobbying by Pilots and some re engagement from the company.
So there you have it. A perspective from outside the company and one from within.
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If a battle cannot be won, do not fight it.
Sun Tzu
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As pitotheat heat has said what would be your negotiating strategy in front of management?
Last edited by PPRuNeUser0204; 21st Aug 2013 at 06:20.
pitotheat is correct.
Our recruitment managers are concerned about getting a good deal, and getting a good "mix" of pilots.
The path for newbie cadet first officers is:
You can jump out of that path at any time (so long as you are SO or greater and have the experience and the ability) into command.
When it comes to the non-TR intake, the company can insert you at any position. We, internally, would argue that only mad fools would accept entry at the bottom, and we don't want mad fools. The company will argue that it is purely supply and demand - and with some UK TP airlines in potential trouble, even the good ones will see the wisdom of jumping early, and will pay the financial price in order to be first in the queue.
Of course, if you all said no then the entry point would increase. But the sad facts are that FOs will jump all over the back of the candidate in front and that the company has a valid point.
Our recruitment managers are concerned about getting a good deal, and getting a good "mix" of pilots.
The path for newbie cadet first officers is:
- Contractor (max 12 months)
- SO
- FO (75% seasonal, possibly, then 100%)
- SFO
You can jump out of that path at any time (so long as you are SO or greater and have the experience and the ability) into command.
When it comes to the non-TR intake, the company can insert you at any position. We, internally, would argue that only mad fools would accept entry at the bottom, and we don't want mad fools. The company will argue that it is purely supply and demand - and with some UK TP airlines in potential trouble, even the good ones will see the wisdom of jumping early, and will pay the financial price in order to be first in the queue.
Of course, if you all said no then the entry point would increase. But the sad facts are that FOs will jump all over the back of the candidate in front and that the company has a valid point.
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Pitotheat - you're absolutely right in what you say. However, I would imagine that the logic behind employing NR pilots is simply because they will accept poorer conditions and thefore cost less money.
I would imgaine that type rated pilots would enter on £45k plus sector pay of £8.2k = £53.2k. Most I would imagine will enter as SFO on around £56k plus sector pay = £64.2k. NR pilots are being offered to join on £38k with no sector pay, thats a potential saving of between £15.2k & £26.2k per pilot x say 100 pilots = £1.52M & £2.62M saving/ extra profit per YEAR for the first 2 years.
Once NR pilots have paid for their own rating (easy are charging way over the odds so they'll even be money to cover the costs of recruitment & induction) they will be in exactly the same position as the type rated guys but earning considerably less (I know they won't have the same experience but they will be as qualified).
My pal is now going through the process of deciding whether to accept a flexi contract. He is in bits. He cannot afford the repayments on a loan of £20k plus pay his mortgage plus feed his kids but he is desperate to take the job because of the prospects. Poor guy hasn't slept properly in a week.
If he were to take the job, you will have a guy sat in the RHS of an airbus stressing out everyday about how to make this months mortgage payment. That to me rings alarm bells
I would imgaine that type rated pilots would enter on £45k plus sector pay of £8.2k = £53.2k. Most I would imagine will enter as SFO on around £56k plus sector pay = £64.2k. NR pilots are being offered to join on £38k with no sector pay, thats a potential saving of between £15.2k & £26.2k per pilot x say 100 pilots = £1.52M & £2.62M saving/ extra profit per YEAR for the first 2 years.
Once NR pilots have paid for their own rating (easy are charging way over the odds so they'll even be money to cover the costs of recruitment & induction) they will be in exactly the same position as the type rated guys but earning considerably less (I know they won't have the same experience but they will be as qualified).
My pal is now going through the process of deciding whether to accept a flexi contract. He is in bits. He cannot afford the repayments on a loan of £20k plus pay his mortgage plus feed his kids but he is desperate to take the job because of the prospects. Poor guy hasn't slept properly in a week.
If he were to take the job, you will have a guy sat in the RHS of an airbus stressing out everyday about how to make this months mortgage payment. That to me rings alarm bells