Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Easyjet Recruitment

Old 7th Sep 2012, 11:10
  #201 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: €
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
@ Doug The Head

Well said!
They say it's bad but they don't mind...
axelFR is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2012, 12:50
  #202 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Manchester
Age: 46
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You're right meerkat,

I'm a DE ex Military Captain but with only 2000 hours I can't get a sniff anywhere, even as an FO, thanks to the young pilots who are willing to prostitute themselves to fly!
Guy of Gisborne is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2012, 16:27
  #203 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Manchester
Age: 46
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Where are all these cadets coming from? How do they get together £80,000+ in times when credit/loans are scarce and how stupid are they to take the risk for only a 6 month contract flying for money that doesn't cover their loan? As a DE pilot, if they don't dry up soon, I'm changing profession.
Guy of Gisborne is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2012, 16:56
  #204 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: U.K.
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
How do they get together £80,000+ in times when credit/loans are scarce and how stupid are they to take the risk for only a 6 month contract flying for money that doesn't cover their loan?
During my time - when commencing training - HSBC gave us unsecured loans for the full amounts including living expenses. The only risk was theirs. Whilst at CTC for my 'meet and greet' people were turning down monarch for easy, easy for monarch, laughing away CityJet and Flybe and even holding out for a specific type rating. So off my colleagues and I went with our training. Lehman Brothers couldn't see what was about to happen, ING couldn't see what was about to happen, America couldn't see what was about to happen. You get the idea don't you? So there we were, balls deep in debt, balls deep in flying training and we were bent over a barrel. That's how we referred to it, that's how CTC referred to it and that's how our friends, lawyers, mummies and daddies and everyone else referred to it.

'm a DE ex Military Captain but with only 2000 hours I can't get a sniff anywhere, even as an FO, thanks to the young pilots who are willing to prostitute themselves to fly!
Here's the first bit of bad news for you - get some hankies for it. No one else can or will be held responsible for your decisions. You chose to join the military - you chose your path, I chose mine and everyone else chose theirs. Given that none of us have a crystal ball - a minimum of 90% of the outcome is down to luck. Some people spend their careers on the crest of the wave and some get smashed into the reef on the first flurry. Here's the second bit of bad news for you - easyJet, Airlines, aeroplanes and passengers don't need your experience. You'd require alot of retraining, coaching, guiding - An A320 type rating, possibly multi crew training, training towards airline flying (flying to strict SOPs with in a tight FDM envelope), you may be a little over confident and need that retrained out of you (Contrary to popular belief many of us are described as having good attitudes and a healthy appetite for the job). You may quickly become a little ungrateful. In all of that take 'you' as impersonal. You aren't the 'plug in and play' opportunity you think you are. Here's the final bit of bad news for you - no one gives a about your problems in the civilian world. In the military there is plenty of team spirit, unity, clear direction, help and guidance towards the career and doffing of the cap. Out here, particularly in this industry, no one cares. Everyone is out for themselves. They all have their own families, own debts, own problems, own divorces, own hang ups and own motives. There is no rank or respect.

Please take what I've said with the greatest of respect. I respect your military training and I know that not just anyone can pass it. This is life - you only have one - live it.

Last edited by BlackandBrown; 7th Sep 2012 at 16:58.
BlackandBrown is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2012, 17:10
  #205 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Manchester
Age: 46
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I completely agree about there being a certain amount of luck involved with the choices you make. I also agree that, during my 5 years commercial flying, you can't trust the guy sitting next to you not to bury you to get where he's going.
However, you have made my point for me, companies don't give a sh1t about experience, if it's not in the type they operate. How many more accidents do we need to witness before military flying training is treated as a commodity? I'm not saying military pilots are better than civilians but I don't know one UK military pilot who wouldn't have dealt correctly with the Air France 447 crash for example.
Guy of Gisborne is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2012, 18:39
  #206 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bilbao
Age: 44
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Remove the english language from some of the UK pilots and you will find nothing more.

How many laguages are you able to handle my friend?
La Coneja is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2012, 18:56
  #207 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: U.K.
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'm not saying military pilots are better than civilians but I don't know one UK military pilot who wouldn't have dealt correctly with the Air France 447 crash for example.
With the greatest of respect again - and not wishing to take this thread off on a tangent - the Airbus is a special machine. It's Fly By Wire for a kick off. Have you flown FBW? That coupled with a very heavy aircraft, a very dark night, over the sea, tiredness magnifying the startle factor and more computers than PC world screaming at you that you're ed makes me think you couldn't possibly say that you'd all handle it. Only as a result of these poor peoples deaths and their mistakes have my colleagues and I had detailed training on it. Now, in hindsight, if it happened to me, I too am very confident I'd have handled it safely. AP off, ATHR off, 2.5 degrees pitch and 82.5% N1 at typical cruise weights. I'd be extremely gentle with the side stick too. I know because of these poor peoples mistakes. A chinook, a Lynx, A Tornado, A VC10 or an Herc don't perform, handle or react like a fly by wire Airbus. Many pilots who have flown all of the above have confirmed this for me. So don't be so sure!

Anyway. This industry - the industry I have tailored my life towards and one that I probably have the most experience in of all the industries I've been in has to be the most unfair, unreasonable, unmeritocratic pile of shit I've ever had the misfortune to experience. By the very nature of it's seniority driven promotion for a start. The job is a pleasure however. One really does just have to get lucky - and once lady fortuna has cleared the way keep your mouth shut - which is why it's nice to come on here and vent! If you were a military pilot you'll have seen the sign 'Winners never quit and quitters never win'. It has rung in my head from the moment I begun flight training.

Last edited by BlackandBrown; 7th Sep 2012 at 19:12.
BlackandBrown is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2012, 19:17
  #208 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 759
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
B @ B: last time I checked I think you will find that the Tornado is in fact FBW!

As indeed are many modern military types.
Meikleour is online now  
Old 7th Sep 2012, 19:23
  #209 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: U.K.
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well blow me down with a feather!

To be sure, what I was saying was that with Airbus training I don't think you'd necessarily perform better than anyone else when faced with the exact sane situation out of nowhere for the first time. I could be wrong. Individuals might but as a group who knows.

Last edited by BlackandBrown; 7th Sep 2012 at 19:27.
BlackandBrown is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2012, 19:57
  #210 (permalink)  
SD.
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In a house
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Let us all bow down to the side stick jockey, you shouldn't need training to be able to fly an aircraft straight and level. Good old stick and rudder skills


2000 hours military flying, single pilot, 250' off the deck at insane speeds, finding a target, then getting back to base........

or 2000 hours over the Bay of Biscay feet up, reading the paper.

Tough one this
SD. is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2012, 20:15
  #211 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: London
Age: 46
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by SD. View Post
2000 hours military flying, single pilot, 250' off the deck at insane speeds, finding a target, then getting back to base........
Some may argue that the last point actually is transferable to airline flying.
ChocksAwayUK is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2012, 21:19
  #212 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 354
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You beat me to it
ATIS is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2012, 21:22
  #213 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: U.K.
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
2000 hours over the Bay of Biscay feet up, reading the paper.
BlackandBrown is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2012, 22:11
  #214 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Over Mache Grande?
Posts: 563
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Flaps...

The Easy that parked two stands down from us today with it's slats / flaps still extended - is that just a c0ck up (I did it once so I know it happens - my after landing scan is so much better now!) or a sign of a Flexi Crew newbie or leaving & not caring?
dwshimoda is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2012, 22:13
  #215 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It could be because he read his Ops Manual B and realised that in high temperatures it is a good thing to do to avoid a certain Air Bleed warning.
Bishop of Hounslow is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2012, 22:17
  #216 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Over Mache Grande?
Posts: 563
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Bish...

Don't fly AB and haven't heard of that. What is it exactly? I don't regularly see them with flaps / slats deployed though, so it was definitely out of the ordinary. It was +26c by the way.
dwshimoda is offline  
Old 7th Sep 2012, 22:26
  #217 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: .
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Very possibly they were left down following a bird strike so that an engineer could carry out an inspection.

Last edited by one post only!; 8th Sep 2012 at 07:11.
one post only! is offline  
Old 8th Sep 2012, 00:18
  #218 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: home
Posts: 1,560
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
B&B,

FBW is irrelevant ( I'm guessing you have never flown a jet without FBW). Just fly pitch and power = performance.....it's not rocket science. Most if not all ex-mil would deal with this scenario....and no I am not ex-mil!
Right Way Up is offline  
Old 8th Sep 2012, 21:25
  #219 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 940
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Right Way Up - I am not sure I agree with your analysis about 'most, if not all ex-mil would deal with this scenario'. I am ex-mil and spent the early part of my career both with and around countless military pilots, many of whom are now dead through making critical errors in very demanding situations. If I have learnt nothing down the years, it is that if a mistake can be made then it will be made - sometimes known as 'Murphy's Law'. I think you also have to compare like with like - there were two First Officers in the cockpit of that A330, one of whom was very inexperienced. The peculiarities of the AF447 crash were that the clear limitations of the training these Airbus pilots had received was highlighted very dramatically - I dare to suggest that until that accident, a similar fate would have befallen many pilots around the world. I can assure you that many inexperienced military pilots have ended up as charred bits of flesh in an instant through handling failings of one kind or another. The universal problem is that the human propensity is to err. That will never change, but what can change is training and selection to ensure the right people are given the right training to cope with unexpected and life-threatenign situations. The trick is putting 'experienced' thinking into inexperienced pilots. IMHO, the training facilities for commercial pilots far exceed anything I ever saw in the military. As we always do, we try to train for the accident that has already been rather than the one that is still to come - it is difficult to do it any other way.

As this thread is about easyJet, let me use them as an example. I have been flying Airbuses for many years, both with easyJet and a previous operator. I have no recollection of ever doing stall training, not even on the type rating - it may have happened, but if it did I have absolutely no memory of it. Since the Air France accident, easyJet have done stall training for the last two recurrent sims on every single pilot in the company. Closing the door after the horse has bolted? Possibly, but a very good move and an excellent training exercise in my opinion. I am now very confident that if we experienced a similar situation to AF447, we would have an extremely high chance of a successful outcome. If I am honest I am not so sure that many Airbus operators could have said that before the crash, but we have all stepped up to the plate to sort the problem out.

Every crash I have ever seen has resulted in the countless 'I would never have done that' comments from the great and the good on forums such as this. I have never held that view, and have always believed I am capable of doing any act of stupidity, and therefore constantly try to mentally prepare myself for every eventuality. Therefore, when the day of the big race comes, I hope to have a reasonable chance of not coming last! This is not an issue of military v civilian - it is an issue of training. I absolutely concur that AoA being available would be very good, but I do not accept that flying AoA, like the fast jet community, is what works in the civil world - horses for courses and all that. What works is providing the best equipment (including a readout of AoA - which I do not believe exists on Boeings either, but someone may correct me on that) but more importantly the best training to ensure that you can get yourself out of a potentially disastrous situation.
Alexander de Meerkat is offline  
Old 8th Sep 2012, 21:45
  #220 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: home
Posts: 1,560
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ADM,

Those military accidents tend to be low level with one shot to get it wrong or right. In the AF scenario initially they may have got it wrong, but their experience likely would have sorted the problem. My personal viewpoint surrounding this crash is fairly complex and includes as a major factor fatigue. I am fairly sure they had companions with them and from personal experience of long haul and taking people away I think they were knackered. Do you really need extra training to recognise that a pitch angle of 14 degrees and descending at 10000 feet per minute is a stall.

Your point of being capable of a bad day is so true, however I am seeing and hearing more and more complacency on the line. You obviously are professional and cover all bases, unfortunately in the wider world that is not the case. When inexperienced f/os complain to me that Capts are not interested in hearing their briefing then I know there is a serious problem!

Last edited by Right Way Up; 8th Sep 2012 at 21:53.
Right Way Up is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.