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Work to rule is classed as industrial action....
There is no precise definition of industrial action in employment legislation. Put simply, it is either a strike, 'any concerted stoppage of work' (Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, section 246) or industrial action other than a strike.
This includes 'working to rule', refusing to do certain duties and not co-operating with the employer: in schools and colleges, this could mean refusing to provide cover, or refusing to attend out-of-hours meetings.
It could also include refusing to teach or supervise a particular pupil or student - this is, in practice, the most common issue leading to industrial action.
To be lawful, industrial action must:
be a dispute between workers and their employer relating to terms and conditions of employment, sharing out work, discipline, or union issues,
not involve 'secondary action' or action taken by the employees of an employer who is not involved in the dispute,
not involve unlawful picketing,
follow a secret ballot, for which there is a legally-required procedure and timescale.
This includes 'working to rule', refusing to do certain duties and not co-operating with the employer: in schools and colleges, this could mean refusing to provide cover, or refusing to attend out-of-hours meetings.
It could also include refusing to teach or supervise a particular pupil or student - this is, in practice, the most common issue leading to industrial action.
To be lawful, industrial action must:
be a dispute between workers and their employer relating to terms and conditions of employment, sharing out work, discipline, or union issues,
not involve 'secondary action' or action taken by the employees of an employer who is not involved in the dispute,
not involve unlawful picketing,
follow a secret ballot, for which there is a legally-required procedure and timescale.
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Odious
Phensocks,
You really are the epitome of someone who has to shout to be heard. Your desperation is palpably audible.
"Foolish? The only person looking foolish is yourself Narrow Runway." Is that the best you have to offer?
"Drivel. Flexi crew was always going to happen. Read the Roland Berger report. Why do you think Warwick Brady was brought in as procurement director?! What do you think he was brought into procure? From the outset they knew the cost savings. You're stating management didn't know the cost savings involved? Clearly you're naive, stupid or both?!" I don't consider myself naive, or foolish. I have not allowed the grass to grow under my feet in this career, whilst being systematically undermined by a management who are attacking my very existence. Unlike some others I can think of.
"I can think all have given concessions. BA closed the final salary scheme to new members. What do you think is going to happen when money purchase pilots out number final salary pilots?" Final Salary schemes are long dead to new joiners. That isn't just in airline world either. As to what happens when DC members outnumber DB members in BA? Who knows, but it won't be worse than the situation in easyJet.
Clearly, you and I will never agree.
But, you know what? I'm alright Jack. I saw the future a long time ago and left the airline business, that is why I work directly for the CEO of one of the largest corporations in the world in our field - a man who looks after all 65,000 staff (not just himself) and rewards us fairly and more.
Clearly I must have been naive, stupid or both to end up doing that. I just wish I could be lucky, just like you so obviously are, Phensocks.
You really are the epitome of someone who has to shout to be heard. Your desperation is palpably audible.
"Foolish? The only person looking foolish is yourself Narrow Runway." Is that the best you have to offer?
"Drivel. Flexi crew was always going to happen. Read the Roland Berger report. Why do you think Warwick Brady was brought in as procurement director?! What do you think he was brought into procure? From the outset they knew the cost savings. You're stating management didn't know the cost savings involved? Clearly you're naive, stupid or both?!" I don't consider myself naive, or foolish. I have not allowed the grass to grow under my feet in this career, whilst being systematically undermined by a management who are attacking my very existence. Unlike some others I can think of.
"I can think all have given concessions. BA closed the final salary scheme to new members. What do you think is going to happen when money purchase pilots out number final salary pilots?" Final Salary schemes are long dead to new joiners. That isn't just in airline world either. As to what happens when DC members outnumber DB members in BA? Who knows, but it won't be worse than the situation in easyJet.
Clearly, you and I will never agree.
But, you know what? I'm alright Jack. I saw the future a long time ago and left the airline business, that is why I work directly for the CEO of one of the largest corporations in the world in our field - a man who looks after all 65,000 staff (not just himself) and rewards us fairly and more.
Clearly I must have been naive, stupid or both to end up doing that. I just wish I could be lucky, just like you so obviously are, Phensocks.
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Work to rule is classed as industrial action
The last pilot strike in the UK I believe was in 1972. Thirty years ( or a generation ) ago BEA SFOs ( Supervisory First Officers ) were on strike citing their low status and high workload combined with issues of poor pay and working conditions.
Sounds similar to some of the issues affecting todays Flexicrew.
Last edited by Robert G Mugabe; 18th Sep 2012 at 11:03.
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Regarding BALPA's involvement, here is a snippet of an email I received from them yesterday:
"we need to continue to tackle the airlines that engage ‘flexicrew’, or whatever derivation emerges, on a disposable basis. We sought to do that in easyJet this summer but as you may know the deal got the thumbs down. **We are keen to return to the issue. *We are also looking at how we can stop the practice becoming established elsewhere and what we have done in Monarch and are currently balloting on in Thompsons are cases in point.
Fourthly we are working with Labour Research and our lawyers Speechlys to put together guidance and drawing on case studies. *I cannot commit to e mail all that we are doing in this project but when we have developed it further we will want to do a ‘sense check’ *with our members.
Finally we will, on the back of the above, be looking to widen the campaign and involve the media and other unions through the TUC to put pressure on Ministers and the Regulator to take a position and hopefully shame airlines to do the right thing."
"we need to continue to tackle the airlines that engage ‘flexicrew’, or whatever derivation emerges, on a disposable basis. We sought to do that in easyJet this summer but as you may know the deal got the thumbs down. **We are keen to return to the issue. *We are also looking at how we can stop the practice becoming established elsewhere and what we have done in Monarch and are currently balloting on in Thompsons are cases in point.
Fourthly we are working with Labour Research and our lawyers Speechlys to put together guidance and drawing on case studies. *I cannot commit to e mail all that we are doing in this project but when we have developed it further we will want to do a ‘sense check’ *with our members.
Finally we will, on the back of the above, be looking to widen the campaign and involve the media and other unions through the TUC to put pressure on Ministers and the Regulator to take a position and hopefully shame airlines to do the right thing."
Last edited by Guy of Gisborne; 19th Sep 2012 at 06:11.
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spicejet - with all due respect you do not know what is happening behind the scenes. Maybe you will end up being surprised - maybe I will end up being wrong. Watch this space.
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What I'm not sure about is why should EZY pay more than it currently is given (i) the supply of suitable cadets & DEP and (ii) safety still being OK.
I genuinely think that the T&Cs of 10+ years ago are consigned to history for many airlines. Someone may have analogies with the merchant navy..
I genuinely think that the T&Cs of 10+ years ago are consigned to history for many airlines. Someone may have analogies with the merchant navy..
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There is no doubt that supply and demand is a massive factor in what is happening here. The simple reality is that there is an infinite supply of talented young people who are desperate to be airline pilots. They can persuade their parents, who like any good parents want a bright future for their kids, to mortgage their houses and take £100k+ loans for their offspring to fulfil their ambitions. For every cadet that is accepted into the CTC/Parc schemes, there are 10 who are not and who would sell their grandmothers to be there. Given that scenario, why would any airline want to pay them £50k a year, when they will actually pay for the privilege of flying for them? The very people who are complaining about the terms and conditions are the same people who signed up to them in order to get ahead of more experienced non-rated pilots who were frankly infinitely better qualified in every respect to have those jobs. We therefore have the insane and very unpleasant sight of numerous well-qualified pilots unable to work for companies like easyJet. Simultaneously, countless low-houred pilots, who can hardly land the aircraft, get Airbus jobs in order to save their employers money.
Enter BALPA - that much-derided and little-praised organisation who are the only restraining force against voracious management manipulation and the worst excesses of human nature. They have to somehow fight for a deal that no company wants to give, or indeed has any real need to give. And yet countless people (the very same ones who bought their way into the industry) hate and deride BALPA for not getting them permanent contracts. Nonetheless, I do see the excesses of flexicrew misuse as being so vile and unpleasant that they must be fought. I also see that if we do not do so, then everyone will be in the same boat very shortly. I despise the avarice of employers who have taken such advantage of these ill-advised young people. So, despite a significant element of being self-induced, the iniquities of the flexicrew system and the grotesque inequalities it has created simply have to be fought for the greater good. BALPA are indeed about to engage with easyJet on this issue, and will probably come up with some deal that is not as good as the current offering, but one that provides long term security and a permanent contract for all pilot who have worked here more than 6 months. Frankly, given that the economic laws of supply and demand are so against them, any deal is a good one in the current climate. Despite that, I would fight tooth and nail to maintain the present Senior First Officer and Captain contracts - what I would be flexible on is the route to get there as long as a clear path career path is established from Second Officer to Training Captain, but without the ravines in the process that currently exist.
Finally, much is made of the loss of terms and conditions in the airline industry. That is indeed so, but the reality is that many people who once would never have darkened the door of a jet cockpit are now doing so at a very early stage in their careers. Supply will always outstrip demand at the bottom end and that unfortunately means constant pressure on terms and conditions. No one likes that, but these are the rules that pervade in the same way that the laws of gravity apply to us all. If the day comes that we cannot get enough First Officers to join us, and I do not envisage that day in my lifetime or beyond, then we will have to pay a lot more money and offer a lot more to keep them. Given that such a situation does not currently exist and is never likely to, this is the way it is - harsh, but a dose of reality nonetheless.
Enter BALPA - that much-derided and little-praised organisation who are the only restraining force against voracious management manipulation and the worst excesses of human nature. They have to somehow fight for a deal that no company wants to give, or indeed has any real need to give. And yet countless people (the very same ones who bought their way into the industry) hate and deride BALPA for not getting them permanent contracts. Nonetheless, I do see the excesses of flexicrew misuse as being so vile and unpleasant that they must be fought. I also see that if we do not do so, then everyone will be in the same boat very shortly. I despise the avarice of employers who have taken such advantage of these ill-advised young people. So, despite a significant element of being self-induced, the iniquities of the flexicrew system and the grotesque inequalities it has created simply have to be fought for the greater good. BALPA are indeed about to engage with easyJet on this issue, and will probably come up with some deal that is not as good as the current offering, but one that provides long term security and a permanent contract for all pilot who have worked here more than 6 months. Frankly, given that the economic laws of supply and demand are so against them, any deal is a good one in the current climate. Despite that, I would fight tooth and nail to maintain the present Senior First Officer and Captain contracts - what I would be flexible on is the route to get there as long as a clear path career path is established from Second Officer to Training Captain, but without the ravines in the process that currently exist.
Finally, much is made of the loss of terms and conditions in the airline industry. That is indeed so, but the reality is that many people who once would never have darkened the door of a jet cockpit are now doing so at a very early stage in their careers. Supply will always outstrip demand at the bottom end and that unfortunately means constant pressure on terms and conditions. No one likes that, but these are the rules that pervade in the same way that the laws of gravity apply to us all. If the day comes that we cannot get enough First Officers to join us, and I do not envisage that day in my lifetime or beyond, then we will have to pay a lot more money and offer a lot more to keep them. Given that such a situation does not currently exist and is never likely to, this is the way it is - harsh, but a dose of reality nonetheless.
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Anyone still expect BALPA to fight the fight? The way I remember it, a decade ago BALPA endorsed a new deal without putting it to the members. EZY FOs lost upto £14k gross per annum, through a combination of the cessation of annual bonuses, a heavy reduction in flight pay and salary deductions for crew meals (which were subsequently cut in half with no matched reduction in the deductions, which would be theft). We also lost two weeks leave per annum. Not a lot happened to the Captains, except for the leave and crew food, but all the BALPA reps were promoted to TRE, and a month later a memo went out announcing that all company TREs were getting a 25% rise. Nice. Don't ever expect anything good of BALPA - you're just throwing money away. The only way of ever concentrating the minds of managers is when large numbers vote with their feet or if the media start playing rough.
Yeah let's get rid of BALPA. I will then expect random roster, pay cuts and removal of crew food to take around a week to implement.
BALPA are far from perfect but are the only game in town. Get rid of them and we will be orange Ryanair by the end of the week.
BALPA are far from perfect but are the only game in town. Get rid of them and we will be orange Ryanair by the end of the week.
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It's soooo easy to criticise BALPA, but I'm not hearing that many suggestions as to what BALPA should do now.
The market forces are massively against any upgrade in T&Cs, and people are still queuing around the block desperate to be RHS EZY.
My concern would be on trying to preserve LHS T&Cs, as I genuinely think the horse has well truly bolted on the RHS.
The market forces are massively against any upgrade in T&Cs, and people are still queuing around the block desperate to be RHS EZY.
My concern would be on trying to preserve LHS T&Cs, as I genuinely think the horse has well truly bolted on the RHS.
Don't ever expect anything good of BALPA - you're just throwing money away. The only way of ever concentrating the minds of managers is when large numbers vote with their feet or if the media start playing rough.
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My concern would be on trying to preserve LHS T&Cs, as I genuinely think the horse has well truly bolted on the RHS.
Typical of so many airline pilots!
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High Viz, for someone who claims his interests are being bright you are acting like a complete numbnuts. If we go and let the LHS terms degrade now what is going to happen when the debt ridden guys approach command? OK you want a command, lets see. Lower basic, lower duty pay, less pension, permanent flexi and move base every six months to try to keep you out of the local authorities sight. What a career they will have. They may even pay their debt off by the time they retire.
You can have that if you want but I will fight for their ability to have a decent career and come out of it on top and the only way that will happen is if we protect what is there now and even try to improve the RHS terms whilst we are at it.
You can have that if you want but I will fight for their ability to have a decent career and come out of it on top and the only way that will happen is if we protect what is there now and even try to improve the RHS terms whilst we are at it.
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The horse has well and truly bolted. FULL STOP.
So you really think an FO on 20k on Monday with no benefits is going to jump to this magically protected LHS on Tuesday on 60k+ with full benefits? Because its only RHS Ts&Cs which have 'bolted'.
That is not how management work, that is not how a business works, that is not how the world works!
You think maybe Harry
Potter has waved a wand over your LHS shouting Capitāneus Praesidium, Expelliarmus.....
Jesus! Get a grip people. Seriously.
The FO on 20k will be offered the LHS for £30k, and he'll be delighted. DELIGHTED!
Management will HALF the LHS wage bill over the next 15 years. And they will double their bonuses, they will be DELIGHTED. Their wives will buy expensive shoes, and their wives will be DELIGHTED.
Profits will be up, Shareholders will be DELIGHTED.
Low fares for PAX, they will be DELIGHTED.
At some point in your delightful ignorance, you'll realize you are not all right - even if your name is Jack. The only 'jack' you will be getting is jack- on your P60.
The problem with the 'Im alright Jack' game, is that management are playing it too, and they are better at it than you are!
So you really think an FO on 20k on Monday with no benefits is going to jump to this magically protected LHS on Tuesday on 60k+ with full benefits? Because its only RHS Ts&Cs which have 'bolted'.
That is not how management work, that is not how a business works, that is not how the world works!
You think maybe Harry
Potter has waved a wand over your LHS shouting Capitāneus Praesidium, Expelliarmus.....Jesus! Get a grip people. Seriously.
The FO on 20k will be offered the LHS for £30k, and he'll be delighted. DELIGHTED!
Management will HALF the LHS wage bill over the next 15 years. And they will double their bonuses, they will be DELIGHTED. Their wives will buy expensive shoes, and their wives will be DELIGHTED.
Profits will be up, Shareholders will be DELIGHTED.
Low fares for PAX, they will be DELIGHTED.
At some point in your delightful ignorance, you'll realize you are not all right - even if your name is Jack. The only 'jack' you will be getting is jack-
on your P60.The problem with the 'Im alright Jack' game, is that management are playing it too, and they are better at it than you are!
Last edited by clunk1001; 21st Sep 2012 at 10:26.
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So, having opened the door to the room where the Elephant sits, the Trojan Horse galloped in and ran amok.
There is NOTHING that can be done to stop the deterioration of LHS pay and conditions in easyJet over the coming years.
The Horse and Elephant. You'd be better opening a pub of the same name - and that is also a business in terminal decline.
There is NOTHING that can be done to stop the deterioration of LHS pay and conditions in easyJet over the coming years.
The Horse and Elephant. You'd be better opening a pub of the same name - and that is also a business in terminal decline.
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Talking of "i'm alright jack" attitudes clunk, I see you posted before that you wouldn't want to take a €20,000 contract....but that you would. That makes you part of the problem!!!!
I suggest you "get a grip" as you so eloquently put it.
I suggest you "get a grip" as you so eloquently put it.
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Management will HALF the LHS wage bill over the next 15 years
Last edited by The African Dude; 21st Sep 2012 at 15:13.
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la-amistad, if you are sitting there hoping that fATPL pilots are all going to turn down the ONLY job offer they're likely to get and thereby magically fix the situation you need to speak to Harry Potter again.
Last year I did actually turn down a selection day because of Ts&Cs, how is the industry looking now as a result of my stand? Any better?
The other attitude which I find particularly naive is that fATPL applicant can do anything about this (other than simply not take any jobs).
The cause of this problem and the solution could be debated (and argued about) endlessly. What you can't argue with is that this WILL impact both seats.
Sorry for the slight thread drift folks....
Last year I did actually turn down a selection day because of Ts&Cs, how is the industry looking now as a result of my stand? Any better?
The other attitude which I find particularly naive is that fATPL applicant can do anything about this (other than simply not take any jobs).
The cause of this problem and the solution could be debated (and argued about) endlessly. What you can't argue with is that this WILL impact both seats.
Sorry for the slight thread drift folks....
Last edited by clunk1001; 22nd Sep 2012 at 10:30.