Easyjet Recruitment
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 938
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From: United Kingdom
RexBanner - I am one of those who utterly reject our current recruitment policy and see the lack of a 'broad church' approach as a real failing. There is no doubt that we are missing a trick in only recruiting cadets - we need a broader recruitment base including turboprops, instructors, military, helicopters and other non-Airbus rated jets. I came from a mixture of the first 3 and have unquestionably benefitted from exposure to the wider world. However, it would not be fair to characterise our operation as being 'ILS to ILS'. In the last year or so at easyJet I have done day and night VORs, NDBs, PRNAVs, visual and circling approaches. In addition we operate to what is widely recognised as some of the more challenging Cat C airports in Europe with narrow runways, high terrain etc. Arguably, our Gatwick operation offers the widest variety of flying and destinations of any airline around. Sure, we cannot offer Kathmandu, but we can provide just about everything else! By the time an easyJet FO gets a command he is a fairly polished individual who has a wide exposure to a substantial number of difficult destinations. Virtually all our new Captains come through Gatwick, thereby increasing their exposure to the hard end of the scale. We are far from perfect and I agree we should have more widely experienced pilots as a matter of policy, but we also have a lot right in terms of what we put our aspiring Captains through.
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
From: Manchester
You're right meerkat,
I'm a DE ex Military Captain but with only 2000 hours I can't get a sniff anywhere, even as an FO, thanks to the young pilots who are willing to prostitute themselves to fly!
I'm a DE ex Military Captain but with only 2000 hours I can't get a sniff anywhere, even as an FO, thanks to the young pilots who are willing to prostitute themselves to fly!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
From: Manchester
Where are all these cadets coming from? How do they get together £80,000+ in times when credit/loans are scarce and how stupid are they to take the risk for only a 6 month contract flying for money that doesn't cover their loan? As a DE pilot, if they don't dry up soon, I'm changing profession.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 529
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From: U.K.
How do they get together £80,000+ in times when credit/loans are scarce and how stupid are they to take the risk for only a 6 month contract flying for money that doesn't cover their loan?
Lehman Brothers couldn't see what was about to happen, ING couldn't see what was about to happen, America couldn't see what was about to happen. You get the idea don't you? So there we were, balls deep in debt, balls deep in flying training and we were bent over a barrel. That's how we referred to it, that's how CTC referred to it and that's how our friends, lawyers, mummies and daddies and everyone else referred to it.
'm a DE ex Military Captain but with only 2000 hours I can't get a sniff anywhere, even as an FO, thanks to the young pilots who are willing to prostitute themselves to fly!
about your problems in the civilian world. In the military there is plenty of team spirit, unity, clear direction, help and guidance towards the career and doffing of the cap. Out here, particularly in this industry, no one cares. Everyone is out for themselves. They all have their own families, own debts, own problems, own divorces, own hang ups and own motives. There is no rank or respect.Please take what I've said with the greatest of respect. I respect your military training and I know that not just anyone can pass it. This is life - you only have one - live it.
Last edited by BlackandBrown; 7th September 2012 at 15:58.
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 108
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From: Manchester
I completely agree about there being a certain amount of luck involved with the choices you make. I also agree that, during my 5 years commercial flying, you can't trust the guy sitting next to you not to bury you to get where he's going.
However, you have made my point for me, companies don't give a sh1t about experience, if it's not in the type they operate. How many more accidents do we need to witness before military flying training is treated as a commodity? I'm not saying military pilots are better than civilians but I don't know one UK military pilot who wouldn't have dealt correctly with the Air France 447 crash for example.
However, you have made my point for me, companies don't give a sh1t about experience, if it's not in the type they operate. How many more accidents do we need to witness before military flying training is treated as a commodity? I'm not saying military pilots are better than civilians but I don't know one UK military pilot who wouldn't have dealt correctly with the Air France 447 crash for example.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 529
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From: U.K.
I'm not saying military pilots are better than civilians but I don't know one UK military pilot who wouldn't have dealt correctly with the Air France 447 crash for example.
ed makes me think you couldn't possibly say that you'd all handle it. Only as a result of these poor peoples deaths and their mistakes have my colleagues and I had detailed training on it. Now, in hindsight, if it happened to me, I too am very confident I'd have handled it safely. AP off, ATHR off, 2.5 degrees pitch and 82.5% N1 at typical cruise weights. I'd be extremely gentle with the side stick too. I know because of these poor peoples mistakes. A chinook, a Lynx, A Tornado, A VC10 or an Herc don't perform, handle or react like a fly by wire Airbus. Many pilots who have flown all of the above have confirmed this for me. So don't be so sure!Anyway. This industry - the industry I have tailored my life towards and one that I probably have the most experience in of all the industries I've been in has to be the most unfair, unreasonable, unmeritocratic pile of !!!! I've ever had the misfortune to experience. By the very nature of it's seniority driven promotion for a start. The job is a pleasure however. One really does just have to get lucky - and once lady fortuna has cleared the way keep your mouth shut - which is why it's nice to come on here and vent! If you were a military pilot you'll have seen the sign 'Winners never quit and quitters never win'. It has rung in my head from the moment I begun flight training.
Last edited by BlackandBrown; 7th September 2012 at 18:12.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
From: U.K.
Well blow me down with a feather!
To be sure, what I was saying was that with Airbus training I don't think you'd necessarily perform better than anyone else when faced with the exact sane situation out of nowhere for the first time. I could be wrong. Individuals might but as a group who knows.
To be sure, what I was saying was that with Airbus training I don't think you'd necessarily perform better than anyone else when faced with the exact sane situation out of nowhere for the first time. I could be wrong. Individuals might but as a group who knows.
Last edited by BlackandBrown; 7th September 2012 at 18:27.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
From: In a house
Let us all bow down to the side stick jockey, you shouldn't need training to be able to fly an aircraft straight and level. Good old stick and rudder skills 
2000 hours military flying, single pilot, 250' off the deck at insane speeds, finding a target, then getting back to base........
or 2000 hours over the Bay of Biscay feet up, reading the paper.
Tough one this
2000 hours military flying, single pilot, 250' off the deck at insane speeds, finding a target, then getting back to base........
or 2000 hours over the Bay of Biscay feet up, reading the paper.
Tough one this
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
From: London
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 564
Likes: 0
From: Over Mache Grande?
Flaps...
The Easy that parked two stands down from us today with it's slats / flaps still extended - is that just a c0ck up (I did it once so I know it happens - my after landing scan is so much better now!) or a sign of a Flexi Crew newbie or leaving & not caring?
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 564
Likes: 0
From: Over Mache Grande?
Bish...
Don't fly AB and haven't heard of that. What is it exactly? I don't regularly see them with flaps / slats deployed though, so it was definitely out of the ordinary. It was +26c by the way.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,692
Likes: 153
From: home
B&B,
FBW is irrelevant ( I'm guessing you have never flown a jet without FBW). Just fly pitch and power = performance.....it's not rocket science. Most if not all ex-mil would deal with this scenario....and no I am not ex-mil!
FBW is irrelevant ( I'm guessing you have never flown a jet without FBW). Just fly pitch and power = performance.....it's not rocket science. Most if not all ex-mil would deal with this scenario....and no I am not ex-mil!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 938
Likes: 0
From: United Kingdom
Right Way Up - I am not sure I agree with your analysis about 'most, if not all ex-mil would deal with this scenario'. I am ex-mil and spent the early part of my career both with and around countless military pilots, many of whom are now dead through making critical errors in very demanding situations. If I have learnt nothing down the years, it is that if a mistake can be made then it will be made - sometimes known as 'Murphy's Law'. I think you also have to compare like with like - there were two First Officers in the cockpit of that A330, one of whom was very inexperienced. The peculiarities of the AF447 crash were that the clear limitations of the training these Airbus pilots had received was highlighted very dramatically - I dare to suggest that until that accident, a similar fate would have befallen many pilots around the world. I can assure you that many inexperienced military pilots have ended up as charred bits of flesh in an instant through handling failings of one kind or another. The universal problem is that the human propensity is to err. That will never change, but what can change is training and selection to ensure the right people are given the right training to cope with unexpected and life-threatenign situations. The trick is putting 'experienced' thinking into inexperienced pilots. IMHO, the training facilities for commercial pilots far exceed anything I ever saw in the military. As we always do, we try to train for the accident that has already been rather than the one that is still to come - it is difficult to do it any other way.
As this thread is about easyJet, let me use them as an example. I have been flying Airbuses for many years, both with easyJet and a previous operator. I have no recollection of ever doing stall training, not even on the type rating - it may have happened, but if it did I have absolutely no memory of it. Since the Air France accident, easyJet have done stall training for the last two recurrent sims on every single pilot in the company. Closing the door after the horse has bolted? Possibly, but a very good move and an excellent training exercise in my opinion. I am now very confident that if we experienced a similar situation to AF447, we would have an extremely high chance of a successful outcome. If I am honest I am not so sure that many Airbus operators could have said that before the crash, but we have all stepped up to the plate to sort the problem out.
Every crash I have ever seen has resulted in the countless 'I would never have done that' comments from the great and the good on forums such as this. I have never held that view, and have always believed I am capable of doing any act of stupidity, and therefore constantly try to mentally prepare myself for every eventuality. Therefore, when the day of the big race comes, I hope to have a reasonable chance of not coming last! This is not an issue of military v civilian - it is an issue of training. I absolutely concur that AoA being available would be very good, but I do not accept that flying AoA, like the fast jet community, is what works in the civil world - horses for courses and all that. What works is providing the best equipment (including a readout of AoA - which I do not believe exists on Boeings either, but someone may correct me on that) but more importantly the best training to ensure that you can get yourself out of a potentially disastrous situation.
As this thread is about easyJet, let me use them as an example. I have been flying Airbuses for many years, both with easyJet and a previous operator. I have no recollection of ever doing stall training, not even on the type rating - it may have happened, but if it did I have absolutely no memory of it. Since the Air France accident, easyJet have done stall training for the last two recurrent sims on every single pilot in the company. Closing the door after the horse has bolted? Possibly, but a very good move and an excellent training exercise in my opinion. I am now very confident that if we experienced a similar situation to AF447, we would have an extremely high chance of a successful outcome. If I am honest I am not so sure that many Airbus operators could have said that before the crash, but we have all stepped up to the plate to sort the problem out.
Every crash I have ever seen has resulted in the countless 'I would never have done that' comments from the great and the good on forums such as this. I have never held that view, and have always believed I am capable of doing any act of stupidity, and therefore constantly try to mentally prepare myself for every eventuality. Therefore, when the day of the big race comes, I hope to have a reasonable chance of not coming last! This is not an issue of military v civilian - it is an issue of training. I absolutely concur that AoA being available would be very good, but I do not accept that flying AoA, like the fast jet community, is what works in the civil world - horses for courses and all that. What works is providing the best equipment (including a readout of AoA - which I do not believe exists on Boeings either, but someone may correct me on that) but more importantly the best training to ensure that you can get yourself out of a potentially disastrous situation.