BALPA - UK facing shortage of pilots
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So you think I should have resigned my job so you didn't have to pay for yours? No thanks I earnt it.
Why should I do anything about it, it isn't me causing the problem is it?
Why would you pay for a job?!
Why should I do anything about it, it isn't me causing the problem is it?
Why would you pay for a job?!
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The problem for Guerrero and his cohort is that at their "age and experience" end of the spectrum, everything is about the 'oppotunity' of the future. For the greybeards amoungst us, we look back at the 'consequences' of our earlier oppotunites.
It is difficult to see the problem from each others point of view, but what is true is that the barrier to entry for becoming an airline pilot has never been higher.But, even now, there are oppotunities for the dedicated and flexible. It is easy to blame youth for taking the 'easy' route to the RH seat of a jet. If credit had been easy or daddy had made a wad on his house, I'd have probably tried to avoid the years in GA, certainly my pension might look healthier than it does now, who knows. But then I would have missed out on some remarkable adventures.
But taking the easy money oppotunity has had the unfortunate consequence of bu**ering up the well trodden route via GA,Taxi,TP to big jet and all are suffering because of it. Ex MIL and ancient BA cadetships are a red herring to the argument as they were always there as a minority and acted as the 'grammer school' of aviation since they were a nil outlay entry to the industry selected on ability.
I am pretty certain the PTF glut is coming to an end as credit/money tightens, airlines are becoming a bit more shy of employing cadets for various reasons and maybe one or two FTO's will go to the wall. My own company has even sponsored some cadets on a well financed scheme which see's them go thru the TP years as well as basic training, so there is hope for the future.
What I will be glad to be rid of, is the attitude of entitlement expressed by some (but not all, by any means) cadets. Its a byproduct of the times, but it is most unwelcome on the flight deck.
It is difficult to see the problem from each others point of view, but what is true is that the barrier to entry for becoming an airline pilot has never been higher.But, even now, there are oppotunities for the dedicated and flexible. It is easy to blame youth for taking the 'easy' route to the RH seat of a jet. If credit had been easy or daddy had made a wad on his house, I'd have probably tried to avoid the years in GA, certainly my pension might look healthier than it does now, who knows. But then I would have missed out on some remarkable adventures.
But taking the easy money oppotunity has had the unfortunate consequence of bu**ering up the well trodden route via GA,Taxi,TP to big jet and all are suffering because of it. Ex MIL and ancient BA cadetships are a red herring to the argument as they were always there as a minority and acted as the 'grammer school' of aviation since they were a nil outlay entry to the industry selected on ability.
I am pretty certain the PTF glut is coming to an end as credit/money tightens, airlines are becoming a bit more shy of employing cadets for various reasons and maybe one or two FTO's will go to the wall. My own company has even sponsored some cadets on a well financed scheme which see's them go thru the TP years as well as basic training, so there is hope for the future.
What I will be glad to be rid of, is the attitude of entitlement expressed by some (but not all, by any means) cadets. Its a byproduct of the times, but it is most unwelcome on the flight deck.
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I'm with Lord Spandex on this one.
The only reason these PTF schemes, and SSTR schemes are out there is for one reason, and one reason only - because people are dumb enough to pay it. Simple as that.
It's the same reason why they charge you £6 for a cup of tea in a service station, why? Because we're dumb enough to pay it.
It isn't the airline's fault, it's the individual's fault. What I want to know is where is all the money coming from for these people to spend £130,000 on full training? I don't get it.
You may ask "what are these people supposed to do then"? They come out of an integrated course with £100,000 worth of debt, they need to do something so it then spirals out of control. Well don't do the training if there are no jobs. The flight schools are full even when we are sliding into recession and beyond. It's completely bonkers.
The only reason these PTF schemes, and SSTR schemes are out there is for one reason, and one reason only - because people are dumb enough to pay it. Simple as that.
It's the same reason why they charge you £6 for a cup of tea in a service station, why? Because we're dumb enough to pay it.
It isn't the airline's fault, it's the individual's fault. What I want to know is where is all the money coming from for these people to spend £130,000 on full training? I don't get it.
You may ask "what are these people supposed to do then"? They come out of an integrated course with £100,000 worth of debt, they need to do something so it then spirals out of control. Well don't do the training if there are no jobs. The flight schools are full even when we are sliding into recession and beyond. It's completely bonkers.
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Sorry but you are wrong
There will always be individuals ready to pay or do anything to become an airline pilot. Specially if they are fooled by the FTOs and believe that there are jobs awaiting them when they get the licence. They are not to be blamed. Well, only in part, specially those who pay to work thus stealing someone else's job.
By the time they have spent some 80,000 euros, they realise that this is not true. The only way out: forward. Pay more and more to get more chances.
But it is never enough, because the saturarion of frozen ATPLs and CPLs is so extreme that the "price" of having a chance has become ridiculous: paying for flying with pax in the cabin.
For the airlines this is good, of course, but the real winners, the ones who put the money on their pockets are the FTOs and TRTOs.
I think the best solution to the "problem" of pilot shortage (experienced type rated pilots, I mean) and to the costs of training pilots that airlines incur is a compromise between self sponsor (frozen ATPL) and airline sponsor (TR).
If things are made according to:
1st Selection
2nd Training (self sponsored frozen ATPL or CPL, MCC...)
3rd Recruitment
4th further training (TR...)
Thus airlines would have good, talented, disciplined pilots (selection of the best) with a good training (at the best FTOs) for a reasonable cost (half self sponsored). They can have a good product for a reasonable price. They can also dictate the rate of pilot production by the FTOs. And the TR would be made already minded for a specific airline.
In addition, only the selected ones would spend the money. those left behind would save it!
Depending on the current situation, ATPL would be airline sponsored (with bonds) or self sponsored (no bonds.)
According tho the current:
1st Training (self sponsored frozen ATPL or CPL, MCC...)
2nd further training (TR...)
3rd FO "job renting" (line training with 500 hours or similar)
4th maybe proper recruitment and a proper job
what airlines have is pilots whose talent is basically unknown in most cases but clearly poorer in average as there hasn't been any previous selection. This product which quality no one knows is then put to fly in the airline at the airline's risk. Moneywise seems a good system, except if one day something happens.
In this system, 100 guys pay a fortune and then only 10 get the job (paying more than the others).
The FTOs are to be blamed.
Of course, they exist because of the JAA regulations, which suck.
These are to blame!
But how can you fight them????
There will always be individuals ready to pay or do anything to become an airline pilot. Specially if they are fooled by the FTOs and believe that there are jobs awaiting them when they get the licence. They are not to be blamed. Well, only in part, specially those who pay to work thus stealing someone else's job.
By the time they have spent some 80,000 euros, they realise that this is not true. The only way out: forward. Pay more and more to get more chances.
But it is never enough, because the saturarion of frozen ATPLs and CPLs is so extreme that the "price" of having a chance has become ridiculous: paying for flying with pax in the cabin.
For the airlines this is good, of course, but the real winners, the ones who put the money on their pockets are the FTOs and TRTOs.
I think the best solution to the "problem" of pilot shortage (experienced type rated pilots, I mean) and to the costs of training pilots that airlines incur is a compromise between self sponsor (frozen ATPL) and airline sponsor (TR).
If things are made according to:
1st Selection
2nd Training (self sponsored frozen ATPL or CPL, MCC...)
3rd Recruitment
4th further training (TR...)
Thus airlines would have good, talented, disciplined pilots (selection of the best) with a good training (at the best FTOs) for a reasonable cost (half self sponsored). They can have a good product for a reasonable price. They can also dictate the rate of pilot production by the FTOs. And the TR would be made already minded for a specific airline.
In addition, only the selected ones would spend the money. those left behind would save it!
Depending on the current situation, ATPL would be airline sponsored (with bonds) or self sponsored (no bonds.)
According tho the current:
1st Training (self sponsored frozen ATPL or CPL, MCC...)
2nd further training (TR...)
3rd FO "job renting" (line training with 500 hours or similar)
4th maybe proper recruitment and a proper job
what airlines have is pilots whose talent is basically unknown in most cases but clearly poorer in average as there hasn't been any previous selection. This product which quality no one knows is then put to fly in the airline at the airline's risk. Moneywise seems a good system, except if one day something happens.
In this system, 100 guys pay a fortune and then only 10 get the job (paying more than the others).
The FTOs are to be blamed.
Of course, they exist because of the JAA regulations, which suck.
These are to blame!
But how can you fight them????
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Sorry but nonsense Microburst2002
It doesn't matter how you dress it up, or dress it down, if cadets didn't pay for the schemes they wouldn't exist. It really is that simple.
It doesn't matter how you dress it up, or dress it down, if cadets didn't pay for the schemes they wouldn't exist. It really is that simple.
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There may be a looming shortage of Pilots but most of the UK airlines recruiting are looking for Pilots to fulfill overseas basings (EZY,DHL,FR) etc.
If things get tight new wannabies may have a choice of going to an airline where they have to pay £££ for the rating or an airline that pays it for them, pays a good wage, and bonds them just like in the old days
If things get tight new wannabies may have a choice of going to an airline where they have to pay £££ for the rating or an airline that pays it for them, pays a good wage, and bonds them just like in the old days
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Mi EASA Su EASA
You are totally missing the point. The point is not for people to not pay for their training, the point is why do all these PTF schemes and SSTR schemes exist? Afterall, we all have to pay for our training. It's the "post training" costs we're talking about.
Mi EASA Su EASA your kind of quick fix attitude is what is very wrong with the industry today, it's not about giving up on your dream, it's about being smart with your training. Whilst we're on it you could always do what I did, pay for it myself (fATPL), pay for an instructor's rating and then apply to airlines the traditional way.
Good luck.
You are totally missing the point. The point is not for people to not pay for their training, the point is why do all these PTF schemes and SSTR schemes exist? Afterall, we all have to pay for our training. It's the "post training" costs we're talking about.
Mi EASA Su EASA your kind of quick fix attitude is what is very wrong with the industry today, it's not about giving up on your dream, it's about being smart with your training. Whilst we're on it you could always do what I did, pay for it myself (fATPL), pay for an instructor's rating and then apply to airlines the traditional way.
Good luck.
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If there were no referees, football would be a much different game.
You could ask the players to kindly not kick their opponents, but as long as there there were no rules and no referees, many would play football more like rugby, or worse. The game itself would be degraded.
But if you set the rules and enforce them, football is not degraded. It is not perfect, but if works reasonable well and we can enjoy it.
You could ask the players to kindly not kick their opponents, but as long as there there were no rules and no referees, many would play football more like rugby, or worse. The game itself would be degraded.
But if you set the rules and enforce them, football is not degraded. It is not perfect, but if works reasonable well and we can enjoy it.
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Having retired years ago, all the comments being made now were made in 1967, same problems, same frustrations, same relative costs with fewer airlines to apply to. It will get better simply because fewer trained military pilots, no sponsored training from the airlines and a massive retirement bulge and expansion in aviation in the pipeline. Stick with it.
So some have lots of money to spend on their goals of being an airline pilot and some (the FTOs and some airlines ) are willing to facilitate the same. Given the relatively restrictive nature of UK labour laws - (you pretty much can't strike against something unless it's a direct dispute between you and your employer ) what exactly is BALPA meant to do to fix the problem?
Last edited by wiggy; 6th Nov 2010 at 19:25.
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They come out of an integrated course with £100,000 worth of debt, they need to do something so it then spirals out of control. Well don't do the training if there are no jobs. The flight schools are full even when we are sliding into recession and beyond. It's completely bonkers.
When pilots are getting laid off, airlines are going tango uniform, T&C's are ever decreasing as carriers look for a few points on cent per passenger seat mile, people are still lining up to sign on the dotted line, get their parents, or their own house in hock on the fallacy of available jobs out there. A pilot shortage...
Look at the title of this thread; BALPA citing a shortage !
That'll get more cadets through the doors of the FTO's, more people getting in debt on this fallacy.
Then when push comes to shove, with a newly minted ticket and 200 hours, the stark realisation they've been sold a pup, and that ticket is just going to be a ticking clock of liability, so any offer no matter how poor is the only way into a flight deck, or that debt has nothing to show for it.
Bonkers. Absolute stark staring bonkers. And those that feed the fallacy ?
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I agree Deano777 that the situation is bad with the P2F schemes after training in order to get these type ratings, but I have recently finished with a major FTO and the options available to me are as follows;
1. Pay £5-7000 for a Flight Instructor rating and hope there is a job for me in a recession, as you suggest; or
2. Pay £8000 for a type rating on a A320 with EZY; or there is always option 3.
3. Having got myself in debt to the tune of £60k, give up on being a pilot because it wouldn't be the "traditional way".
Please tell me which the "smart" choice is (if you were me). Would you really pick option number 1? 2 is rather tempting!
1. Pay £5-7000 for a Flight Instructor rating and hope there is a job for me in a recession, as you suggest; or
2. Pay £8000 for a type rating on a A320 with EZY; or there is always option 3.
3. Having got myself in debt to the tune of £60k, give up on being a pilot because it wouldn't be the "traditional way".
Please tell me which the "smart" choice is (if you were me). Would you really pick option number 1? 2 is rather tempting!
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Don't you think it was a bit daft spending 60 grand on a licence that is worthless unless you spend another 30 grand* for the add on?
It is people like you that are perpetuating the problem that you have the gall to complain about.
The smart choice would have been to save your 60 thousand quid, get another job, save a bit more and then go and get your CPL/IR when the market is right. That would be the smart choice but unfortunately it seems that you fell for the FTO spin and now you think you can come on this board and moan about your choices instead of addressing the real problem. You.
Also don't forget that the "contracts" at ezy and Ryanair are crap and that you'll only get paid when you fly. Have a look at the Ryanair standby thread.
*8K is a bit short of the real figure you'll need to pay for a job at Ryanair or ezy
It is people like you that are perpetuating the problem that you have the gall to complain about.
The smart choice would have been to save your 60 thousand quid, get another job, save a bit more and then go and get your CPL/IR when the market is right. That would be the smart choice but unfortunately it seems that you fell for the FTO spin and now you think you can come on this board and moan about your choices instead of addressing the real problem. You.
Also don't forget that the "contracts" at ezy and Ryanair are crap and that you'll only get paid when you fly. Have a look at the Ryanair standby thread.
*8K is a bit short of the real figure you'll need to pay for a job at Ryanair or ezy
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Actually Lord Spandex £8000 is a very acurate figure for a job at Easy, and yes £30k is the going rate at Ryanair (but I'm off to Easy, so £8k for me, contract already signed!).
Also, how long would you have liked me to have waited for in your ideal scenario? Its been a while since airlines sponsored cadets training, can count on one hand the opportunities that have arisen post 2001 (almost 10 years ago!!!).
Would you rather I'd started a one man strike against P2F and watch everyone else around me achieve their personal goal by paying. Don't think that would achieve much!
Also, how long would you have liked me to have waited for in your ideal scenario? Its been a while since airlines sponsored cadets training, can count on one hand the opportunities that have arisen post 2001 (almost 10 years ago!!!).
Would you rather I'd started a one man strike against P2F and watch everyone else around me achieve their personal goal by paying. Don't think that would achieve much!
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Mi EASA Su EASA
If it were me, I would go with option 2.
It's too late for you now but what I mean when I say be smart with your training is to target your training accordingly. Personally I couldn't go integrated, a) I couldn't afford it, and b) I had a full time job with a mortgage and family to support. But what I did was quite simple and took an hour's research (something most wannabes do not do).
Now I was (still am) old in relative terms to getting into the industry, I left school with no A levels or Uni degree (although I did catch up on a Uni degree later on in life) so I looked at my chances of getting into alot of airlines and short-listed 2. I then looked at ways of gaining employment with these two airlines and ended up with one option. It was this option I chose to target. Then I looked at flight schools to do the training with, and one of them had a "tie-in" with the airline I was targeting - perfect. All I have to do now is get on the course, do well and get the recommendation. This is exactly what happened, I had the recommendation. Next though was the interview and sim check to pass. Having not done an MCC yet I found out what aircraft they did their sim checks on - perfect, now I will target my MCC accordingly. I spend about £1,000 more on my MCC than I would have liked, but hey it was worth it, because when I did my sim check it was a breeze, I passed the interview and the sim check, got offered the job and also got a bond for my type rating.
That's what I mean about being smart with your training, and without the Instructor's Rating on top the whole lot cost me about £49,000, this included all expenses, exam fees, headsets, maps yadda yadda. I also gained employment with no training debt whatsoever (lucky me).
Now if I could do it, trust me anyone can.
D777
If it were me, I would go with option 2.
It's too late for you now but what I mean when I say be smart with your training is to target your training accordingly. Personally I couldn't go integrated, a) I couldn't afford it, and b) I had a full time job with a mortgage and family to support. But what I did was quite simple and took an hour's research (something most wannabes do not do).
Now I was (still am) old in relative terms to getting into the industry, I left school with no A levels or Uni degree (although I did catch up on a Uni degree later on in life) so I looked at my chances of getting into alot of airlines and short-listed 2. I then looked at ways of gaining employment with these two airlines and ended up with one option. It was this option I chose to target. Then I looked at flight schools to do the training with, and one of them had a "tie-in" with the airline I was targeting - perfect. All I have to do now is get on the course, do well and get the recommendation. This is exactly what happened, I had the recommendation. Next though was the interview and sim check to pass. Having not done an MCC yet I found out what aircraft they did their sim checks on - perfect, now I will target my MCC accordingly. I spend about £1,000 more on my MCC than I would have liked, but hey it was worth it, because when I did my sim check it was a breeze, I passed the interview and the sim check, got offered the job and also got a bond for my type rating.
That's what I mean about being smart with your training, and without the Instructor's Rating on top the whole lot cost me about £49,000, this included all expenses, exam fees, headsets, maps yadda yadda. I also gained employment with no training debt whatsoever (lucky me).
Now if I could do it, trust me anyone can.
D777
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Actually Lord Spandex £8000 is a very acurate figure for a job at Easy, and yes £30k is the going rate at Ryanair (but I'm off to Easy, so £8k for me, contract already signed!).
Also, how long would you have liked me to have waited for in your ideal scenario? Its been a while since airlines sponsored cadets training, can count on one hand the opportunities that have arisen post 2001 (almost 10 years ago!!!).
Would you rather I'd started a one man strike against P2F and watch everyone else around me achieve their personal goal by paying. Don't think that would achieve much!
Also, how long would you have liked me to have waited for in your ideal scenario? Its been a while since airlines sponsored cadets training, can count on one hand the opportunities that have arisen post 2001 (almost 10 years ago!!!).
Would you rather I'd started a one man strike against P2F and watch everyone else around me achieve their personal goal by paying. Don't think that would achieve much!
How long? As long as it takes really. I'm not talking about sponsorship, although that would be a safer investment, I'm talking about the demand for qualified pilots. Unfortunately because of this P2F crap you have broken the cycle of hiring and now there are less jobs available for the newly qualified unless they do what you do and pay more for less, do you see how you are causing this to continue indefinitely? Patience would have saved you 8 thousand pounds at least.
A one man strike would be as ineffective as me giving up my job so you didn't have to pay, as someone suggested I do earlier! What you all should have done is refused to pay for a job. Then the real job offers would have had to be realised by the airlines. By the way, paying for something is not the same as achieving something.
I'm not blaming you personally for this situation but everybody who, like you, has paid for a ****ty contract for instant self-gratification.
Generally, there will never be a shortage of newly qualified pilots available to airlines. There will, hopefully, be a shortage of pilots unable or unwilling to give thousands of pounds to a multi-million pound airline.
Good. And Balpa should be pleased about that.
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Lord spandex,
i understand your point, ^^
however, conversely, lets say that all pilots in the UK stood together and flatly refused. what then? then simply recruit non UK pilots that will.
i understand your point, ^^
however, conversely, lets say that all pilots in the UK stood together and flatly refused. what then? then simply recruit non UK pilots that will.