BALPA - UK facing shortage of pilots
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BALPA - UK facing shortage of pilots
So it is not only the FTO's saying such things... 
Link:
BBC News - UK facing shortage of pilots, union Balpa warns
Link:
BBC News - UK facing shortage of pilots, union Balpa warns
The UK could face a future shortage of airline pilots because of the soaring cost of training, a union has warned.
The British Airline Pilots Association says the number of recruits to flight colleges is falling.
Aspiring pilots can no longer count on airline sponsors to fund costs of up to £100,000 to obtain a commercial licence, it added.
A Balpa campaign is pressing individual airlines to shoulder more of the responsibility for training.
The union says it is now almost impossible for young people from middle and low-income families to get into the profession.
Most airline training schemes are said to have come to end in the late 1990s and companies also recently stopped paying the cost of obtaining the additional "type rating" licences required to fly specific aircraft.
Lobbying MPs
Captain Mark Searle, Balpa's chairman, said: "Once trainees have their basic licence they increasingly have to find another £25,000 to £35,000 to pay for the 'privilege' of building their experience at the controls of a big jet and get their type rating.
"This is plain wrong. These young pilots are desperate for a job and are now being charged by airlines to fly fare-paying passengers. Airlines should be ashamed.
"This is also bad economics for the UK. With the economic downturn showing some signs of reversing, Britain's aviation industry is going to wake up with a pilot shortage because of the disgraceful way we have been treating young hopefuls."
Pilot Martin Alder, a Balpa member, told the BBC there was need for about 400 new pilots a year in the UK.
"In the past airlines would offer sponsorship so young people who have the right academic qualifications and aptitude would go along and be tested for their ability to fly and their training would be paid for," he said.
"It would be about a two year course and then they'd arrive at the airlines and start working for a living, paying back that investment."
Meanwhile, Dena Dove, from Bournemouth Commercial Flight Training Centre, said the industry had also begun to lobby MPs for aviation training to be exempted from VAT, as is the case for other educational courses.
The British Airline Pilots Association says the number of recruits to flight colleges is falling.
Aspiring pilots can no longer count on airline sponsors to fund costs of up to £100,000 to obtain a commercial licence, it added.
A Balpa campaign is pressing individual airlines to shoulder more of the responsibility for training.
The union says it is now almost impossible for young people from middle and low-income families to get into the profession.
Most airline training schemes are said to have come to end in the late 1990s and companies also recently stopped paying the cost of obtaining the additional "type rating" licences required to fly specific aircraft.
Lobbying MPs
Captain Mark Searle, Balpa's chairman, said: "Once trainees have their basic licence they increasingly have to find another £25,000 to £35,000 to pay for the 'privilege' of building their experience at the controls of a big jet and get their type rating.
"This is plain wrong. These young pilots are desperate for a job and are now being charged by airlines to fly fare-paying passengers. Airlines should be ashamed.
"This is also bad economics for the UK. With the economic downturn showing some signs of reversing, Britain's aviation industry is going to wake up with a pilot shortage because of the disgraceful way we have been treating young hopefuls."
Pilot Martin Alder, a Balpa member, told the BBC there was need for about 400 new pilots a year in the UK.
"In the past airlines would offer sponsorship so young people who have the right academic qualifications and aptitude would go along and be tested for their ability to fly and their training would be paid for," he said.
"It would be about a two year course and then they'd arrive at the airlines and start working for a living, paying back that investment."
Meanwhile, Dena Dove, from Bournemouth Commercial Flight Training Centre, said the industry had also begun to lobby MPs for aviation training to be exempted from VAT, as is the case for other educational courses.
An accurate and worthy article, so don't know why you are banging your head over it FlexGate.
Pilot cadets are afforded precisely diddly-squat in the way of student recognition in the UK.
Airlines' HR departments are turning into profit making centres and won't invest in their employees' training.
EU VAT laws are interpreted in the UK differently to pretty much every other EU country, meaning we pay VAT on all aspects of training, while other countries only impose it on certain elements, or not at all.
The upshot? UK PLC will simply decamp to other EASA-regulated countries with lower oversight charges and the once highly respected UK flight training industry will be conisgned to the history books.
Pilot cadets are afforded precisely diddly-squat in the way of student recognition in the UK.
Airlines' HR departments are turning into profit making centres and won't invest in their employees' training.
EU VAT laws are interpreted in the UK differently to pretty much every other EU country, meaning we pay VAT on all aspects of training, while other countries only impose it on certain elements, or not at all.
The upshot? UK PLC will simply decamp to other EASA-regulated countries with lower oversight charges and the once highly respected UK flight training industry will be conisgned to the history books.
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Wealthy
If there is a shortage then the market will sort it out.. i.e the sponsorship deals will return...the much heralded pilot shortage is often stated to make the case in the media for people to start to train (an advertising ploy) but in the case of BALPA it makes sense for them to canvas for employers to train because the whole pilot training is becoming available only to the wealthy - the tax thing has always been an issue and that would help ...
The politicians see this (pilot traing) tax revenue as a tax on the wealthy (its seen as progressive) They dont understand that many are borrowing to do this ... and are NOT wealthy...
The politicians see this (pilot traing) tax revenue as a tax on the wealthy (its seen as progressive) They dont understand that many are borrowing to do this ... and are NOT wealthy...
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hmm.. i'm not sold on the BALPA warning.
there are pleantly of pilots in the UK, however, a lot have decided not persue a cockpit job as the return is not commensurate with the input. and secondly with the poor T&C's offered pilots with time on type are looking elsewhere in the globe for career and financial rewards, as well as an actual job per se.
instead of more recruits needed, some of the crass and frankly insulting terms offered out there could be revised to take up a significant quantity of pilots that already have the license in hand, but can neither find a job that will offer terms worth considering, or to become actually employed by an airline, or terms worth sticking around in the UK for.
there *will* be shortfall of UK pilots simply becuase its getting to the point that financial input over return and security just isnt worth it and those that do have ToT can often get better T&C's and a better lifestyle elsewhere.
BALPA are to blame for that as much as the carriers who offer dire terms.
there are pleantly of pilots in the UK, however, a lot have decided not persue a cockpit job as the return is not commensurate with the input. and secondly with the poor T&C's offered pilots with time on type are looking elsewhere in the globe for career and financial rewards, as well as an actual job per se.
instead of more recruits needed, some of the crass and frankly insulting terms offered out there could be revised to take up a significant quantity of pilots that already have the license in hand, but can neither find a job that will offer terms worth considering, or to become actually employed by an airline, or terms worth sticking around in the UK for.
there *will* be shortfall of UK pilots simply becuase its getting to the point that financial input over return and security just isnt worth it and those that do have ToT can often get better T&C's and a better lifestyle elsewhere.
BALPA are to blame for that as much as the carriers who offer dire terms.
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Yes I agree with stuckgear, BALPA saw this coming for years and did nothing about it. So now when it has effected the top brass in the Industry they are willing to only now do somthing!! What goes around comes around....
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"Once trainees have their basic licence they increasingly have to find another £25,000 to £35,000 to pay for the 'privilege' of building their experience at the controls of a big jet and get their type rating.
1. No they don't.
2. Why a big jet?
3. Have Balpa not heard of Turbo props? You know, traditionally the way we all used to break in to this industry.
If it wasn't for the greedy "I want one and I want it now" spoilt brats of today none of this would be happening.
Balpa, get a grip.
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I agree BALPA have been very slow, in fact unforgivingly slow out of the starting blocks to address this problem, however its better that they are putting this in the public domain now rather than never at all.
The media is a powerfull machine, BALPA should use it more often.
The media is a powerfull machine, BALPA should use it more often.
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Serenity, yes it does seem so.
If they are that desperate they would be taking any flying job.
Not only should the airlines be ashamed, but these young pilots and Balpa should be too. It has all happened because of them.
Friends of mine spent years flying air ambulance and air taxi stuff before they got a break and made it into an airline.
If things had stayed the way they were then career progression for everybody would be so much faster.
These young pilots are desperate for a job and are now being charged by airlines to fly fare-paying passengers. Airlines should be ashamed.
Not only should the airlines be ashamed, but these young pilots and Balpa should be too. It has all happened because of them.
Friends of mine spent years flying air ambulance and air taxi stuff before they got a break and made it into an airline.
If things had stayed the way they were then career progression for everybody would be so much faster.
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The real scandal is that there seems to be NO shortage of pilots willing to purchase a job and then work for a salary that just isn't viable.
It's great to see that BALPA are pushing this issue and that major media groups are interested in the story. However, the real issue is not a shortage of pilots. It's one of flight safety, as previously risk averse airlines clamber to recruit experience free rich kids who are willing to purchase airline jobs like trial lessons.
It's great to see that BALPA are pushing this issue and that major media groups are interested in the story. However, the real issue is not a shortage of pilots. It's one of flight safety, as previously risk averse airlines clamber to recruit experience free rich kids who are willing to purchase airline jobs like trial lessons.
Last edited by Atlantic_Conveyor; 4th Nov 2010 at 23:05.
Masher - spot on!!
If they are that desperate they would be taking any flying job.
Comments like that merely show your ignorance of the current state of the industry.
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As Lloyd Grossman used to say "Let exaaamine the evidaaance"
Most UK airlines have a seniority scheme. So they know the age of the pilots when they employ them and they can predict the age at which they will retire.
If they have a good grasp of the market and understand the lead time to bring on to line new equipment then predicting crew resources is mathematics.
So why has there been a cyclical surplus/shortage since I was a Nipper?
BA have suddenly decided they need 80 bods to fuel their workforce. Surprise surprise.
HR - doncha jus luv em
Most UK airlines have a seniority scheme. So they know the age of the pilots when they employ them and they can predict the age at which they will retire.
If they have a good grasp of the market and understand the lead time to bring on to line new equipment then predicting crew resources is mathematics.
So why has there been a cyclical surplus/shortage since I was a Nipper?
BA have suddenly decided they need 80 bods to fuel their workforce. Surprise surprise.
HR - doncha jus luv em
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You have to ask why some of the worst Ts&Cs are at BALPA recognised companies and, more significantly, why the one major UK airline with a pay to fly scheme has one of the most vocal BALPA reps on here, always banging on about what a great job they've done and how great that company is to work for...
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Here's a thought............
Problem: Balpa starting to worry about its future as pensions meltdown threatens to divide and polarise the uk workforce who pay their subs. At the same time they suddenly clock senior members will not be paying subs anymore on retirement following the harsher tax regime. Cue big red panic button.
Solution: I know, let's start to take an interest in the poor afflicted pay to fly/self sponsored who will surely be employed in a few years somewhere in the industry (even though before the policy was that more pilots=weaker negotiating position for the union therefore let the little Herberts get on with it).
Sorry guys, industry, CAA and Unions have all had their chance to embed a cost effective strategy to give the best people from all backgrounds the possibility of successful career. They have all failed
Problem: Balpa starting to worry about its future as pensions meltdown threatens to divide and polarise the uk workforce who pay their subs. At the same time they suddenly clock senior members will not be paying subs anymore on retirement following the harsher tax regime. Cue big red panic button.
Solution: I know, let's start to take an interest in the poor afflicted pay to fly/self sponsored who will surely be employed in a few years somewhere in the industry (even though before the policy was that more pilots=weaker negotiating position for the union therefore let the little Herberts get on with it).
Sorry guys, industry, CAA and Unions have all had their chance to embed a cost effective strategy to give the best people from all backgrounds the possibility of successful career. They have all failed
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Er ? ? Good Morning ! ! horse / stable door / bolted.
Having singularly lacked the b@lls to get involved in Ryanair (and I am talking a few years back when IALPA was imploring them to have a recognition ballot, not now, which is FAR FAR too late) having failed to curb the recent riding roughshod over the norms (not you NSF!) of industry standard contracts for new F/O's at Easy, and having always been at best ineffectual (if not even in some cases pro management) at places like BMI, it must be said that this smacks of self interest/panic on the part of the BritishAirwaysLinePilotsAssociation.
They seem (sometimes) to do a half decent job for these BA guys, for the rest of the UK airline industry, it varies from marginally better than nothing to total waste of time. Twas always thus.
Having singularly lacked the b@lls to get involved in Ryanair (and I am talking a few years back when IALPA was imploring them to have a recognition ballot, not now, which is FAR FAR too late) having failed to curb the recent riding roughshod over the norms (not you NSF!) of industry standard contracts for new F/O's at Easy, and having always been at best ineffectual (if not even in some cases pro management) at places like BMI, it must be said that this smacks of self interest/panic on the part of the BritishAirwaysLinePilotsAssociation.
They seem (sometimes) to do a half decent job for these BA guys, for the rest of the UK airline industry, it varies from marginally better than nothing to total waste of time. Twas always thus.
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Pilot career changes....
Business section in today's TIMES (p 53 "New Pilots "priced out" of Training").
This is an issue but only part of a wider change in our industry. Flying has always been an expensive game but it has become much worse for both newbies and pilots wanting to progress up the food chain. The biggest changes of the past 15 years include:
1. The preference for "Integrated" courses sold by FTOs to airline HR managers to the exclusion of Self Improvers who opt to go down the Glider Towing, Instructing, Turboprop, GA route. This has been a nice little earner for Approved FTOs and the airlines are happy paying very low wages (in some cases nothing for 6 months) to the newly hired cadets.
2. The dilution of pilot experience in UK. In part this is as a result of (1) whereby experienced Aviators rarely get the opportunities to progress onto Jet operators. With 911, Sars, Volcanic Ash, Economic Downturn, newly qualified pilots and self improvers have had a very hard time getting any work. And by the time things turn around they are out of currency or getting "too old" for some recruiters.
3. A huge reduction in the number of Military trained pilots coming onto the market (remember 1960s RAF had some 1/4 mil personnel and now around 40k). Yes 2010 SDSR has brought cutbacks and the future may mean more UAVs but overall, less military trained pilots have joined the airlines cf 1980s.
4. All FTOs have found it very hard to recruit highly experienced Instructors. Most Integrated students never consider instructing and having spent £100k, they would rather spend on a Type Rating than £7k on an FI rating. The UK CAA's early adoption of JAR CPL meant no more 700h requirement and hence fewer Instructors being trained up.
5. The dreaded LOCO TRSS/Self Sponsored Type Rating schemes seem to have replaced traditional Employee Bonded agreements. This has become even worse with the advent of Pay to Fly pax. Clearly more about money than Flying Skills or best practice. Many newbees now expect to have to pay for their first airline job! And BALPA have advertised these schemes in THE LOG (BALPA journal).
6. LOCO Airlines have reduced their Pilot workforce Ts&Cs and forced Majors to do the same to compete. A, B, C and even D scales. In real terms the Airline Career now is far worse than in the 1970s. And yet today we hear the BBC spouting Ryanair propoganda about £150k salaries for 18h a week work! The reality is FAR different! One of the main problems is Fatigue and lifestyle that puts many youngsters off. Even Sullenberger told Congress he knew of very few Airline pilots who would recommend their offspring get into an Airline pilot career.
7. Some of the FTOs could do with a shakeup of their proceedures to improve their output standards and create aviators not just button pushers. Humans are good at doing a lot of things but make pretty poor system monitors. Thankfully the CAA, Cranfield University, the RAeS and many in the USA/FAA have done work on Upset recovery aids but this has yet to trickle down to FTOs who have taught TRs the same old way for years - enough to pass an LST but little more.
8. And what is the FTO/Airline/CAA response to any forthcoming shortage? LESS is more - hence MPL !
The media need to heed what is happening in the USA post Colgan and do some investigative journalism to see how cadets are treated and how experienced pilots are often being ignored.
This is an issue but only part of a wider change in our industry. Flying has always been an expensive game but it has become much worse for both newbies and pilots wanting to progress up the food chain. The biggest changes of the past 15 years include:
1. The preference for "Integrated" courses sold by FTOs to airline HR managers to the exclusion of Self Improvers who opt to go down the Glider Towing, Instructing, Turboprop, GA route. This has been a nice little earner for Approved FTOs and the airlines are happy paying very low wages (in some cases nothing for 6 months) to the newly hired cadets.
2. The dilution of pilot experience in UK. In part this is as a result of (1) whereby experienced Aviators rarely get the opportunities to progress onto Jet operators. With 911, Sars, Volcanic Ash, Economic Downturn, newly qualified pilots and self improvers have had a very hard time getting any work. And by the time things turn around they are out of currency or getting "too old" for some recruiters.
3. A huge reduction in the number of Military trained pilots coming onto the market (remember 1960s RAF had some 1/4 mil personnel and now around 40k). Yes 2010 SDSR has brought cutbacks and the future may mean more UAVs but overall, less military trained pilots have joined the airlines cf 1980s.
4. All FTOs have found it very hard to recruit highly experienced Instructors. Most Integrated students never consider instructing and having spent £100k, they would rather spend on a Type Rating than £7k on an FI rating. The UK CAA's early adoption of JAR CPL meant no more 700h requirement and hence fewer Instructors being trained up.
5. The dreaded LOCO TRSS/Self Sponsored Type Rating schemes seem to have replaced traditional Employee Bonded agreements. This has become even worse with the advent of Pay to Fly pax. Clearly more about money than Flying Skills or best practice. Many newbees now expect to have to pay for their first airline job! And BALPA have advertised these schemes in THE LOG (BALPA journal).
6. LOCO Airlines have reduced their Pilot workforce Ts&Cs and forced Majors to do the same to compete. A, B, C and even D scales. In real terms the Airline Career now is far worse than in the 1970s. And yet today we hear the BBC spouting Ryanair propoganda about £150k salaries for 18h a week work! The reality is FAR different! One of the main problems is Fatigue and lifestyle that puts many youngsters off. Even Sullenberger told Congress he knew of very few Airline pilots who would recommend their offspring get into an Airline pilot career.
7. Some of the FTOs could do with a shakeup of their proceedures to improve their output standards and create aviators not just button pushers. Humans are good at doing a lot of things but make pretty poor system monitors. Thankfully the CAA, Cranfield University, the RAeS and many in the USA/FAA have done work on Upset recovery aids but this has yet to trickle down to FTOs who have taught TRs the same old way for years - enough to pass an LST but little more.
8. And what is the FTO/Airline/CAA response to any forthcoming shortage? LESS is more - hence MPL !
The media need to heed what is happening in the USA post Colgan and do some investigative journalism to see how cadets are treated and how experienced pilots are often being ignored.
Last edited by angelorange; 4th Nov 2010 at 22:44.
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At a recent CAA safety conference one of the issues highlighted was Loss of Control.
Worth thinking about in view of current types, automation, training and children of the x-box age who become children of the magenta line.
Sir George Cayley
Worth thinking about in view of current types, automation, training and children of the x-box age who become children of the magenta line.
Sir George Cayley
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I guess you're part of the "I want it now" crowd with comments like that. There is no way you'd take a job on 404 earning bugger all a year as an air taxi when you can just pay through the nose and hop straight into the right seat of a big shiny jet.
You see what happens when you do that? There is now no job for the newly qualified pilot because the air taxi job he could have had is still being filled by the air taxi pilot who can't move on to a turbo prop because the turbo prop job he could have had is still being filled by a turbo prop pilot who can't move on to a big shiny jet because people like you have paid to jump the queue.