BALPA - UK facing shortage of pilots
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Well we try to ensure that they don't pay either. Lets look at this as a industry wide problem not just a UK problem, which it isn't.
The only people that can stop this are the 'payers'. All it will take is a brave man to stand up and say no, and if you are clever, insightful and forward thinking you will all follow him, that will instantly cut the head off the dragon so to speak.
Stand together and stop it, only you can do it by refusing.
The only people that can stop this are the 'payers'. All it will take is a brave man to stand up and say no, and if you are clever, insightful and forward thinking you will all follow him, that will instantly cut the head off the dragon so to speak.
Stand together and stop it, only you can do it by refusing.
L'enfant Terrible
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Mi Easa Su Easa et al,
There are still ways of getting into the industry without shelling out, it's just that people often feel they're beneath them as newly qualified fATPLs or just don't put enough effort into networking.
I had absolutely no chance of paying a penny more after gaining my licence as I was already well and truly on my arse! But as I was happy to fly a dated type (your words) in this case a knackered czech skydiving aeroplane as opposed to a 737 of any description, whilst packing parachutes, pulling pints and keeping a sense of humour whilst broke. I was able to not only build multi-crew turboprop hours, but got a recommendation from my boss to his mate in South Africa.
Fast forward a couple of months and I was hooning said knackered czech turboprop around the Congo and Algeria, scaring the life out of myself and learning enough from some tremendous captains to push my meagre skills into the average bracket (where they remain). Meanwhile, my newly type-rated friend found no A320 jobs available for someone with 1 hour total time on the jet (he still hasn't years later) but still claimed I was mad.
When Flybe phoned, the lovely Jo in recruitment found it very interesting that I had a bit of a story to tell and slotted me in for an interview between trips away with work (an old skydiving contact had put a word in) and here I stay 3 years later.
In summary, yeah the money still isn't great, some might say I got lucky, to a point they'd be right, but I maintain I sucked it up, made my own luck, did some really crappy jobs, had a laugh, made some great contacts who still help me out and am able to get a sliver respect from some skippers for having seen the world and some interesting flying. I'd still love one of the jet jobs that you lot are paying through the nose for, but would I swap with you and have it all now?..
Hell no!
There are still ways of getting into the industry without shelling out, it's just that people often feel they're beneath them as newly qualified fATPLs or just don't put enough effort into networking.
I had absolutely no chance of paying a penny more after gaining my licence as I was already well and truly on my arse! But as I was happy to fly a dated type (your words) in this case a knackered czech skydiving aeroplane as opposed to a 737 of any description, whilst packing parachutes, pulling pints and keeping a sense of humour whilst broke. I was able to not only build multi-crew turboprop hours, but got a recommendation from my boss to his mate in South Africa.
Fast forward a couple of months and I was hooning said knackered czech turboprop around the Congo and Algeria, scaring the life out of myself and learning enough from some tremendous captains to push my meagre skills into the average bracket (where they remain). Meanwhile, my newly type-rated friend found no A320 jobs available for someone with 1 hour total time on the jet (he still hasn't years later) but still claimed I was mad.
When Flybe phoned, the lovely Jo in recruitment found it very interesting that I had a bit of a story to tell and slotted me in for an interview between trips away with work (an old skydiving contact had put a word in) and here I stay 3 years later.
In summary, yeah the money still isn't great, some might say I got lucky, to a point they'd be right, but I maintain I sucked it up, made my own luck, did some really crappy jobs, had a laugh, made some great contacts who still help me out and am able to get a sliver respect from some skippers for having seen the world and some interesting flying. I'd still love one of the jet jobs that you lot are paying through the nose for, but would I swap with you and have it all now?..
Hell no!
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It would be great if everybody refused the sort of contracts/P2F schemes on offer at moment. But the reality is that this will never happen. In my FTOs holdpool, out of those offered the EZY deal, a very small minority rejected it because they couldn't afford it and an even smaller minority (1-2) decided they would wait for something better to come up. They had the luxury of a well paid job to fall back on, which enabled them to take the morale high ground, which I would if I had a nice job.
So you spent Ģ49k + Instructor Rating (Ģ5-6k) = Ģ55k
I spent Ģ60k + Type Rating (Ģ8k) = Ģ68k
Ģ68k-Ģ55k = Ģ13k
In the scheme of things (my whole career), this is a small price difference and one I was willing to find in order to become an airline pilot.
So you spent Ģ49k + Instructor Rating (Ģ5-6k) = Ģ55k
I spent Ģ60k + Type Rating (Ģ8k) = Ģ68k
Ģ68k-Ģ55k = Ģ13k
In the scheme of things (my whole career), this is a small price difference and one I was willing to find in order to become an airline pilot.
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I sympathise with your situation. But do you understand why you are having to pay to work?
Do you sympathise with the line of people now behind you in the grand scheme of things who can't move onwards and upwards with their careers?
It maybe a small price for you but for the people you have leapfrogged it will be a larger one. Somebody who has earnt, not bought, the right to have your job with it's increased salary (in the old days with proper contracts) can no longer progress.
Lets say the average difference between a jet salary and a t/p salary is 30K a year. The t/p pilot has another 35 years on that reduced salary (ignoring pay rises etc.) which equates to over a million pounds. That is a big price to pay for you to realise your own desires. Notwithstanding the fact that when you would eventually make it to where you are now by the traditional route the salary and Ts&Cs would be a whole lot better than they are now.
Do you sympathise with the line of people now behind you in the grand scheme of things who can't move onwards and upwards with their careers?
this is a small price difference and one I was willing to find in order to become an airline pilot.
Lets say the average difference between a jet salary and a t/p salary is 30K a year. The t/p pilot has another 35 years on that reduced salary (ignoring pay rises etc.) which equates to over a million pounds. That is a big price to pay for you to realise your own desires. Notwithstanding the fact that when you would eventually make it to where you are now by the traditional route the salary and Ts&Cs would be a whole lot better than they are now.
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Yes I do feel sorry for people stuck with x-thousand hours on turboprop that want to get to jets, and that is due to cadets like myself accepting the current method into the airlines.
BUT, I'm afraid you have to look after yourself in this game (especially when you have a large loan gambled on it) and I/Nor any other cadet would think I will not fork out the extra Ģ13k to do the job I really want because I feel sorry for people who are stuck with x-thousand hours on turboprop that want to get to jets.
And also, I still had to train hard to get my fATPL. They don't just give you a piece of paper because you gave them a load of money.
I can see your point of view very clearly lord spandex. However, if I didn't accept the EZY offer based on disapproval of the system, then I would be cutting my nose off to spite my face, because P2F would still exist and I'd be out of a job! It will only work if there is a 100% rejection of these deals, which won't happen I'm afraid.
BUT, I'm afraid you have to look after yourself in this game (especially when you have a large loan gambled on it) and I/Nor any other cadet would think I will not fork out the extra Ģ13k to do the job I really want because I feel sorry for people who are stuck with x-thousand hours on turboprop that want to get to jets.
And also, I still had to train hard to get my fATPL. They don't just give you a piece of paper because you gave them a load of money.
I can see your point of view very clearly lord spandex. However, if I didn't accept the EZY offer based on disapproval of the system, then I would be cutting my nose off to spite my face, because P2F would still exist and I'd be out of a job! It will only work if there is a 100% rejection of these deals, which won't happen I'm afraid.
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Air Asia
Apparently short of 50+ captains as we speak. FO entry salary is $34k and they have a massive shortage especially since they plan to expand with 120 additional a/c in the coming 5 years
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Mi EASA
Are you telling me your integrated course (I assume you went integrated?) cost a total of Ģ60k? I am assuming this price includes absolutely every single cost you outlayed including food/accomodation/travel/equipment etc? If so you are a very lucky boy and you are in the minority.
You may well have money to burn but to me Ģ13,000 is a serious amount of money. If you think it isn't then herein lies another inherant issue.
Another thing is this Ģ8k to join Easy is all well and good, but if you don't get hired at the end of your 6 month contract then your Airbus rating with 250/300 hrs is as much use as a used piece of toilet paper.
Are you telling me your integrated course (I assume you went integrated?) cost a total of Ģ60k? I am assuming this price includes absolutely every single cost you outlayed including food/accomodation/travel/equipment etc? If so you are a very lucky boy and you are in the minority.
You may well have money to burn but to me Ģ13,000 is a serious amount of money. If you think it isn't then herein lies another inherant issue.
Another thing is this Ģ8k to join Easy is all well and good, but if you don't get hired at the end of your 6 month contract then your Airbus rating with 250/300 hrs is as much use as a used piece of toilet paper.
Last edited by Deano777; 7th Nov 2010 at 14:27. Reason: Spelling
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Pay to fly
The guys that moved right into a jet job have missed a part of their education that can not be replaced by textbook. You owe it to your passengers to be a well rounded pilot.
We all need to take the business back from accountants and be willing to give it up if we can't. It is hard to tell owners and management to back off, but it needs to be done. (I fight with the owner about bonding which I refuse to allow, much less pay to fly). They have planes and need people to fly them. If we all grow a pair they will have to play by our rules.
We all need to take the business back from accountants and be willing to give it up if we can't. It is hard to tell owners and management to back off, but it needs to be done. (I fight with the owner about bonding which I refuse to allow, much less pay to fly). They have planes and need people to fly them. If we all grow a pair they will have to play by our rules.
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Here we face two different issues:
1- self sponsoring; and
2- renting someone else's job
1-
Self sponsoring is difficult to erradicate. It became excesive when we started to be required to by self sponsored type rated. Because then the question was: "On what bloody airplane??" So people had to bet on this or that type.
TRTOs offering this TRs, which should be just ilegal, have made a killing, and we have been the victims (those with the money and those without it).
2-
as a consecuence of the above, FTOs, TRTOs and Airlines have seen a bussiness oportunity and they are currently renting jobs to people willing to pay.
Now let us examine the big difference:
If an FTO offers me training, I pay and then they provide it to me, only they and I are involved.
Same with a TRTO.
But if an airline offers me a RHS job, I pay, they provide it (1 year/500 hours), then there is someone who has lost is job. There is a third party involved in this, who doesn't pay nor provide anything. He only loses his job.
JOBS ARE FOR GETTING PAID
ISN'T IT ILLEGAL TO PAY FOR A JOB?
Have you paid for your ATPL? OK
Have you paid for your TR? OK, I hope you had a target in mind and was well wired
Have you paid for flying with pax in the airline that would have hired me instead for money, or any of my friends without jobs and thousands of hours in the type? Did you? then SHAME ON YOU
1- self sponsoring; and
2- renting someone else's job
1-
Self sponsoring is difficult to erradicate. It became excesive when we started to be required to by self sponsored type rated. Because then the question was: "On what bloody airplane??" So people had to bet on this or that type.
TRTOs offering this TRs, which should be just ilegal, have made a killing, and we have been the victims (those with the money and those without it).
2-
as a consecuence of the above, FTOs, TRTOs and Airlines have seen a bussiness oportunity and they are currently renting jobs to people willing to pay.
Now let us examine the big difference:
If an FTO offers me training, I pay and then they provide it to me, only they and I are involved.
Same with a TRTO.
But if an airline offers me a RHS job, I pay, they provide it (1 year/500 hours), then there is someone who has lost is job. There is a third party involved in this, who doesn't pay nor provide anything. He only loses his job.
JOBS ARE FOR GETTING PAID
ISN'T IT ILLEGAL TO PAY FOR A JOB?
Have you paid for your ATPL? OK
Have you paid for your TR? OK, I hope you had a target in mind and was well wired
Have you paid for flying with pax in the airline that would have hired me instead for money, or any of my friends without jobs and thousands of hours in the type? Did you? then SHAME ON YOU
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Remember not everyone doing P2F is a 200 hr wannabe! I have heard of quite experienced guys with 2-3000 hours feeling they have no option but to do it whether it be due to redundancy or frustration with their career progression.
P2F and SSTR both serve a purpose. The TRTOs and airlines secure an extra revenue stream and the "cadet" obtains a rating with relevant experience which often opens doors that were otherwise closed. Both parties feed off each other.
I do not like P2F but I think it is here to stay. All this talk of petitions and lobbying BALPA will not make the problem go away. Easyjet's P2F scheme ended and another airline stepped in. If no UK airline will partake in this scheme the major TRTOs will take the P2F offshore, to Europe for example. They'll do the basic rating here in Blighty and base/line training will be done on the continent. The newly trained guys will still complete their training and return to be snapped up by Easyjet!
There is a lot of hypocrisy and bitch talk amongst pilots, we say "stick together, don't accept such poor T & Cs, boycott P2F" etc etc but in reality when the doors close and we are on our own, we generally do our own thing. We look after ourselves first and forget the rest - it is afterall human nature! As they say the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak! Why do you think beancounters love us pilots? Because we are so easy to divide and rule! The solidarity required to achieve anything meaningful is to some extent at odds with our chosen profession which is highly competitive and brings out a certain atavistic trait in us to survive, almost at all cost!
When I started taking lessons more than a decade ago there were still a few of the old regional airlines about like Gill Airways, Streamline, Air/KLMuk, Brymon, Emerald etc to cut your teeth on. So after getting my frozen ATPL I became an instructor and aimed to follow the well trodden path through instructing/air taxi/regional turboprop then Airbus or Boeing heavy metal. Things changed while instructing, most if not all of the regionals disappeared or merged and the value of a GA background and turboprops diminished. Luckily for me I managed to get a job in corporate aviation where my GA background was appreciated and I eventually managed to unfreeze my ATPL and have fun along the way!
Nowadays airlines sadly do not value single pilot experience, be it instructing or air taxi and many don't value multi crew turborprop experience. Particularly in the latter case, this is a serious mistake and very shortsighted. With the highly automated systems in aeroplanes these days, old fashioned stick 'n' rudder skills are not appreciated. In today's brave new world, the bottom line is king. The precedent has been set by the low cost carriers and others are scrambling to follow. Get adequately skilled labour cheaply and if possible transfer as much of the cost of training to the pilot. That is the way of things now.
I don't blame others for considering P2F schemes, especially when instructing, air taxi and other relevant flying experience have been more or less marginalised by most of the airlines, almost rendering them worthless! A few months back I wanted to try the airlines but at the end of the day I wasn't prepared to spend Ģ30k on one of the schemes, i had too much experience which was totally ignored.
It has never been harder to succeed in aviation and human nature dictates we will do whatever we have to survive/succeed even at the expense of others. That is a universal truth whether we like it or not. Those taking the moral high ground may well ultimately be disappointed and end up bitter and resentful.
P2F and SSTR both serve a purpose. The TRTOs and airlines secure an extra revenue stream and the "cadet" obtains a rating with relevant experience which often opens doors that were otherwise closed. Both parties feed off each other.
I do not like P2F but I think it is here to stay. All this talk of petitions and lobbying BALPA will not make the problem go away. Easyjet's P2F scheme ended and another airline stepped in. If no UK airline will partake in this scheme the major TRTOs will take the P2F offshore, to Europe for example. They'll do the basic rating here in Blighty and base/line training will be done on the continent. The newly trained guys will still complete their training and return to be snapped up by Easyjet!
There is a lot of hypocrisy and bitch talk amongst pilots, we say "stick together, don't accept such poor T & Cs, boycott P2F" etc etc but in reality when the doors close and we are on our own, we generally do our own thing. We look after ourselves first and forget the rest - it is afterall human nature! As they say the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak! Why do you think beancounters love us pilots? Because we are so easy to divide and rule! The solidarity required to achieve anything meaningful is to some extent at odds with our chosen profession which is highly competitive and brings out a certain atavistic trait in us to survive, almost at all cost!
When I started taking lessons more than a decade ago there were still a few of the old regional airlines about like Gill Airways, Streamline, Air/KLMuk, Brymon, Emerald etc to cut your teeth on. So after getting my frozen ATPL I became an instructor and aimed to follow the well trodden path through instructing/air taxi/regional turboprop then Airbus or Boeing heavy metal. Things changed while instructing, most if not all of the regionals disappeared or merged and the value of a GA background and turboprops diminished. Luckily for me I managed to get a job in corporate aviation where my GA background was appreciated and I eventually managed to unfreeze my ATPL and have fun along the way!
Nowadays airlines sadly do not value single pilot experience, be it instructing or air taxi and many don't value multi crew turborprop experience. Particularly in the latter case, this is a serious mistake and very shortsighted. With the highly automated systems in aeroplanes these days, old fashioned stick 'n' rudder skills are not appreciated. In today's brave new world, the bottom line is king. The precedent has been set by the low cost carriers and others are scrambling to follow. Get adequately skilled labour cheaply and if possible transfer as much of the cost of training to the pilot. That is the way of things now.
I don't blame others for considering P2F schemes, especially when instructing, air taxi and other relevant flying experience have been more or less marginalised by most of the airlines, almost rendering them worthless! A few months back I wanted to try the airlines but at the end of the day I wasn't prepared to spend Ģ30k on one of the schemes, i had too much experience which was totally ignored.
It has never been harder to succeed in aviation and human nature dictates we will do whatever we have to survive/succeed even at the expense of others. That is a universal truth whether we like it or not. Those taking the moral high ground may well ultimately be disappointed and end up bitter and resentful.
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Air Asia Apparently short of 50+ captains as we speak. FO entry salary is $34k and they have a massive shortage especially since they plan to expand with 120 additional a/c in the coming 5 years
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Very good post KyleRB!
Deano777, yeah that includes transport, accommodation, and all the kit I needed, not food though! I didn't burn the Ģ13k I invested it in quality training for my future.
Deano777, yeah that includes transport, accommodation, and all the kit I needed, not food though! I didn't burn the Ģ13k I invested it in quality training for my future.
Last edited by Mi EASA Su EASA; 7th Nov 2010 at 18:29.
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It's a lovely warm, fuzzy thought to imagine a pilot shortage. But it won't happen....why I hear BALPA cry???? Well I'll tell you...
I met a very well spoken young chap (17) yesterday along with his very well spoken father.... anyhoo, he started explaining how he had finally decided to become a pilot and the conversation went a bit like this...
Me: How can I help?
Him: I'm going to start training next year at Oxford and I'm starting to look into buying a Type Rating as soon as I finish, what can you recommend?
Me: Integrated or Modular?
Him: Oh no Integrated of course.
Me (starting to feel a bit miffed now): Type Rating is a LONG way off....concentrate on your studies and get that shiny blue book first.
Him: Well yes of course but father wants me to do a Type Rating as soon as I graduate from Oxford.
Me: Don't go paying up front for a Type Rating full stop. But if you really must then atleast make sure you have a signed offer of employment in your hand.
Him: Well I thought I would get ahead of the game and start looking now.
Me (the red mist is dawning at this point): Ok, well what aircraft did you have in mind?
Him: Boeing 737
Me: Which one?
Him: Any!
Me (about to tear the guys head off): Ok so what if easyJet offer you a job?
Him: Well great. My first job.
Me: What about the now useless Boeing rating you've just shelled out for and now you're going to have to pay more money for an Airbus ticket!
Him: Well that's life.
I then smiled politely, wished him good luck and walked away before I threw my coffee in his face.
Sorry to inflict such a long winded dialogue on you folks but I was absolutely mortified. Utterly and completely shocked at what this guy had come out with. Until young toff's like this, spending daddies money are some how weeded out early on then what hope is there for the rest of us. And in summary, because of people like that there will NEVER be a pilot shortage.
In his "father's" defence, he actually seemed very pleasant but totally afraid to say no to his snotty little brat. Bit like the Northern factory owner and his brat daughter in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.
God help us.
Evening All
2W2R
I met a very well spoken young chap (17) yesterday along with his very well spoken father.... anyhoo, he started explaining how he had finally decided to become a pilot and the conversation went a bit like this...
Me: How can I help?
Him: I'm going to start training next year at Oxford and I'm starting to look into buying a Type Rating as soon as I finish, what can you recommend?
Me: Integrated or Modular?
Him: Oh no Integrated of course.
Me (starting to feel a bit miffed now): Type Rating is a LONG way off....concentrate on your studies and get that shiny blue book first.
Him: Well yes of course but father wants me to do a Type Rating as soon as I graduate from Oxford.
Me: Don't go paying up front for a Type Rating full stop. But if you really must then atleast make sure you have a signed offer of employment in your hand.
Him: Well I thought I would get ahead of the game and start looking now.
Me (the red mist is dawning at this point): Ok, well what aircraft did you have in mind?
Him: Boeing 737
Me: Which one?
Him: Any!
Me (about to tear the guys head off): Ok so what if easyJet offer you a job?
Him: Well great. My first job.
Me: What about the now useless Boeing rating you've just shelled out for and now you're going to have to pay more money for an Airbus ticket!
Him: Well that's life.
I then smiled politely, wished him good luck and walked away before I threw my coffee in his face.
Sorry to inflict such a long winded dialogue on you folks but I was absolutely mortified. Utterly and completely shocked at what this guy had come out with. Until young toff's like this, spending daddies money are some how weeded out early on then what hope is there for the rest of us. And in summary, because of people like that there will NEVER be a pilot shortage.
In his "father's" defence, he actually seemed very pleasant but totally afraid to say no to his snotty little brat. Bit like the Northern factory owner and his brat daughter in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.
God help us.
Evening All
2W2R
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Paying for lots of training!
I have been reading the forums for a while and hav followed the SSTR / P2F debate a fair bit. At the end of the day its a free world and a free market. Being a pilot is about the most desirable job in the world and a lotta people are willing to give damned near anything to get it. Just for a minute suppose that investing in pilot training was like investing an a business sector... say metals. Would you spend 1 million pounds investing in specialist machinery to extract metals knowing full well that 500 other people have also recently seen this opportunity and will be doing the exact same thing. I'm guessing you wouldn't as you would realise that excess supply would mean - limited opportunities, marginal to poor returns on your investment and at worst no opportunities at all and 0 return on your investment. In pure rational economic terms you would say "Uh uh no way thanks" and find somewhere else to spend your money.
It strikes me that for te majority of the time the above effectively describes the job market for would be pilots. However, training to be a pilot is not investing in plant and machinery to dig up metals for pure economic benefit. Training as a pilot has intrinsic value as it is perceived to be an ace career with glamour and high potential earnings. As a result people training to be pilots will do nearly anything to out compete their fellow rivals in their quest to become a pilot, be that SSTR, P2F spending years instructing / touring Africa looking for jobs. At the end of the day if loads of people weren't desperate to be pilots, none of these services / schemes would exist as no one would pay for their training and certainly no one would consider paying for their own TR.
Its a free world and it would seem that investing in pilot training is apretty dodgy investment most of the time yet people continue to do it (Myself included!)
It strikes me that for te majority of the time the above effectively describes the job market for would be pilots. However, training to be a pilot is not investing in plant and machinery to dig up metals for pure economic benefit. Training as a pilot has intrinsic value as it is perceived to be an ace career with glamour and high potential earnings. As a result people training to be pilots will do nearly anything to out compete their fellow rivals in their quest to become a pilot, be that SSTR, P2F spending years instructing / touring Africa looking for jobs. At the end of the day if loads of people weren't desperate to be pilots, none of these services / schemes would exist as no one would pay for their training and certainly no one would consider paying for their own TR.
Its a free world and it would seem that investing in pilot training is apretty dodgy investment most of the time yet people continue to do it (Myself included!
)
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So what is BALPA saying?..
Where in that article did they say they tried to hire from the pool of qualified pilots?
Sounds like the hiring shortage is just a shortage of kids with $50k to buy a seat on an airline.
Where in that article did they say they tried to hire from the pool of qualified pilots?
Sounds like the hiring shortage is just a shortage of kids with $50k to buy a seat on an airline.
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KyleRB, excellent post. Sadly, I think you are right when you said that you think P2F is here to stay. It will take a serious shift in legislation or something else to make it stop. For example, in FAA land, there is only really one real Pay for Job outfit, and that is Gulfstream International. In the US, there are many who oppose this outfit and their ĻhiringĻof students who paid a tuition to get there. Fortunately, new legislation in the US is going to require 1500hrs for a pilot to get to the right seat of a scheduled airline operation. This will most likely kill the P2F operation in the US, at least that is what many are hoping. Gulfstream International just declared bankruptcy... youīd think that an airline that has pilots paying to be there would do better than that. The biggest opponents to the 1500 hr rule in the US... the airlines, thatīs right, because they wonīt have thousands of easy and willing candidates lined up at the door for bottom wages and crappy T&Cīs, and it will affect the airlinesī bottom line. Good, I say, perhaps things will take a turn for the better.
Speaking about money, I think another stimulus that has aided the success of P2F is the availability of easy loans. Maybe this economic crisis isnīt such a bad thing afterall. If people canīt readily get a loan, the P2F pool will dry up, or maybe thatīs wishful thinking.
2 White 2 Red, I liked your post, very entertaining to read, however Iīve had a similar experience at Gatwick when getting a medical and chatting up a couple of other guys. One fellow said he didnīt care how much he got paid as long as he got paid to fly, and even joked and said Ļone quid? ... ok!Ļ I almsot wanted to smack him and ask him if he had any self worth! Another one seemed deadset to fly for Ryanair and he hadnīt even started his training. I paid for all my training in cash, without a loan. It took me awhile but I still got it done debt free. I can live comfortably for awhile until I find a job. I quit an excellent paying job with job security and a guaranteed pension after 20 years to follow a dream, but Iīll go back to that desk job before I value my self so low that I would pay for a flying job. I can sympathise with someone who wants to get ahead of the next guy, it is human nature, but ask yourself how much you are worth? Are you worth so little as a professional that you would rather pay to have that label? Oh well, that argument is futile, like I said, unless there is some huge change in legislation, I too fear that P2F/PFJ is here to stay.
Speaking about money, I think another stimulus that has aided the success of P2F is the availability of easy loans. Maybe this economic crisis isnīt such a bad thing afterall. If people canīt readily get a loan, the P2F pool will dry up, or maybe thatīs wishful thinking.
2 White 2 Red, I liked your post, very entertaining to read, however Iīve had a similar experience at Gatwick when getting a medical and chatting up a couple of other guys. One fellow said he didnīt care how much he got paid as long as he got paid to fly, and even joked and said Ļone quid? ... ok!Ļ I almsot wanted to smack him and ask him if he had any self worth! Another one seemed deadset to fly for Ryanair and he hadnīt even started his training. I paid for all my training in cash, without a loan. It took me awhile but I still got it done debt free. I can live comfortably for awhile until I find a job. I quit an excellent paying job with job security and a guaranteed pension after 20 years to follow a dream, but Iīll go back to that desk job before I value my self so low that I would pay for a flying job. I can sympathise with someone who wants to get ahead of the next guy, it is human nature, but ask yourself how much you are worth? Are you worth so little as a professional that you would rather pay to have that label? Oh well, that argument is futile, like I said, unless there is some huge change in legislation, I too fear that P2F/PFJ is here to stay.
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No Shortage
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Flight...rch%202010.pdf
The above link tells us that in 2009/10 the CAA issued
1,287 Commercial Licences
Rumours of a shortage may be premature
The above link tells us that in 2009/10 the CAA issued
1,287 Commercial Licences
Rumours of a shortage may be premature