Industrial Action at Flybe?
Join Date: Nov 2004
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I recently had a discussion with a PBM and TRE about this offer... I soon realised they were trying to sell it to me. They weren't listening to my side and seemed like they were reading a brief to me.
The arguments were weak, but they actually seemed to believe it all!
I hope our weaker-willed colleagues don't fall for it.
The arguments were weak, but they actually seemed to believe it all!
I hope our weaker-willed colleagues don't fall for it.
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In the current economic situation it is probably all that can be expected.
The payment of holiday pay is subject to an action currently in the European court, which is ongoing and no judgment as yet. That the company will now include this unilaterally is good.
Lates to earlies will be gone in one fell swoop for the larger bases,
the smaller bases maybe not as good, but 50% is still good.
The problem for the naysayers is what happens next, this is the
companies final offer, there will be no further negotiation.
Remember we are over crewed, if the company wanted they could cut back on crew numbers.
Its a 3 year deal, when the next negotiations start in 3 years time we will be a mainly jet airline and so can seek a better deal then, now is not the time to do that.
The sensible and practical vote is yes.
The payment of holiday pay is subject to an action currently in the European court, which is ongoing and no judgment as yet. That the company will now include this unilaterally is good.
Lates to earlies will be gone in one fell swoop for the larger bases,
the smaller bases maybe not as good, but 50% is still good.
The problem for the naysayers is what happens next, this is the
companies final offer, there will be no further negotiation.
Remember we are over crewed, if the company wanted they could cut back on crew numbers.
Its a 3 year deal, when the next negotiations start in 3 years time we will be a mainly jet airline and so can seek a better deal then, now is not the time to do that.
The sensible and practical vote is yes.
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Flyingbed! I think I know who you are!
AND NO LATES TO EARLIES WILL NOT DISSAPEAR OVERNIGHT!
They state final offer, but would be commercial suicide if it really is!
NEVER EVER Take the first offer!!!! Unless its fair! I hope people vote for what they think is fair!
O and read the small print, next negotiation 2016, read 2018!!!!
AND NO LATES TO EARLIES WILL NOT DISSAPEAR OVERNIGHT!
They state final offer, but would be commercial suicide if it really is!
NEVER EVER Take the first offer!!!! Unless its fair! I hope people vote for what they think is fair!
O and read the small print, next negotiation 2016, read 2018!!!!
Join Date: Jan 2011
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Flyingbed,
Lets be clear about the reality of what we being asked to commit to. The new scheduling agreement would be a 5 year deal, not 3. The chances of it remaining fit for purpose in that timescale are remote, especially given the pending changes in FTL’s. We will be voting on a single package linked to both pay and scheduling. Consequently we will be making a significantly longer and riskier commitment than your post suggests.
Lets be clear about the reality of what we being asked to commit to. The new scheduling agreement would be a 5 year deal, not 3. The chances of it remaining fit for purpose in that timescale are remote, especially given the pending changes in FTL’s. We will be voting on a single package linked to both pay and scheduling. Consequently we will be making a significantly longer and riskier commitment than your post suggests.
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I agree with all the points listed above. I think anyone with a brain can see that this is a half hearted offer from the company, which by the way was to be expected. Jim doesn't want to spend money if he doesn't have to. No business man would. Always start bartering at a low level. Everyone knows that. Low costs makes a lean mean money making machine which is the goal. It isn't good enough thou. They can afford to do more for us and we would not be unreasonable to ask for it given the companies success, comparable industry standards and fair remuneration for what we do (the principal of the matter). Anybody voting FOR this is quite simply mental! It is a poor offer and as usual full of untruths or rather cleverly worded/constructed figures to hide the inadequacies of the offer, in short, trying to pull the wool over our eyes. So in the spirit of bartering we must decline and be prepared to walk away.
So what can WE do about this to ensure that everyone with BALPA voting rights in Flybe sees the offer for what it is?
As BALPA say, the only way we will achieve anything more from the company is by "demonstrating solid industrial strength". I suggest we all spread the word at work and share the opinions voiced here in the cockpit. Why not actively point people to this thread? We all have i phones (other types of smart phones will do too!) to use on turn arounds to show people this stuff!! All thoughts are on here and I think this gives a fair representation of the offer.
Remember the other important points to pass on:
The company is renowned for holding out till the very last hour in any negotiations. They won't budge until they see that they are backed into a corner. This has been proved time and time again.
You have nothing to loose by endorsing any industrial action. NOTHING! You will still get a command, you will still be able to get anther job, you will still be treated in exactly the same way by the likes of management, rostering and crewing.
One last thing. Jim if you are reading this, look after us and remunerate us to an acceptable level and engage in a program of improving our lifestyle, we will reward you in positive advertising to friends family and others in the industry, high levels of customer service for those that pay all our wages, as much fuel saving as you desire, pride in our company and work, goodwill in getting the job done and a happy environment. If you do not we will all loose.
So what can WE do about this to ensure that everyone with BALPA voting rights in Flybe sees the offer for what it is?
As BALPA say, the only way we will achieve anything more from the company is by "demonstrating solid industrial strength". I suggest we all spread the word at work and share the opinions voiced here in the cockpit. Why not actively point people to this thread? We all have i phones (other types of smart phones will do too!) to use on turn arounds to show people this stuff!! All thoughts are on here and I think this gives a fair representation of the offer.
Remember the other important points to pass on:
The company is renowned for holding out till the very last hour in any negotiations. They won't budge until they see that they are backed into a corner. This has been proved time and time again.
You have nothing to loose by endorsing any industrial action. NOTHING! You will still get a command, you will still be able to get anther job, you will still be treated in exactly the same way by the likes of management, rostering and crewing.
One last thing. Jim if you are reading this, look after us and remunerate us to an acceptable level and engage in a program of improving our lifestyle, we will reward you in positive advertising to friends family and others in the industry, high levels of customer service for those that pay all our wages, as much fuel saving as you desire, pride in our company and work, goodwill in getting the job done and a happy environment. If you do not we will all loose.
Join Date: Feb 2003
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One last thing. Jim if you are reading this, look after us and remunerate us to an acceptable level and engage in a program of improving our lifestyle, we will reward you in positive advertising to friends family and others in the industry, high levels of customer service for those that pay all our wages, as much fuel saving as you desire, pride in our company and work, goodwill in getting the job done and a happy environment. If you do not we will all loose
normally and you all take it but that will fix it!
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Ok, parking the pay issue and the smoke and mirrors/spin about fixing lates/earlies, everyone needs to know that accepting this and locking in the scheduling agreement for 5 years will mean when/if Subpart Q comes is implemented, THE COMPANY CAN MAKE US WORK 40% HARDER DAILY AND NOT HAVE TO PAY US A PENNY FOR IT. Thinks about how tired you are in the summer anyway. Imagine that with 7.5 hours min rest added in. If anyone thinks the company aren't salivating over this then they are stupid and naiive. There won't be a damned thing we can do about it, because some guys decided they really needed a £600 (before tax) holiday pay bribe, which they'll probably have to give us anyway.
Flyingbed, I don't think the dark sinister hints at redundancy that have kept us heads bowed till now will wash much anymore. If we're overcrewed now it's because we're needed for expansion plans. Flybe wouldn't carry extra fat just to be kind to us, I have seen no evidence of such altruism at this company! A redundancy program would be costly in itself. To be honest if things carry on going the way they are and the industry changes this job the way they want to then I'll be getting out anyway, and I'm not the only one. The risk/responsibility/reward ratios are too high already.
Flyingbed, I don't think the dark sinister hints at redundancy that have kept us heads bowed till now will wash much anymore. If we're overcrewed now it's because we're needed for expansion plans. Flybe wouldn't carry extra fat just to be kind to us, I have seen no evidence of such altruism at this company! A redundancy program would be costly in itself. To be honest if things carry on going the way they are and the industry changes this job the way they want to then I'll be getting out anyway, and I'm not the only one. The risk/responsibility/reward ratios are too high already.
Join Date: Nov 2010
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sk8erboi,
your anti flybe crew rhetoric continues unabated.
Perhaps you're a little bitter in Loganair following the franchise agreement?
Never mind, you can always watch the E195 from your flightdeck at your ABZ base whilst composing your next anti flybe post.................
Jealous??
your anti flybe crew rhetoric continues unabated.
Perhaps you're a little bitter in Loganair following the franchise agreement?
Never mind, you can always watch the E195 from your flightdeck at your ABZ base whilst composing your next anti flybe post.................
Jealous??
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flyingbed your response is typical of flybe - draw things out and string things along so nothing ever happens.
Three years ago the time to make improvements was now, now it's three years from now, in three years it'll be three years from then - jam tomorrow, but in flybe tomorrow never comes - so I say strike now for jam today!
Three years ago the time to make improvements was now, now it's three years from now, in three years it'll be three years from then - jam tomorrow, but in flybe tomorrow never comes - so I say strike now for jam today!
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Flyingbed,
have you nothing better to do in Flight Ops then post on here?
Is that how Flight Ops managers are earning their recent 9% pay rise??
If the company is carrying any extra crew, it is because it knows that it will lose a lot of pilots as soon as the upturn arrives. The company cannot afford to lose pilots - extra fat in the system now will allow flights to be crewed (via nightstops if necessary) when the pilot resignations begin.
have you nothing better to do in Flight Ops then post on here?
Is that how Flight Ops managers are earning their recent 9% pay rise??
If the company is carrying any extra crew, it is because it knows that it will lose a lot of pilots as soon as the upturn arrives. The company cannot afford to lose pilots - extra fat in the system now will allow flights to be crewed (via nightstops if necessary) when the pilot resignations begin.
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Six-sixty:
EXACTLY RIGHT!!
When/if Subpart Q comes is implemented, THE COMPANY CAN MAKE US WORK 40% HARDER DAILY AND NOT HAVE TO PAY US A PENNY FOR IT. Thinks about how tired you are in the summer anyway. Imagine that with 7.5 hours min rest added in. If anyone thinks the company aren't salivating over this then they are stupid and naiive. There won't be a damned thing we can do about it, because some guys decided they really needed a £600 (before tax) holiday pay bribe, which they'll probably have to give us anyway.
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Doodle
I'd worry about EASA FTL when it arrives mate, i waited for sub part Q for donkeys years, more meetings in BRU than i've had hot dinners, loads of whining pilots - what happend - zilch.
Yes EASA has more relaxed limits but your SMS/FRMS/Union will in theory pick it up should EASA FTL ever happen. Yeah a few rogue airlines will do their best to interpret it in their own way and flogg their pilots to death but i suspect they won't be UK Airlines (sorry G reg). The 2 worst rules in CAP371 are the early / late rules and factorisation on long haul. Ezy have proved that consecutive earlies are better than early/late mixes (compenstated by days off and protected by FRMS). Yeah you chaps / chapesses might not like it but it's what happens in the street from check in staff, to the milkman to commuters going to work every day.
I'd worry about EASA FTL when it arrives mate, i waited for sub part Q for donkeys years, more meetings in BRU than i've had hot dinners, loads of whining pilots - what happend - zilch.
Yes EASA has more relaxed limits but your SMS/FRMS/Union will in theory pick it up should EASA FTL ever happen. Yeah a few rogue airlines will do their best to interpret it in their own way and flogg their pilots to death but i suspect they won't be UK Airlines (sorry G reg). The 2 worst rules in CAP371 are the early / late rules and factorisation on long haul. Ezy have proved that consecutive earlies are better than early/late mixes (compenstated by days off and protected by FRMS). Yeah you chaps / chapesses might not like it but it's what happens in the street from check in staff, to the milkman to commuters going to work every day.
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I'll be adding my name to the long list of no's. I find it amazing that anyone could even consider this as a good deal. There are a few about in both the "yes" and "not sure" camps. I'll be asking them to have a good hard look at it and understand how little is set in stone and how many caveats have been written in.
A massive thanks to the CC on the hard work so far and I don't expect this process has ever been easy, but I am wondering why this is even going to a vote considering the results of the consultation document? I just hope BALPA members vote as strongly as the consultation suggests they will that we can hold our collective nerve.
Finally I was rather surprised at the level of cynicism employed in writing the company newsletter on the subject. Good points cherry-picked with the bad completely omited, massaging of figures and just far too much spin. I expected it to put the deal forward in as good a light as possible but it was at best misleading and at worse lying.
A massive thanks to the CC on the hard work so far and I don't expect this process has ever been easy, but I am wondering why this is even going to a vote considering the results of the consultation document? I just hope BALPA members vote as strongly as the consultation suggests they will that we can hold our collective nerve.
Finally I was rather surprised at the level of cynicism employed in writing the company newsletter on the subject. Good points cherry-picked with the bad completely omited, massaging of figures and just far too much spin. I expected it to put the deal forward in as good a light as possible but it was at best misleading and at worse lying.
Join Date: May 2001
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I not only drew a line in the sand, I crossed it. (And we have plenty of sand here) and got a 32% pay rise.
Add my virtual No vote too
Wishing you all the luck Don't let them grind you down
Add my virtual No vote too
Wishing you all the luck Don't let them grind you down
Join Date: Jul 2006
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This offer makes my bowels weep. I shed brown tears for us all. The weals on my back, under my eyes and all over my bank account all dictate a 'no' from me too.
And nowhere for us poor Windmill drivers to go.
And nowhere for us poor Windmill drivers to go.
So IAG (BA and Iberia) have a list of a dozen other airlines that they are looking to buy for the group.
What chance Flybe management are keeping expenditure as low as possible, so as to look as a good buy???
What chance Flybe management are keeping expenditure as low as possible, so as to look as a good buy???