Industrial Action at Flybe?
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Nothin at all. If they have agreed anything meagre like 2% per year for a 3 year deal then it's getting a big fat no from me. It is going to have to be pretty spectacular to tie us in for 3 years. I really dont understand why we have to wait to be told.
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Would the first year of a 3 year pay deal already have lapsed?
The deal we are striking now is expected to back date to April 2010, so the first anniversary is already looming.
I like the concept of a 3 year deal, we all know where we stand and it gives both sides time to breath before starting it all again when the time comes to renew.
The deal we are striking now is expected to back date to April 2010, so the first anniversary is already looming.
I like the concept of a 3 year deal, we all know where we stand and it gives both sides time to breath before starting it all again when the time comes to renew.
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Most likely lapsed yes. A 3 year deal would be good, but it depends on the content as I said above. If it is for a meagre amount of something like 2% then we have undernegotiated considering we are emerging from a recession and going into good times.
The other thing about having it backdated (and yes, we should have it backdated) is that many F/Os at the bottom end of the scale will lose out tax wise should they get a lump sum. Doesn't matter to captains as they already pay 40%.
The other thing about having it backdated (and yes, we should have it backdated) is that many F/Os at the bottom end of the scale will lose out tax wise should they get a lump sum. Doesn't matter to captains as they already pay 40%.
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I can't think how the lump sum arriving in a different tax year would affect anyone other those near the higher rate threshold?
I assume that anyone under £40k ish pa would still only pay BR? (unless of course BALPA manage to get us the 28% we deserve like the directors! We can but dream!)
I also feel that the duty pay should be tackled... put up to £2.50 or more... not the same meagre 2-6% = £1.99 ish? PAH!
now it's being taxed, earnings are LESS than 2 years ago!
I assume that anyone under £40k ish pa would still only pay BR? (unless of course BALPA manage to get us the 28% we deserve like the directors! We can but dream!)
I also feel that the duty pay should be tackled... put up to £2.50 or more... not the same meagre 2-6% = £1.99 ish? PAH!
now it's being taxed, earnings are LESS than 2 years ago!
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Duty pay hasn't been changed for years and years I understand. It wasn't taxed previously either. If it is supposed to be for incidental sustenance during a flying day then it is due a hefty increase if you consider what a sandwich / drink costs compared to several years ago.
Also the crew food problem is now fixed with the imminent introduction of a pot noodle. Okay, some may say it's a step in the right direction as now you can get some hot food on the dash, but for me I think I may already be getting enough MSG and e-numbers. Just strikes of minimum effort.
Also the crew food problem is now fixed with the imminent introduction of a pot noodle. Okay, some may say it's a step in the right direction as now you can get some hot food on the dash, but for me I think I may already be getting enough MSG and e-numbers. Just strikes of minimum effort.
Sad to see that you guys are suffering from the same indignities as we are in EZY. As you will be aware EZY has been a public shareholder company for some time and for us mere mortals this has meant a year on year devaluation of our renumeration and conditions. As sure as day follows night you will be reminded almost daily of the need to cut costs and make savings in every department in order to maintain a competitive edge. At the same time your mid and top end managers will be rewarded with ever increasing bonuses and share packages, some of obscene proportions, for making these savings and thus increasing shareholder value. The AMB, who award themselves even bigger packages, then tend, not surprisingly, to "move on to new challenges" at an alarmingly high rate only to be followed by a replacement with a raft of new ideas. The onslaught is relentless for us so I would suggest that you guys dig your heels in and don't allow the gold diggers to get an early foot hold. Do your management and AMB eat pot noodles ?
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Originally Posted by Salsaboy
I can't think how the lump sum arriving in a different tax year would affect anyone other those near the higher rate threshold?
I assume that anyone under £40k ish pa would still only pay BR?
I assume that anyone under £40k ish pa would still only pay BR?
That would be correct if we got paid annually but we don't. Your tax is worked out monthly pro rata for the year, i.e. Whatever you get paid in the month is multiplied by 12, you then pay tax accordingly.
If your gross for January is £2500, this is multiplied by 12 (£30k) so it keeps you under the higher rate (of £36k I think it is now).
If you earn £3500 in the month this will equate to £42000 in the year, so £6k over the top end. £36,000 divided by 12 is obviously £3,000. So £500 of your monthy wage will be taxed at 40%.
If you added a £1500 backdate to your monthly wage then a fair chunk of it will be taxed at 40%. Because you should have received the payrise in small portions per month (keeping it under the top end rate) if you are earning anywhere near £3,000 per month now then all of the backdated pay will be taxed at 40%. That equates to a few hundred pounds out of pocket.
Unless of course, the taxman will be informed it is backdated pay and tax it as it should have been taxed originally. I doubt it though.
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Simple old payroll systems would calculate it that way yes, but these days it should be simple enough to calculate it at source as a backdated annual increment as it is... However, if it is done incorrectly (as we can expect!) then we can sort it directly with the inland revenue, resulting in a cheque for the overpayment(which won't be a huge amount) but worst case with an adjusted tax code for the subsequent year... Far from ideal but we shouldn't end up out of pocket.
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Salsaboy.
Old pay system or not, if the inland revenue sees this payment as a pure lump sum then you will be overtaxed. I am not sure, or up to speed enough with the system to know if the tax man is even allowed to differentiate between back dated pay and a lump sum.
Old pay system or not, if the inland revenue sees this payment as a pure lump sum then you will be overtaxed. I am not sure, or up to speed enough with the system to know if the tax man is even allowed to differentiate between back dated pay and a lump sum.
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Its not 5 or 6%, which in itself is far less than it should be (circa 15% year 1 then another 5% every year for 5 years and we may just be on par).
Seemingly the big focus of discussion was on the lates to earlies issue. Frankly, in my opinion, this should very much have been a second discussion and probably concerns less the 10% of the pilot workforce, the other 90% would rather get paid properly first for the way we work now surely i.e like our friends in other airlines, and deal with the shift roster pattern later.
If the talk is of a 3 year deal then we are pi55ing in the wind with a 6% deal as this will be out dated and below the cost of living in 6 months anyway.
A post on 'flyingbe' indicates that the interest rates are forecast to rise to 8% soon. I hope he's wrong because Im screwed on this meagre salary.
Seemingly the big focus of discussion was on the lates to earlies issue. Frankly, in my opinion, this should very much have been a second discussion and probably concerns less the 10% of the pilot workforce, the other 90% would rather get paid properly first for the way we work now surely i.e like our friends in other airlines, and deal with the shift roster pattern later.
If the talk is of a 3 year deal then we are pi55ing in the wind with a 6% deal as this will be out dated and below the cost of living in 6 months anyway.
A post on 'flyingbe' indicates that the interest rates are forecast to rise to 8% soon. I hope he's wrong because Im screwed on this meagre salary.
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Virga - agree with you about pay: 15% year 1 and 5% subsequently would be about right to start raising pay from it's currently dismal levels towards something approaching industry norms.
However lifestyle is important too;though I think that the total number of days off - we get significantly less than most others, and the 108 day off rule is why we get so many pointless make-work standbys - is more important than lates to earlies.
Unless the agreement makes substantial progress towards addressing the above aspirations I'll vote against it when we ballot, and judging by the results of the pole on the flyingbee web site so will others.
Time for the company to stop taking the piss.
Time to stand up, instead of keeping bending over and taking it.
Time to strike.
However lifestyle is important too;though I think that the total number of days off - we get significantly less than most others, and the 108 day off rule is why we get so many pointless make-work standbys - is more important than lates to earlies.
Unless the agreement makes substantial progress towards addressing the above aspirations I'll vote against it when we ballot, and judging by the results of the pole on the flyingbee web site so will others.
Time for the company to stop taking the piss.
Time to stand up, instead of keeping bending over and taking it.
Time to strike.
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Chaps, I've heard on the grapevine that your offer will be weighted more towards lifesyle improvement (that'll make a change then) than pay rise. I've heard that the offer won't be far away from the original 2%.
What on earth are Balpa asking for? 5% and what? Or lifestyle improvement and what? Or maybe they're only negotiating for one!
Should they not be asking for implementation of Bluesky rostering AND a decent - NOT 5% - payrise? As Virga said a minimum of 15% should be awarded but at the expense of what? I hope nothing.
Ok, go on strike, or even just threaten it, but it seems that all you're going to get is one and not the other.
I hope, for all your sakes, that you get both. Don't let them screw you over again.
What on earth are Balpa asking for? 5% and what? Or lifestyle improvement and what? Or maybe they're only negotiating for one!
Should they not be asking for implementation of Bluesky rostering AND a decent - NOT 5% - payrise? As Virga said a minimum of 15% should be awarded but at the expense of what? I hope nothing.
Ok, go on strike, or even just threaten it, but it seems that all you're going to get is one and not the other.
I hope, for all your sakes, that you get both. Don't let them screw you over again.
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It doesn't matter whether you strike or work to rule as both are management 'attention getters'
Lets be realists, Flybe pilots have long been thought of by Exeter as an endless source of good will who lack the stomach it takes to strike.
There are two problems at hand here (actually loads but these two are on my mind)...
1 The problem of WHO works for Flybe and..
2 Who's job is it to defend the rights of Flybe pilots and co-ordinate strike action / 'work to rule' if necessary
Problem 1 Broadly speaking there are 3 types of Flybe pilot. Starters, enders and those who live close to a regional base and want a quiet life. Starters are just happy for a job, previously at flight school they look out at the world and see a lot of people who'd like to be in their shoes, they also know that this is the first stepping stone to that eventual A380 LHS (ok bit of a hyperbole but you get the idea) - net result is that UNDERSTANDABLY this fraternity of Flybe pilot just want to keep their head down, wait for sunnier times and thus plot their escape. Net result don't expect these guys to lead from the front re any industrial action or wtr.
Enders - We all know them, ex BA, Cathay etc who most likely retired at 55 and looked for a cushy direct entry LHS somewhere in Blighty. They are already living off their company pension and are looking to spend 5 years or so putting most of their earnings into another pension scheme to make life after 60/65 just that bit sweeter - cant blame them, I'd do it myself. They lie low, they join in the flight deck 'management slaggin' banter but again don't expect these guys to lead from the front re any industrial action or wtr - they're already contemplating the shade of leather upholstery aboard their 50ft Sunseeker in 5/4/3/2/1 years time.
And so to the last group - the ladies and gents who live close to EXT, SOU, IOM, JER, GUR, NCL, INV etc who arent fussed by ending up in a legacy carrier or wide body charter operation - just want to do a days toil on the dash, drive only 20 minutes to work and very much like the small base feel where everybody knows everyone - cool, I've no problem with that. But again, if I were in an organisation where I intended to spend a decent portion of if not all of my career I probably wouldn't be the first person to stick my head above the parapet and yell 'Oi Jimbo, anyone ever tell you you're a class A mug and I say we all strike - by the way see you at the christmas knees up down the Frog and Duck.' So again - don't expect these guys to lead from the front re any industrial action or wtr.
So to problem 2 - if no one group is gonna step forward, who's job is it to negotiate until the 11th hour and then initiate industrial action (if voted to do so)? Is that BALPA I hear someone say. Too bloody right - trouble is they're more than happy to take a percentage of all our pay (I don't work for Flybe btw) but also happy for all of you to take it up the backside when it comes time to share the wealth now that Flybe has finally made good on its stock market aspirations. I compare BALPA in this particular matter to Neville Chamberlain - spineless with an eagerness to placate those who need to be brought to task.
BTW - I hope the armchair critics among you will recognise that I have not proposed an answer to the troubles at Flybe. Truth is I dont know what to do. But I would say that withdrawing your BALPA subs would certainly be worth considering. They after all are meant to be the ones who put up with all the sh*t so you dont have to - trouble is so far they've done a lot of talking but basically bugger all.
Lets be realists, Flybe pilots have long been thought of by Exeter as an endless source of good will who lack the stomach it takes to strike.
There are two problems at hand here (actually loads but these two are on my mind)...
1 The problem of WHO works for Flybe and..
2 Who's job is it to defend the rights of Flybe pilots and co-ordinate strike action / 'work to rule' if necessary
Problem 1 Broadly speaking there are 3 types of Flybe pilot. Starters, enders and those who live close to a regional base and want a quiet life. Starters are just happy for a job, previously at flight school they look out at the world and see a lot of people who'd like to be in their shoes, they also know that this is the first stepping stone to that eventual A380 LHS (ok bit of a hyperbole but you get the idea) - net result is that UNDERSTANDABLY this fraternity of Flybe pilot just want to keep their head down, wait for sunnier times and thus plot their escape. Net result don't expect these guys to lead from the front re any industrial action or wtr.
Enders - We all know them, ex BA, Cathay etc who most likely retired at 55 and looked for a cushy direct entry LHS somewhere in Blighty. They are already living off their company pension and are looking to spend 5 years or so putting most of their earnings into another pension scheme to make life after 60/65 just that bit sweeter - cant blame them, I'd do it myself. They lie low, they join in the flight deck 'management slaggin' banter but again don't expect these guys to lead from the front re any industrial action or wtr - they're already contemplating the shade of leather upholstery aboard their 50ft Sunseeker in 5/4/3/2/1 years time.
And so to the last group - the ladies and gents who live close to EXT, SOU, IOM, JER, GUR, NCL, INV etc who arent fussed by ending up in a legacy carrier or wide body charter operation - just want to do a days toil on the dash, drive only 20 minutes to work and very much like the small base feel where everybody knows everyone - cool, I've no problem with that. But again, if I were in an organisation where I intended to spend a decent portion of if not all of my career I probably wouldn't be the first person to stick my head above the parapet and yell 'Oi Jimbo, anyone ever tell you you're a class A mug and I say we all strike - by the way see you at the christmas knees up down the Frog and Duck.' So again - don't expect these guys to lead from the front re any industrial action or wtr.
So to problem 2 - if no one group is gonna step forward, who's job is it to negotiate until the 11th hour and then initiate industrial action (if voted to do so)? Is that BALPA I hear someone say. Too bloody right - trouble is they're more than happy to take a percentage of all our pay (I don't work for Flybe btw) but also happy for all of you to take it up the backside when it comes time to share the wealth now that Flybe has finally made good on its stock market aspirations. I compare BALPA in this particular matter to Neville Chamberlain - spineless with an eagerness to placate those who need to be brought to task.
BTW - I hope the armchair critics among you will recognise that I have not proposed an answer to the troubles at Flybe. Truth is I dont know what to do. But I would say that withdrawing your BALPA subs would certainly be worth considering. They after all are meant to be the ones who put up with all the sh*t so you dont have to - trouble is so far they've done a lot of talking but basically bugger all.
Last edited by Chief Brody; 6th Jan 2011 at 15:09.
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BALPA are the solution, not the problem
CB I do think there is some merit in your analysis above and there are some who want to keep their heads down for sure. However I really do think the worm has finally turned with the release of the information showing that:
Our CEO earns more than Willie Walsh!!
JF has been lent £1 million interest free and with no repayment date to buy a Knightsbridge apartment
The Directors seem to have awarded themselves bonuses of £250 000 to £500 000 each as a pat on the back for achieving flotation.
Directors pay increased 28% last year
In addition due to the recession more flight crew than ever have had to stay with Flybe so there are a whole load of experienced FO's with little chance of command/progression who want to see a big improvement in T's and C's - this bunch never expected to still be here and are getting more disillusioned by the day. There's also a bunch of 30's 40's Captains raising families and struggling and wondering why they're on £50-£60k and their mate in Easyjet is on £110k. These two groups make up a large percentage of the pilot community and they never existed in such numbers before. Both need more disposable income and more time off. Both are determined to get it and if a strike is necessary so be it...
The company froze pay last year and offered 2% rise this year to a workforce who work more days than any other UK airline for about 70% of other airline's pay. The old argument that the company used that they are a little struggling airline who couldn't afford to pay people properly simply won't wash anymore with the news that there's cash sloshing around so readily at the top.
Clearly the float was excellent news for the Directors, but I actually think it's proved even better news for the workers who now have the information they need to win the argument...
People are extremely angry here and know for sure now they have actually been exploited in recent years on pay and rostering. There will be a industrial action unless serious progress is made on pay and lifestyle this time - there is a very high level of bitterness in the crewrooms every day directed against management.
Cancelling BALPA subs won't help at all, Only BALPA can negotiate with management properly, only BALPA can ballot for industrial action, only BALPA cares about improving worker conditions here - if you don't back them now then don't moan next time you get shafted by Exeter...
Our CEO earns more than Willie Walsh!!
JF has been lent £1 million interest free and with no repayment date to buy a Knightsbridge apartment
The Directors seem to have awarded themselves bonuses of £250 000 to £500 000 each as a pat on the back for achieving flotation.
Directors pay increased 28% last year
In addition due to the recession more flight crew than ever have had to stay with Flybe so there are a whole load of experienced FO's with little chance of command/progression who want to see a big improvement in T's and C's - this bunch never expected to still be here and are getting more disillusioned by the day. There's also a bunch of 30's 40's Captains raising families and struggling and wondering why they're on £50-£60k and their mate in Easyjet is on £110k. These two groups make up a large percentage of the pilot community and they never existed in such numbers before. Both need more disposable income and more time off. Both are determined to get it and if a strike is necessary so be it...
The company froze pay last year and offered 2% rise this year to a workforce who work more days than any other UK airline for about 70% of other airline's pay. The old argument that the company used that they are a little struggling airline who couldn't afford to pay people properly simply won't wash anymore with the news that there's cash sloshing around so readily at the top.
Clearly the float was excellent news for the Directors, but I actually think it's proved even better news for the workers who now have the information they need to win the argument...
People are extremely angry here and know for sure now they have actually been exploited in recent years on pay and rostering. There will be a industrial action unless serious progress is made on pay and lifestyle this time - there is a very high level of bitterness in the crewrooms every day directed against management.
Cancelling BALPA subs won't help at all, Only BALPA can negotiate with management properly, only BALPA can ballot for industrial action, only BALPA cares about improving worker conditions here - if you don't back them now then don't moan next time you get shafted by Exeter...
Last edited by Desk-pilot; 6th Jan 2011 at 17:15.
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Absolutely...
If we want to show strength as a group we need as many as possible to JOIN NOW... pay your subs... see how we get on... if you're not happy with what we get, THEN leave... for the sake of 2 or 3 months membership it might make the difference... if the company see that it's EVERY pilot (or as close to that as possible) then we're more likely to get somewhere.
Encourage as many non-members to join. If you leave now then we all get screwed again!
If we want to show strength as a group we need as many as possible to JOIN NOW... pay your subs... see how we get on... if you're not happy with what we get, THEN leave... for the sake of 2 or 3 months membership it might make the difference... if the company see that it's EVERY pilot (or as close to that as possible) then we're more likely to get somewhere.
Encourage as many non-members to join. If you leave now then we all get screwed again!