Ryanair exodus, what is the plan?
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Flylo head office
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jack are you saying that all FR flight crew are wreckless and don't care about safety.... Just getting the aircraft on the ground??? Plus as it was at fl410 it would be fair to say it was light that coupled with the route into poland you normally (or when I use to fly there) get continuous descent, speed break out flight level change 320knts you'll get more than 3000ft/min.... and the speedbrake hasnt been touched! Plus it say landing configuration by 1050ft (+3nm from what they thought was a threshold) sp gear was probably down by 4nm?? (as per SOP).
And lastly I've never seen 300knts achieved in landing configuration and it doesn't say anywhere that it was 2300fpm below 1000ft
And lastly I've never seen 300knts achieved in landing configuration and it doesn't say anywhere that it was 2300fpm below 1000ft
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: London
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jackbauer - what on earth are you talking about? This is absolutely nothing to do with a Ryanair employee / contractor exodus - but FL410 to 250ft is not what was being questioned. As has been made clear to you by other more informed posters, that is not unsafe. Nowhere does it say that they had a high rate of descent in the latter stages of the approach. Where they screwed up was continuing the approach without being visual with the runway which was a serious and dangerous decision.
But the rate of descent from FL410 and unstable approach you continue to go on about is nothing to do with the investigation.
Please get back on topic and if you've got an issue with the way Ryanair aircraft are flown, raise a new thread. With 1400+ flights per day, the odd cock up does happen. No excuses for their poor decision making though.
But the rate of descent from FL410 and unstable approach you continue to go on about is nothing to do with the investigation.
Please get back on topic and if you've got an issue with the way Ryanair aircraft are flown, raise a new thread. With 1400+ flights per day, the odd cock up does happen. No excuses for their poor decision making though.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Unsettled
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JB - you're kidding right? I'm not even sure you're worthy of a reply, but I'll fire one at you anyway.
My comment meant, that over the course of a decent from FL410 to 0 you could easily achieve an average of 2300' per min ROD, even flying economy speeds.
You clearly don't fly. It is not OK to fly idle decent approaches (until adding power once in full landing config as I previously said).... ITS IDEAL!!!
Why does an aircraft work out a top of decent automatically for you? Why is this point where it is? I'll let you think about it.
I say again- back to topic....please!
My comment meant, that over the course of a decent from FL410 to 0 you could easily achieve an average of 2300' per min ROD, even flying economy speeds.
You clearly don't fly. It is not OK to fly idle decent approaches (until adding power once in full landing config as I previously said).... ITS IDEAL!!!
Why does an aircraft work out a top of decent automatically for you? Why is this point where it is? I'll let you think about it.
I say again- back to topic....please!
Jack,
The Polish Report said, amongst a few impressive nuggets of nonsense:-
My italics. Note there is no mention of the descent.
The decent rate prior to FL100 is irrelevant because we don't know whether ATC gave continuous descent, but in the event it averaged at 2300 fpm. That's normal. According to the Report, below FL100 speed was below 250 kts and ROD 1400 fpm until flap extension at the normal altitude and speed.
The cause of this serious incident was a visual approach performed into the rising sun without proper visual reference and an FO who probably did not question what the CPT was doing due to a steep cockpit experience gradient. Articles in Flightglobal and in other places have focused on the cockpit gradient, not the ROD...
Whilst there are plenty of reasons to get the hell out of Ryanair, you can't blame the company culture for this event. Ryanair has developed comprehensive SOPs to reduce the chances of this type of brainfart from happening and I dare say this incident is no more or less likely to occur at any other airline.
The Polish Report said, amongst a few impressive nuggets of nonsense:-
3.2. Causes of the serious air incident:
1. Probably inadequate monitoring of FMS indications.
2. Probably inadequate CRM by the flight crew in the cockpit.
3. Continuation by the crew of the approach procedure without visual contact with the
runway evironment.1. Probably inadequate monitoring of FMS indications.
2. Probably inadequate CRM by the flight crew in the cockpit.
3. Continuation by the crew of the approach procedure without visual contact with the
My italics. Note there is no mention of the descent.
The decent rate prior to FL100 is irrelevant because we don't know whether ATC gave continuous descent, but in the event it averaged at 2300 fpm. That's normal. According to the Report, below FL100 speed was below 250 kts and ROD 1400 fpm until flap extension at the normal altitude and speed.
The cause of this serious incident was a visual approach performed into the rising sun without proper visual reference and an FO who probably did not question what the CPT was doing due to a steep cockpit experience gradient. Articles in Flightglobal and in other places have focused on the cockpit gradient, not the ROD...
Whilst there are plenty of reasons to get the hell out of Ryanair, you can't blame the company culture for this event. Ryanair has developed comprehensive SOPs to reduce the chances of this type of brainfart from happening and I dare say this incident is no more or less likely to occur at any other airline.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whilst there are plenty of reasons to get the hell out of Ryanair, you can't blame the company culture for this event. Ryanair has developed comprehensive SOPs to reduce the chances of this type of brainfart from happening and I dare say this incident is no more or less likely to occur at any other airline.
A long brief does not make you to be a skilled pilot. I have seen brief's in Ryan up to 10-15 min long...
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Many things Can happen in a cockpitt. I Can understand this could happen in a Ryan aircraft with these craizzy long brief Thay haft to do, occopying there situation awerreness from flying.
A long brief does not make you to be a skilled pilot. I have seen brief's in Ryan up to 10-15 min long...
A long brief does not make you to be a skilled pilot. I have seen brief's in Ryan up to 10-15 min long...
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ireland
Age: 41
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
mr
Boeing, while I agree wit you that crazy long briefs are a cmplete waste of time, in FR the DALTA was just a structure for you to brief. It was up to you to brief, revelant points of the approach you were flying. In saying that you could manuplate the format as to the des you were flying to, some needed long briefings as to the type af arrival you might be conducting to a certain busy airport where as others needeed a little less consideration due to the frequency of their arr/dep and there capabilities. Long briefs should be a thing of the past in my opinion.
But a threat should be started (and maybe has) on the amount of people in our profession that like to hear the sound of their own voice.
But a threat should be started (and maybe has) on the amount of people in our profession that like to hear the sound of their own voice.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stev,
You are absolutly right, the DALTA was a god thing to have in mind in the brief, but some Line instr and FO's thought long brief's was safety included non importend things.
I remember ón one of my Line training, i had to do 3 times full brief since the airport changed the rwy 3 times... Had a Young punk instr less than 30 years to deal with compared to my 10000 hours in a boeing. Sorry to say i had enough after one year with Ryan. Many instr, desk pilots, base capt and so on act like stupid idiot like in the GA. Ryan is one big GA in my oppinion..
sorry to hitt the god guys...
Grow up fellow pilots and stick together, dont be selfish, fight Ryan and dont be scared to loss your job - there is no one else out there WHO wants to work for them at all ...
You are absolutly right, the DALTA was a god thing to have in mind in the brief, but some Line instr and FO's thought long brief's was safety included non importend things.
I remember ón one of my Line training, i had to do 3 times full brief since the airport changed the rwy 3 times... Had a Young punk instr less than 30 years to deal with compared to my 10000 hours in a boeing. Sorry to say i had enough after one year with Ryan. Many instr, desk pilots, base capt and so on act like stupid idiot like in the GA. Ryan is one big GA in my oppinion..
sorry to hitt the god guys...
Grow up fellow pilots and stick together, dont be selfish, fight Ryan and dont be scared to loss your job - there is no one else out there WHO wants to work for them at all ...
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: my house
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DALTA combined with common sense = thorough. relevant brief.
However if it is not combined with common sense it can be long, irrelevant, repetitive and laborious. "I've flown this star 100 times in the last 6 months, and ive landed on this runway 200 times.....i don't need to check the ******* landing distance chart etc. etc."
However if it is not combined with common sense it can be long, irrelevant, repetitive and laborious. "I've flown this star 100 times in the last 6 months, and ive landed on this runway 200 times.....i don't need to check the ******* landing distance chart etc. etc."
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In t'sky
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Threat and Errors then.. Ahh.. Umm.. It's a home base, so complacency?"
...I put down my reading to listen to that? Don't waste my time. If the runway is on fire, then that's pretty important, else briefings go on now for so long with some people that I unintentionally find myself switching off!
Horgy
...I put down my reading to listen to that? Don't waste my time. If the runway is on fire, then that's pretty important, else briefings go on now for so long with some people that I unintentionally find myself switching off!
Horgy
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Few can do 900 hours year on year without getting burnt out, in any airline.
My money is on most in RYR will be screaming for part time (if they can afford it ) within five years, so there might be lots of vacancies !!
This ' low cost ' experiment will fail in 10 years with most current pilots leaving the industry or sitting in the funny farm playing with their lips as their medical gets shredded. Just look at how new captains age after a couple of years of close calls
My money is on most in RYR will be screaming for part time (if they can afford it ) within five years, so there might be lots of vacancies !!
This ' low cost ' experiment will fail in 10 years with most current pilots leaving the industry or sitting in the funny farm playing with their lips as their medical gets shredded. Just look at how new captains age after a couple of years of close calls
Last edited by Cruise Zombie; 22nd Aug 2011 at 22:34.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Think Cruise Zombie has a fair point. After a few years of relentless 800 - 900 hours/year multi-sector ops, the pleasure of flying is hard to recall. Newer guys tend to have a more positive attitude to a busy roster (mainly because they get paid per hour) but the novelty soon wears off.
When you talk to guys doing these types of roster, there is no doubt that majority are coping with their situation rather than enjoying the experience. So thanks a lot, FR et al for managing to suck the the joy out of flying with the pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap (if you manage not to get ripped off) aviation model.
Hurrah for many more years flying round in circles while not having the time to take a dump from 4 am to 5 pm. In fact, it's so much fun that I can barely wait to do it all the next day, and the next, and the next and the next.
If it's so bad, I hear you ask, why isn't everyone leaving? Well, many are (despite desparate propaganda to the contrary) and those that aren't are either still getting something (hours,command etc) or are resigned to their lot in order to live at home.
If I were not leaving Europe's leading low-class airline, the only way I could contemplate staying would be on part-time.
When you talk to guys doing these types of roster, there is no doubt that majority are coping with their situation rather than enjoying the experience. So thanks a lot, FR et al for managing to suck the the joy out of flying with the pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap (if you manage not to get ripped off) aviation model.
Hurrah for many more years flying round in circles while not having the time to take a dump from 4 am to 5 pm. In fact, it's so much fun that I can barely wait to do it all the next day, and the next, and the next and the next.
If it's so bad, I hear you ask, why isn't everyone leaving? Well, many are (despite desparate propaganda to the contrary) and those that aren't are either still getting something (hours,command etc) or are resigned to their lot in order to live at home.
If I were not leaving Europe's leading low-class airline, the only way I could contemplate staying would be on part-time.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Newcastle NI
Posts: 824
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't see things changing anytime soon
FR are of course a major airline, but few other outfits of this size could get away with the way they treat their staff, never mind their customers, sims on days off, pay for your uniform, car parking, no pension, no union, salary deduction for your sim check, pay for your own hotel( I'm treating all who fly for FR as employees including contractor, because that is what they are in reality)
Boeing provide aircraft so cheap, that they are resold to generate a book profit, a five year life deal on APU's a deal on the brake life irrespective of whether you use reverse thrust or not, so can the brakes to save the fuel even when it 40c in Sevile.
They are very very shrewd at screwing their crews and customers, but without the cheap aircraft deal, airport subsidies,and all manner of iffy employment and tax practices they would have to charge at least 10 Euro's a seat more, how many of the 70million would still choose to fly with them then
Its a shame really because they have fantastic crews both up front and in the back, great equipment, great route network and on time performance and very safe of course, but most pax are happier when they got off, sadly the same choices isn't available to the employee's yes 10 years with them will leave you playing with your lips
I can't see things changing anytime soon
Boeing provide aircraft so cheap, that they are resold to generate a book profit, a five year life deal on APU's a deal on the brake life irrespective of whether you use reverse thrust or not, so can the brakes to save the fuel even when it 40c in Sevile.
They are very very shrewd at screwing their crews and customers, but without the cheap aircraft deal, airport subsidies,and all manner of iffy employment and tax practices they would have to charge at least 10 Euro's a seat more, how many of the 70million would still choose to fly with them then
Its a shame really because they have fantastic crews both up front and in the back, great equipment, great route network and on time performance and very safe of course, but most pax are happier when they got off, sadly the same choices isn't available to the employee's yes 10 years with them will leave you playing with your lips
I can't see things changing anytime soon