Ryanair exodus, what is the plan?
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I'm with stanstead on this one.
I worked another career for 15 years before becoming a pilot, I've got a house, a family and I'm now starting with BA in a few months. I don't have any training debt, and I'll bet that by the time you reach 40 you will still not be on the property or pension ladder because of the training debt, so your plan to get ahead by a few years, will actually put you back decades.
Interest rates are going to rocket in the next year or two - did anyone factor that into their figures? I'm sure a £100k unsecured debt at 3% is manageable. But what about at 5, 8, 10, 12, 15%? And what about when the new irish government decide you are all employees and tax you accordingly?
I'm not going to blame the woes of the world on ryanair crews, however it does hurt that the rest of us work for airlines that have to compete with a company that cuts its costs by ignoring the rules (little things like employment law, income tax etc).
I worked another career for 15 years before becoming a pilot, I've got a house, a family and I'm now starting with BA in a few months. I don't have any training debt, and I'll bet that by the time you reach 40 you will still not be on the property or pension ladder because of the training debt, so your plan to get ahead by a few years, will actually put you back decades.
Interest rates are going to rocket in the next year or two - did anyone factor that into their figures? I'm sure a £100k unsecured debt at 3% is manageable. But what about at 5, 8, 10, 12, 15%? And what about when the new irish government decide you are all employees and tax you accordingly?
I'm not going to blame the woes of the world on ryanair crews, however it does hurt that the rest of us work for airlines that have to compete with a company that cuts its costs by ignoring the rules (little things like employment law, income tax etc).
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HA thank you for proving my point stansdead. You know nothing of me or my career and yet you assume to pigeon hole me too. Again you jump to an assumption based on nothing. At no point have I said I work for FR, have 100K debt or do not own a home etc!!! What people chose to do in times of difficulty is their choice and what works for one won't work for another. LIFE!
I think it a little foolish to blame the entire company culture of FR on these cadets. There are many pilots from further afield eager to fill those slots and that is based on the salary on offer compared to what they will get in their own countries. T&C's have deteriorated in this country but that is due to a multitude of things especially supply and demand at the moment.
Back to thread
The article about flights not going due to crew shortages is this widespread now or just becoming an issue? Does anyone know what the actual attrition rate is?
I think it a little foolish to blame the entire company culture of FR on these cadets. There are many pilots from further afield eager to fill those slots and that is based on the salary on offer compared to what they will get in their own countries. T&C's have deteriorated in this country but that is due to a multitude of things especially supply and demand at the moment.
Back to thread
The article about flights not going due to crew shortages is this widespread now or just becoming an issue? Does anyone know what the actual attrition rate is?
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I do know that at my base, which is one of the larger bases, and at two of the other bases that I've been to, new CUs are not even keeping abreast of resignations. I've also been seeing an increase of walk offs, people not serving their notice period. This makes forecasting crewing numbers very difficult There is no incentive to leave on good terms with the no reentry policy.
Will we see aircraft grounded this summer with empty flight decks? Nah. A major problem for the flight deck community in FR is a lack of historical knowledge. Cast your minds back to winter 04/05. Futura, Eirjet and Titan to name but a few were operating flights because of the, ahem, "Boeing Machinist Strikes". There was a lack of crew because the -200 to -800 conversion process hitting the skids due to the legal dispute and clogging up the sim and training department. There were also lots of jobs around and FR were having trouble getting the numbers despite a number of incentives to entice Captains.
In fact, despite this background they were still managing to push down terms and conditions slowly but surely. This is a very determined employer. Who else would be ambitious enough to drive down salaries during a crew shortage!? But they did it. Part of the tool kit is their ability to coerce the IAA into giving licence validations, the only EU CAA to do so to my knowledge, effectively bypassing European licensing requirements/restrictions/burdens delete as appropriate. There was also even a time where they managed to persuade the government for work visas. Despite the posturing in the press there is a tremendous pressure not to be seen to impede one of the few so call success stories of the Irish economy. This opens up a whole new world of possibilities. There is always a pool of pilots somewhere in the world they can tap. Can't speak English? Not really a barrier.
If they have to they can steal guys away from other airlines by offering them a base they want at the expense of a guy who has served his time and has a transfer request in.
They will find a way. If the pilots have to pay for it that's just tough. No one wanted to get involved in a Union. This is the price of inaction. Hoping that this will result in a windfall payrise is delusional.
Someone earlier addressed a member of the management directly on this thread. You can be sure they read these threads. In one of the pay talks a very senior member of the board remarked on something he'd read on PPRuNe.
Will we see aircraft grounded this summer with empty flight decks? Nah. A major problem for the flight deck community in FR is a lack of historical knowledge. Cast your minds back to winter 04/05. Futura, Eirjet and Titan to name but a few were operating flights because of the, ahem, "Boeing Machinist Strikes". There was a lack of crew because the -200 to -800 conversion process hitting the skids due to the legal dispute and clogging up the sim and training department. There were also lots of jobs around and FR were having trouble getting the numbers despite a number of incentives to entice Captains.
In fact, despite this background they were still managing to push down terms and conditions slowly but surely. This is a very determined employer. Who else would be ambitious enough to drive down salaries during a crew shortage!? But they did it. Part of the tool kit is their ability to coerce the IAA into giving licence validations, the only EU CAA to do so to my knowledge, effectively bypassing European licensing requirements/restrictions/burdens delete as appropriate. There was also even a time where they managed to persuade the government for work visas. Despite the posturing in the press there is a tremendous pressure not to be seen to impede one of the few so call success stories of the Irish economy. This opens up a whole new world of possibilities. There is always a pool of pilots somewhere in the world they can tap. Can't speak English? Not really a barrier.
If they have to they can steal guys away from other airlines by offering them a base they want at the expense of a guy who has served his time and has a transfer request in.
They will find a way. If the pilots have to pay for it that's just tough. No one wanted to get involved in a Union. This is the price of inaction. Hoping that this will result in a windfall payrise is delusional.
Someone earlier addressed a member of the management directly on this thread. You can be sure they read these threads. In one of the pay talks a very senior member of the board remarked on something he'd read on PPRuNe.
Last edited by Telstar; 25th Jan 2011 at 10:56.
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Stansdead
Were Wizz Air involved with various pay to fly schemes?
Do low hour cadets pay for an Airbus type rating with Wizz?
Is a Ryanair type rating 29k?
Do low hour cadets pay for an Airbus type rating with Wizz?
Is a Ryanair type rating 29k?
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Telstar: I've found PPRuNe Forums - Professional Pilots Rumour Network in the address history of quite a few computers at EMT. You can be sure they're following along very closely.
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Telstar -
Did Eirjet and Futura not go out of business? As for titan they are going to be busy with supplying relief flights for BA if the cabin crew don't get what they want (i am sure there is a thread on this so not going to air my opinions!) Thought they only has a couple of planes as well and with their 75's painted orange all summer think they will lack the planes to help.
Just as a side note - did one of the FR managers not move to sleezy and screw up their pilot requirements? maybe he was a MOL mole!?!?
Despite the management reading all these posts will it make any difference knowing that their work force is unhappy - probably not so a good time to try an leave me thinks.
U737
Did Eirjet and Futura not go out of business? As for titan they are going to be busy with supplying relief flights for BA if the cabin crew don't get what they want (i am sure there is a thread on this so not going to air my opinions!) Thought they only has a couple of planes as well and with their 75's painted orange all summer think they will lack the planes to help.
Just as a side note - did one of the FR managers not move to sleezy and screw up their pilot requirements? maybe he was a MOL mole!?!?
Despite the management reading all these posts will it make any difference knowing that their work force is unhappy - probably not so a good time to try an leave me thinks.
U737
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D105
Yes there are plenty of computers in EMT. Where are management based?
It sure aint EMT. I believe they have computers in DUB and STN too despite much cost cutting. HR are based in STN and Dub.
The people who use the computers in EMT are other line pilots doing re current training or cadets.
And even if it were TRE's or base Cpts, management pilots rarely, save the very few have any influence on the big decisions.
Yes there are plenty of computers in EMT. Where are management based?
It sure aint EMT. I believe they have computers in DUB and STN too despite much cost cutting. HR are based in STN and Dub.
The people who use the computers in EMT are other line pilots doing re current training or cadets.
And even if it were TRE's or base Cpts, management pilots rarely, save the very few have any influence on the big decisions.
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How many new cadets are FR getting each month?
Do these numbers cover what are leaving? or continue to flood them with more and more low hour guys and reduce the number of hours worked by each FO?
Do these numbers cover what are leaving? or continue to flood them with more and more low hour guys and reduce the number of hours worked by each FO?
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Unregistered737,
The point is not about those airlines it's about being able to hire in extra lift if they really become stuck.
Alas, poor Warwick! I knew him well:
Ryanair case crash lands spectacularly in the high court
Glad to hear he's doing such a good job over at Easy. Hopefully now that he's graced aviation with his presence, gained "management skills", he'll bugger off and do something else. I doubt anyone would want him near their airline anymore.
The point is not about those airlines it's about being able to hire in extra lift if they really become stuck.
Just as a side note - did one of the FR managers not move to sleezy and screw up their pilot requirements? maybe he was a MOL mole!?!?
Ryanair case crash lands spectacularly in the high court
The judge found that this was one of two pieces of evidence from Mr Brady that "I consider to be false".
Last edited by Telstar; 25th Jan 2011 at 18:31.
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Interesting list , do me a favour, you must add 3 capt I know and also 5 first officers to that list who are also working their notice ... Some reason they don't appear on your "master list"
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ryanairpilotSTN
Well done. That's a much more factual post and looking at that list I can vouch for some of those. Maybe we can put an end to all the nonsense now?
As for Warwick, I'm sure he doesn't mind. You can't live by the sword and not expect to take a couple of swipes now and then.
Also interesting to imagine what, in the very near future, FR will look and feel like as a place of employment when this Rapid expansion stops. So many people have been born and raised in it in FR they've never known anything else. No more quick upgrades, base transfers will become even more difficult, the rotating door policy of employment coming to a slow. Interesting times ahead.
Well done. That's a much more factual post and looking at that list I can vouch for some of those. Maybe we can put an end to all the nonsense now?
As for Warwick, I'm sure he doesn't mind. You can't live by the sword and not expect to take a couple of swipes now and then.
Also interesting to imagine what, in the very near future, FR will look and feel like as a place of employment when this Rapid expansion stops. So many people have been born and raised in it in FR they've never known anything else. No more quick upgrades, base transfers will become even more difficult, the rotating door policy of employment coming to a slow. Interesting times ahead.
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Hi Highlow,
That is the correct data for people who have actually resigned. I have flown with pilots in Ryanair who were working their notice three years ago and are still in the crew room in STN!
Please publish the data for anyone else who you know is leaving and has resigned or PM and I will check against the list I was given.
That is the correct data for people who have actually resigned. I have flown with pilots in Ryanair who were working their notice three years ago and are still in the crew room in STN!
Please publish the data for anyone else who you know is leaving and has resigned or PM and I will check against the list I was given.
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ryanairpilotSTN - very interesting and apparently well-informed post. I was under the impression that Ryan's business model was to a degree, based on continued expansion thereby enabling money to be made off the trade in due course of each new airframe??? I could be mistaken on this point. Also, with the expansion stopping, then a drastic reduction in opportunities for 'P2F ' wannabees results.........Whilst bad news for the wannabees with dosh, could this not, ultimately prove to be a very good thing for the industry as a whole? This large, constant demand for 'P2F' wannabees from such a major player has surely led to a great downwards pressure on all our Ts and Cs. I take great encouragement from your post, I hope it's not misplaced.
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Perm contracts in Euro Bases
Just out of interest, If people are saying that pilots in Italy, UK, and Spain are going to be made to go onto permanent contracts, and they will not allow bases to be stacked to the rafters with Brookfield pilots, does that not give the pilot community a huge opportunity to fight back?
Look at it this way, currently if you were employed as a new pilot in Ryanair as a First Officer in the last 4 years, you are Brookfield, as are most of the new Captain upgrades. Lets take a conservative number.
FO = 80%
Cpt = 40%
Now, most of those will be in europe on a 5 year contract. So if they are made by the local government to be full Ryanair employees, and they offer very bad terms and conditions, then all the Brookfield pilots say NO, and what happens?
I would say that even if there are 5 crews per aircraft, with the massive percentage of them being un-operational due to the fact they are contractor, means that there will not be enough crews to cover the Europe based flights.
Just a thought, because I know I would not accept some of the permanent contracts that are being handed out at the moment. I would rather be at home with my family UK and working an office job then sitting in a country I don't want to be in, working for a company I resent, paying out for accommodation in 2 places, doing duty hours I am not getting paid for AND getting paid less!, and wishing I was at home!
Just food for thought, but it seems to me that if Ryanair is made to put all the contractors onto full time contracts and they don't accept it, they will not be able to plug the holes that they leave in the schedule fast enough with full time guys.
Look at it this way, currently if you were employed as a new pilot in Ryanair as a First Officer in the last 4 years, you are Brookfield, as are most of the new Captain upgrades. Lets take a conservative number.
FO = 80%
Cpt = 40%
Now, most of those will be in europe on a 5 year contract. So if they are made by the local government to be full Ryanair employees, and they offer very bad terms and conditions, then all the Brookfield pilots say NO, and what happens?
I would say that even if there are 5 crews per aircraft, with the massive percentage of them being un-operational due to the fact they are contractor, means that there will not be enough crews to cover the Europe based flights.
Just a thought, because I know I would not accept some of the permanent contracts that are being handed out at the moment. I would rather be at home with my family UK and working an office job then sitting in a country I don't want to be in, working for a company I resent, paying out for accommodation in 2 places, doing duty hours I am not getting paid for AND getting paid less!, and wishing I was at home!
Just food for thought, but it seems to me that if Ryanair is made to put all the contractors onto full time contracts and they don't accept it, they will not be able to plug the holes that they leave in the schedule fast enough with full time guys.
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FR Pilots targeted by agencies
I have heard on the jungle telegraph that things are starting to pick up massively in the industry, and especially contracting.
I know a number of agencies that are now specifically targeting Ryanair pilots in order to get 737 pilots in the far east and China.
Some of the contracts on offer at the moment are, or better then stated here, (and tell me how this compares to your command at FR and BRK).
250 P1
3000TT
US $160,000+ NET
Ranging from "8 weeks on - 4 weeks off" to "6 weeks on 3 weeks off"
80 hours per block (80+ = overtime)
Housing, medical, uniform paid.
Free eco flights home each block off
I hazard a guess that the Brookfield command salary, (I mean estimation of hours that you might or might not work), and most certainly the pitiful Ryanair contract does not compare to that, yet when the command does come along, then you will be working out of the base closest to your home, and end up doing something in the region of 7 on 2 off, (6 on 3 off if you can fly home after an early shift).
Of course, if you break the rules and the law and fly on the day you are operating to get to work on Jumpseat duty travel, and not declare it as FLIGHT duty hours for positioning before operating, then you might get another day at home.
I know where I would be going if I were a captain in Ryanair!
I know a number of agencies that are now specifically targeting Ryanair pilots in order to get 737 pilots in the far east and China.
Some of the contracts on offer at the moment are, or better then stated here, (and tell me how this compares to your command at FR and BRK).
250 P1
3000TT
US $160,000+ NET
Ranging from "8 weeks on - 4 weeks off" to "6 weeks on 3 weeks off"
80 hours per block (80+ = overtime)
Housing, medical, uniform paid.
Free eco flights home each block off
I hazard a guess that the Brookfield command salary, (I mean estimation of hours that you might or might not work), and most certainly the pitiful Ryanair contract does not compare to that, yet when the command does come along, then you will be working out of the base closest to your home, and end up doing something in the region of 7 on 2 off, (6 on 3 off if you can fly home after an early shift).
Of course, if you break the rules and the law and fly on the day you are operating to get to work on Jumpseat duty travel, and not declare it as FLIGHT duty hours for positioning before operating, then you might get another day at home.
I know where I would be going if I were a captain in Ryanair!
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ryanairpilotSTN
Oh dear! "They" were watching closely after all..... I guess "they" weren't too happy about that. That management pole just got even greasier for you! 
......................
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Nothing has changed at ryr, it's goals are still the same, growth and profits, nothing else matters, and it will never will change, you did know that didn't you? Surely before buying the job you knew that?
So now you don't like being based away from home and you're gonna show em by leaving for Emirates and be......er farther away from home!
You see the virus that you helped to spread has eradicated the traditional
industry and their T&C's, that you are now so desperate to join.
Those T&C's were hard fought for over many years, with solid values that the most arrogant of posters on this thread dismiss and mock as old fashioned and out of date. Early Twenties, one type and nothing left to learn..........
The truth is there will never be an exodus big enough, and there will never be a collective will big enough to change anything. As an FO you have a shelf life, either upgrade on ever reducing pay or be gradually side lined. Take a look at the ryr thread in jobs and sponsorhip. 99 pages full of wannabes, all who would gladly tread you face down to scramble into your still warm seat. You know the sort don't you...
So now you don't like being based away from home and you're gonna show em by leaving for Emirates and be......er farther away from home!
You see the virus that you helped to spread has eradicated the traditional
industry and their T&C's, that you are now so desperate to join.
Those T&C's were hard fought for over many years, with solid values that the most arrogant of posters on this thread dismiss and mock as old fashioned and out of date. Early Twenties, one type and nothing left to learn..........
The truth is there will never be an exodus big enough, and there will never be a collective will big enough to change anything. As an FO you have a shelf life, either upgrade on ever reducing pay or be gradually side lined. Take a look at the ryr thread in jobs and sponsorhip. 99 pages full of wannabes, all who would gladly tread you face down to scramble into your still warm seat. You know the sort don't you...
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The reality is that Airlines are no longer supported by the Tax Payer and have to make a profit for their share holders. You need to look at the big picture and not follow the heard in attacking FR pilots.