Ryanair exodus, what is the plan?
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F/O figures are all wrong in previous post guys
€0.00 While doing Type rating, Base training and Line training with safety pilot (approx 20sectors)
its €40.50 After safety pilot released while line training (€15 deducted to pay for your LTC basically)
€55.50 Until the end of the month up to 500hr on type
€70.50 Until the end of the month up to 1500hr on type
€78.50 until Command
Command pay varies on contract, somewhere between €120.50 and €133.50
These figures are PSBH after taking away the €4.50 they deduct for the sim
On top of this your accountant takes a further 3%.
€0.00 While doing Type rating, Base training and Line training with safety pilot (approx 20sectors)
its €40.50 After safety pilot released while line training (€15 deducted to pay for your LTC basically)
€55.50 Until the end of the month up to 500hr on type
€70.50 Until the end of the month up to 1500hr on type
€78.50 until Command
Command pay varies on contract, somewhere between €120.50 and €133.50
These figures are PSBH after taking away the €4.50 they deduct for the sim
On top of this your accountant takes a further 3%.
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Everytime I read threads like this, I thank my lucky stars that I decided to get out of the cockpit and into the head office.
As a 33 year old idiot, somehow, I now earn more, for less work, than a RYR skipper. Alright I don't get to see the sun rise at FL410 anymore, but then again, I don't need to watch the sun rise at all either as I'm fast asleep in bed.
The more I read here about RYR, the more I think that RYR managament are a smart bunch of so and so's and that pilots really are a lot thicker than they think they are.
If I go back to pilot mode, U737, I promise you that you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. If you cannot see why that might be, then do a bit more thinking, or try and live life without having Daddy pay for a type rating for you. (I've had the 'rents guarantee a mortgage for me, so I do know how easy it is compared to someone who has to make a scary decision about taking out a loan without any sort of safety net.)
You might get a different perspective on life.
Is there actually an "exodus" at RYR? Or is it just like it normally is when threads like this roll around on a monthly basis? Basically, just a figment of some over-active imaginations?
As someone who now works outside the cockpit, can I ask for everyone to carry on this sort of thing.
It does make life an awful lot easier for management types who get a lovely big bonus when they manage to cut a few quid from the salary budget. I want to buy a Porsche and so if everyone carries on like this, I should be able to sort that out in the next few months simply by shafting a few pilots who seem to not give a stuff.
Thanks in advance.
As a 33 year old idiot, somehow, I now earn more, for less work, than a RYR skipper. Alright I don't get to see the sun rise at FL410 anymore, but then again, I don't need to watch the sun rise at all either as I'm fast asleep in bed.
The more I read here about RYR, the more I think that RYR managament are a smart bunch of so and so's and that pilots really are a lot thicker than they think they are.
If I go back to pilot mode, U737, I promise you that you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. If you cannot see why that might be, then do a bit more thinking, or try and live life without having Daddy pay for a type rating for you. (I've had the 'rents guarantee a mortgage for me, so I do know how easy it is compared to someone who has to make a scary decision about taking out a loan without any sort of safety net.)
You might get a different perspective on life.
Is there actually an "exodus" at RYR? Or is it just like it normally is when threads like this roll around on a monthly basis? Basically, just a figment of some over-active imaginations?
As someone who now works outside the cockpit, can I ask for everyone to carry on this sort of thing.
It does make life an awful lot easier for management types who get a lovely big bonus when they manage to cut a few quid from the salary budget. I want to buy a Porsche and so if everyone carries on like this, I should be able to sort that out in the next few months simply by shafting a few pilots who seem to not give a stuff.
Thanks in advance.
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Slowly,
replying to your post, to answer your question: "THERE IS AN EXODUS".
I would think the fact you are currently working in Head Office, you would be well aware of the current employment climate that currently exists for pilots....obviously not! For your information, 120+ confirmed pilots working their notice... (yup the number is increasing by the week)
additionally, you state you are now in Head Office.....What kind of job you are doing there? , but if its now in a Management role, you have crossed the fence mate....since you are now looking at your former colleagues from a different perspective, its easy for you to knock them....
Yes people post messages on here in frustration...but not like with any other issues people had with RYR, people are acting with their feet...and walking away....
So Slowly, continue with your , what I suspect, are your management tactics to try and dilute the seriousness of the situation for your guys in Head Office, but if you really were in touch with reality, you would know S&*( is hitting the fan big time..
replying to your post, to answer your question: "THERE IS AN EXODUS".
I would think the fact you are currently working in Head Office, you would be well aware of the current employment climate that currently exists for pilots....obviously not! For your information, 120+ confirmed pilots working their notice... (yup the number is increasing by the week)
additionally, you state you are now in Head Office.....What kind of job you are doing there? , but if its now in a Management role, you have crossed the fence mate....since you are now looking at your former colleagues from a different perspective, its easy for you to knock them....
Yes people post messages on here in frustration...but not like with any other issues people had with RYR, people are acting with their feet...and walking away....
So Slowly, continue with your , what I suspect, are your management tactics to try and dilute the seriousness of the situation for your guys in Head Office, but if you really were in touch with reality, you would know S&*( is hitting the fan big time..
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High low there is no exodus, there is people leaving 120 people thats less than 5 percent of the pilot workforce management couldn't care less.
The only thing that will change the situation at Ryanair is when people can be convinced to come togetheir and not cave in when management come with their intimidation during the next recognition campaign.
Remeber the next time you save 750kgs to 1000kgs of fuel, remeber the next time you take the gear down at 4 instead of 5 miles where the savings go straight into the executives pockets so they can slap us in the face with it.
Pilots in Ryanair save the most of money for the ryanair operation,Yet we are punished for it with ****ty contracts no pension no stability.basically being payed only 10months of the year.
If you loose your job as a contracter you are not entitled to employment benefits.
No where in the academic, theoretical or practical world of business would it be considered a prudent, efficient or best practice to punish or penalize individuals who make excellent choices in the workplace. Doing so would verge on lunacy.
So Nick14 for example join a union but dont just join ask what you can do to help out.Would you like you'r children to have these sort of employment rights?
For me the cause of unionisation in this profession is more important because the safety of our passengers should be our primary concern when you treat the pilots like this well you havent learned from the buffalo accident.
The only thing that will change the situation at Ryanair is when people can be convinced to come togetheir and not cave in when management come with their intimidation during the next recognition campaign.
Remeber the next time you save 750kgs to 1000kgs of fuel, remeber the next time you take the gear down at 4 instead of 5 miles where the savings go straight into the executives pockets so they can slap us in the face with it.
Pilots in Ryanair save the most of money for the ryanair operation,Yet we are punished for it with ****ty contracts no pension no stability.basically being payed only 10months of the year.
If you loose your job as a contracter you are not entitled to employment benefits.
No where in the academic, theoretical or practical world of business would it be considered a prudent, efficient or best practice to punish or penalize individuals who make excellent choices in the workplace. Doing so would verge on lunacy.
So Nick14 for example join a union but dont just join ask what you can do to help out.Would you like you'r children to have these sort of employment rights?
For me the cause of unionisation in this profession is more important because the safety of our passengers should be our primary concern when you treat the pilots like this well you havent learned from the buffalo accident.
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Highlow, I don't work for RYR, so I have no specific knowledge of what's going on there, which is why I ask the question.
Why the anti-management biasthough? This is something that drives me nuts in this game. This adversarial stance between head office and crew doesn't help anyone and it's something that I hope I can help to start to change in a small way.
I'm not on the "other side of the fence" I know exactly goes on in the cockpit and the pressures people are under. Just because I made the decision to get into another part of the business, doesn't mean that I want to shaft anyone or do anything but make the business stronger, which should mean that everyones jobs are more secure and the chances of better renumeration are there.
I've flown for an airline that went bust and which before that treated it's staff so appallingly, that M'OL comes across like a fairy God-Mother in comparison. However, a lot of people would have them up as a good place. They paid for your rating and all other costs as you were on a fulltime contract, but rostering was a shambles, every decision was questioned and the aircraft were a mess.
To get a stable company, it needs to be efficient. In this era of huge competition, then it means that pilots need to work a bit harder than they did 30 years ago. That's just the way of it.
I'm not a fan of the way RYR uses contractors instead of proper staff. Somehow they've managed to pull of the trick of paying people a fulltimers wage, but without the job security of being a full time employee. Honestly, it's a genius move and whilst I don't like much of what RYR do, you have to respect the way they go about their business. I should think whoever came up with that particular "solution" was initially shouted down with cries of "They'll never fall for that!"
But they did fall for it and continue to do so.
RYR's job is to provide profit for it's shareholders and they do that very well.
Why don't pilots try to think like business people. Instead of just whinging about how certain practises are "unfair." Make a case for why things should change, don't just bleat.
I remember an HR person asked a bunch of pilots and engineers to come up with a case why each of them should be paid more than the other. All that came from the pilots (and I was one of them) was "pay us more, 'cos we is pilots innit and therefore officially awesome." Instead of making the case for how critical pilots are to the business and how what we do has a significant effect on the bottom line.
Once we'd had that bit of advice, it was easy to put together a business case for how pilots should get paid more, but the vast majority of people who post on Pprune simply blow hot air and never actually do anything other than get indignant and shouty.
This makes pilots easy meat for someone in management who's job it is to save money, but keep the same service level. Which is what I am doing BTW. I'm a business analyst which means I look at how things are being done and improve them.
Individually pilots are usually smart people, but as a group, we're pretty dumb really.
Why the anti-management biasthough? This is something that drives me nuts in this game. This adversarial stance between head office and crew doesn't help anyone and it's something that I hope I can help to start to change in a small way.
I'm not on the "other side of the fence" I know exactly goes on in the cockpit and the pressures people are under. Just because I made the decision to get into another part of the business, doesn't mean that I want to shaft anyone or do anything but make the business stronger, which should mean that everyones jobs are more secure and the chances of better renumeration are there.
I've flown for an airline that went bust and which before that treated it's staff so appallingly, that M'OL comes across like a fairy God-Mother in comparison. However, a lot of people would have them up as a good place. They paid for your rating and all other costs as you were on a fulltime contract, but rostering was a shambles, every decision was questioned and the aircraft were a mess.
To get a stable company, it needs to be efficient. In this era of huge competition, then it means that pilots need to work a bit harder than they did 30 years ago. That's just the way of it.
I'm not a fan of the way RYR uses contractors instead of proper staff. Somehow they've managed to pull of the trick of paying people a fulltimers wage, but without the job security of being a full time employee. Honestly, it's a genius move and whilst I don't like much of what RYR do, you have to respect the way they go about their business. I should think whoever came up with that particular "solution" was initially shouted down with cries of "They'll never fall for that!"
But they did fall for it and continue to do so.
RYR's job is to provide profit for it's shareholders and they do that very well.
Why don't pilots try to think like business people. Instead of just whinging about how certain practises are "unfair." Make a case for why things should change, don't just bleat.
I remember an HR person asked a bunch of pilots and engineers to come up with a case why each of them should be paid more than the other. All that came from the pilots (and I was one of them) was "pay us more, 'cos we is pilots innit and therefore officially awesome." Instead of making the case for how critical pilots are to the business and how what we do has a significant effect on the bottom line.
Once we'd had that bit of advice, it was easy to put together a business case for how pilots should get paid more, but the vast majority of people who post on Pprune simply blow hot air and never actually do anything other than get indignant and shouty.
This makes pilots easy meat for someone in management who's job it is to save money, but keep the same service level. Which is what I am doing BTW. I'm a business analyst which means I look at how things are being done and improve them.
Individually pilots are usually smart people, but as a group, we're pretty dumb really.
Last edited by Say again s l o w l y; 23rd Jan 2011 at 10:31.
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It's amazing how many different figure there are for cadets!!
Here's what my contract pays:
Nothing until safety pilot release,
40/sbh until the end of the month you are checked (35.5)
60/sbh until 500 hrs on type (55.5)
75/sbh until 1500 hrs on type (70.5)
78/sbh until command (73.5)
I think the command figure was 130/sbh so 125.5
Here's what my contract pays:
Nothing until safety pilot release,
40/sbh until the end of the month you are checked (35.5)
60/sbh until 500 hrs on type (55.5)
75/sbh until 1500 hrs on type (70.5)
78/sbh until command (73.5)
I think the command figure was 130/sbh so 125.5
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The 'exodus' would be greater if RYR and by extention its pilots didn't have such a reputation. Every recruitment going has alot of RYR (and to a lesser extent Easy) applicants desperate to get out.
But by now we all know someone who works in that company and the crap they put up with beggers belief. Then there is other issue's like the rejection of a union, cadets taking work from experienced FO's, P2F, etc, etc,etc.
When it comes to recruitment, fellow pilots are usually involved somewhere in the process. When the going gets tough they might want to know that that they can depend on their fellow pilot colleague. They might not want someone who will shaft them and then say "well what else was I supposed to do if I wanted to get on with my career"
If you have enough money the low-co's maight be easy to get into but getting out might be harder than they expect.
But by now we all know someone who works in that company and the crap they put up with beggers belief. Then there is other issue's like the rejection of a union, cadets taking work from experienced FO's, P2F, etc, etc,etc.
When it comes to recruitment, fellow pilots are usually involved somewhere in the process. When the going gets tough they might want to know that that they can depend on their fellow pilot colleague. They might not want someone who will shaft them and then say "well what else was I supposed to do if I wanted to get on with my career"
If you have enough money the low-co's maight be easy to get into but getting out might be harder than they expect.
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The major shareholders are the management, are they not? The company has billions in the bank despite/because of a recession and as a reward for treating its staff and passengers with contempt.
How rich do they need to be? And at what social cost? These people, especially MOL, are the embodiment of capitalist greed. Praising them for being good businessmen is like praising corrupt Third World politicians for increasing the wealth of their friends and family at the expense of the poor.
That's why nobody is proud of working for the company and would leave if there were anywhere they could go. There is no exodus because there are few options...yet.
How rich do they need to be? And at what social cost? These people, especially MOL, are the embodiment of capitalist greed. Praising them for being good businessmen is like praising corrupt Third World politicians for increasing the wealth of their friends and family at the expense of the poor.
That's why nobody is proud of working for the company and would leave if there were anywhere they could go. There is no exodus because there are few options...yet.
I don't like how many of the staff are treated and so don't work for them.
However, it doesn't mean that you cannot look from afar and if you take emotion out of it, you have to have respect for what RYR (and that includes the whole team) has achieved in 15 years.
Only a fool dismisses success just because it goes against your morals. I don't like how RYR have done many things, but that doesn't mean that I cannot respect their business acumen. Like and respect are 2 different things.
Fair point, however there are plenty of companies who have enjoyed amazing success while retaining the admiration and respect of their competitors and staff.
Microsoft?
MOL and Bill Gates: compare and contrast....
Microsoft?
MOL and Bill Gates: compare and contrast....
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Or South West etc.etc.
Please don't think I'm excusing bad behaviour, I certainly am not, my own opinion is that any company is stronger long term when it has a stable, well rewarded and recognised workforce. Not that people should be fat, dumb and lazy of course, but all working for the good of the company and eachother.
In 10 years time we'll see if RYR's management strategy has been successful. So far it has and they've been able to get away with stuff like using contractors etc simply because there are more people seeking jobs than there are jobs, so they've been in the driving seat.
IF things change in the job market (and that is a big if) then the current set up might not be sustainable. Only time will tell.
Please don't think I'm excusing bad behaviour, I certainly am not, my own opinion is that any company is stronger long term when it has a stable, well rewarded and recognised workforce. Not that people should be fat, dumb and lazy of course, but all working for the good of the company and eachother.
In 10 years time we'll see if RYR's management strategy has been successful. So far it has and they've been able to get away with stuff like using contractors etc simply because there are more people seeking jobs than there are jobs, so they've been in the driving seat.
IF things change in the job market (and that is a big if) then the current set up might not be sustainable. Only time will tell.
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I was of course not talking about their pilot skills. The RYR guys do get a bashing in terms of their reputation. It would be odd if that wasn't reflected in some way when it came to them being recruited into other UK airlines. See post 238.
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If BA recruitment is skewed against people from RYR for some reason, then that is very stupid.
It's also mindbogglingly arrogant. I would expect better from BA if this is the case.
It's also mindbogglingly arrogant. I would expect better from BA if this is the case.
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4star: If that is the case it says quite a bit more about UK airlines and British mentality than it does about people who have worked for Ryanair.
Slowly: As you state yourself you have not worked for this company. Until you do, you don't really know what you are talking about.
On another note. Anyone been hearing rumours about the Irish government thinking of forcing Ryanair to contract all staff on Irish contracts?
Slowly: As you state yourself you have not worked for this company. Until you do, you don't really know what you are talking about.
On another note. Anyone been hearing rumours about the Irish government thinking of forcing Ryanair to contract all staff on Irish contracts?
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D105 I have heard Eamon Gilmore on record as saying that if he is in the next government which is highly likely he will bring in legislation for mandatory union recognition among other issues for the employee i believe the issue of contracters is also on the table for them at least.
Some hope in a sea of despair...
Some hope in a sea of despair...
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I have heard Eamon Gilmore on record as saying that if he is in the next government which is highly likely he will bring in legislation for mandatory union recognition among other issues for the employee i believe the issue of contracters is also on the table for them at least.
Some hope in a sea of despair...
Some hope in a sea of despair...
Might bode well for Irish pilots & upgrades....Or possibly not..
Say again slowly:
Why don't pilots try to think like business people. Instead of just whinging about how certain practises are "unfair." Make a case for why things should change, don't just bleat.
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S A S
Oh come on this is so unfair, FR do a lot of good work for charities eg the annual soft porn calendar and the incessantly annoying scratch cards that are forced down your throat on board.
Please note at least 1 penny from each calendar or scratch card wil go to a nominated golf course
Unreg 737
Ok forget the TR scenario, like it or not FR have a certain stigma attached to them regarding their "employment practices", from charging for submitting an application, uniforms, pens, water etc to carrying out LPCs, OPCs etc on days off. You and others were prepared to disregard these FACTS in order to get your arses in the RHS. Regardless of your wonderful pay and quality hours who in their right mind would think FR management would soften in their old age and improve t&c's over time? If anything it was more than likely they would use a sledge hammer to batter them down even further. This is in fact the case and probably it's time you accepted it as being part of it.
And at what social cost? These people, especially MOL, are the embodiment of capitalist greed.
Please note at least 1 penny from each calendar or scratch card wil go to a nominated golf course
Unreg 737
Ok forget the TR scenario, like it or not FR have a certain stigma attached to them regarding their "employment practices", from charging for submitting an application, uniforms, pens, water etc to carrying out LPCs, OPCs etc on days off. You and others were prepared to disregard these FACTS in order to get your arses in the RHS. Regardless of your wonderful pay and quality hours who in their right mind would think FR management would soften in their old age and improve t&c's over time? If anything it was more than likely they would use a sledge hammer to batter them down even further. This is in fact the case and probably it's time you accepted it as being part of it.
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Ok so here we go.
Today's flight BRI-BGY 06:30 cacelled.
Reason : lack of flight deck
Already happening in January. Sit tight because it is going to be an interesting summer.
Today's flight BRI-BGY 06:30 cacelled.
Reason : lack of flight deck
Already happening in January. Sit tight because it is going to be an interesting summer.