Astraeus A320 Contracts
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Originally Posted by Rainboe
I don't understand business and financial affairs like this. My strength is in getting out there flying aeroplanes and trying to minimise costs and help maximise revenue. If the wizzkids do their job taking care of business as well as I do mine, then we will all be happy. The smart financial stuff I leave to get sorted out by the company.
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Tell that to Easyjet management! It's called 'market forces'. Too many pilots chasing too few jobs, pay goes down. Fighting it is like fighting the tide. And NSF in his cosy little niche is soon going to find the water washing away his little sand castle! Blame it on a few ex-Hamble pilots all you like- remove them from the equation and you will find absolutely no difference.
Nobody was blaming anything on ex-hamble pilots. That was a mature highly selective scheme that provided a few (properly sponsored) places annually, into a large state (later privatised) carrier. However this "type" of scheme was later exploited to provide a profitable factory of 200 hour pilots for airlines that wanted a cheap supply of type rated licence holders to satisfy the CAA's Minimum requirements for the right hand seat.
Anyone who listens to some of your absurd advice deserves to be in the unemployment queue! But it does sound in un peu bad taste- people in paid employment encouraging unemployed not to apply to a particular company!
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It isn't that anybody resents your good fortune, well I certainly don't. It is simply that you seem to have jumped into this pulpit to proclaim to the masses the terms & conditions that reflect this new reality. Recession, competition, supply and demand, they are indeed all contributory factors to the market rate. However the lack of regulation at the entry level is now eliminating any real career for prospective new entrants, as the requirements have been parred down to a class one medical and a well funded cheque book account.
For commands there is a significant pool of redundant labour which will serve to drop market rates, however it is disingenous for pop stars, and those who who have elected to extend their own careers by taking lower paid employment for additional pin money to be preaching to the masses about the new realities, when their own troughs are well and truly overflowing.
You are right in the sense that your own financial arrangements are a matter for you and nobody else. However they seem to have been promoted in this thread as a point of contention. I also look forward to drawing a fully funded pension and adding that to a substantial savings pot, and then continuing to work for anywhere from 5 to 10 years more with yet another salary, or a continuation of the one I have. So what if they halve it, I will still be much, much better off.
What about the industry? Well who cares! I will be OK, you will be OK and the other "I am alright Jacks" will be OK as well. Perhaps we can meet up for Twinings tea and discuss the merits of globalisation and 200 hour pilots and plane drivers and train drivers salaries. I am not sure our sons and daughters will forgive us showing the same complacancy that has already allowed this situation to develop, but never mind, they can take the inheritance and thereby afford to live on these wages as well!
For commands there is a significant pool of redundant labour which will serve to drop market rates, however it is disingenous for pop stars, and those who who have elected to extend their own careers by taking lower paid employment for additional pin money to be preaching to the masses about the new realities, when their own troughs are well and truly overflowing.
You are right in the sense that your own financial arrangements are a matter for you and nobody else. However they seem to have been promoted in this thread as a point of contention. I also look forward to drawing a fully funded pension and adding that to a substantial savings pot, and then continuing to work for anywhere from 5 to 10 years more with yet another salary, or a continuation of the one I have. So what if they halve it, I will still be much, much better off.
What about the industry? Well who cares! I will be OK, you will be OK and the other "I am alright Jacks" will be OK as well. Perhaps we can meet up for Twinings tea and discuss the merits of globalisation and 200 hour pilots and plane drivers and train drivers salaries. I am not sure our sons and daughters will forgive us showing the same complacancy that has already allowed this situation to develop, but never mind, they can take the inheritance and thereby afford to live on these wages as well!
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Personally I don't have a problem with retiring, cashing in the pension and continuing to work at XYZ airlines. It's a well worn career path. I may decide to do the same some day ( well I probably won't because I prefer golf but I WOULD like the option!).
The pension rights that Rainboe accrued were won not because he is a great guy or a super pilot or because he deserves it but because of BALPA and industrial muscle.
I earn a good salary and have a nice pension arrangement similar to what Rainboe had in BA. Likewise it's not because I'm a great pilot or anything but mainly due to the industrial muscle of my association IALPA who negotiated these nice agreements.
AEU is being used as a battering ram by EI to attempt to clobber IALPA and displace my colleagues, and vaporize my T&C's.
Moreover, judging by their 'training' I don't think anyone in AEU can spell Airbus let alone fly one. Our training department are well aware how shambolic the AEU 'training' is but have effectively washed their hands of it. I have to say this is something I find deeply shameful and embarrasing.
The pension rights that Rainboe accrued were won not because he is a great guy or a super pilot or because he deserves it but because of BALPA and industrial muscle.
I earn a good salary and have a nice pension arrangement similar to what Rainboe had in BA. Likewise it's not because I'm a great pilot or anything but mainly due to the industrial muscle of my association IALPA who negotiated these nice agreements.
AEU is being used as a battering ram by EI to attempt to clobber IALPA and displace my colleagues, and vaporize my T&C's.
Moreover, judging by their 'training' I don't think anyone in AEU can spell Airbus let alone fly one. Our training department are well aware how shambolic the AEU 'training' is but have effectively washed their hands of it. I have to say this is something I find deeply shameful and embarrasing.
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Not union busting then?
Notice from IFALPA:
Reference:
IND/09
10IND043
5 November 2009
Dear All,
Request for Mutual Assistance by IALPA against Aer Lingus
We have been informed by the Irish Air Line Pilots’ Association (IALPA) that they are in dispute
with Aer Lingus. The Company has notified IALPA of 100 job losses in December whilst at the
same they have entered into a commercial arrangement to dry lease aircraft to a UK based airline
Astraeus, and then to wet lease them back to operate Aer Lingus services. This operation is
schedule to commence on November 7th. The pilots being used have been seconded to Astraeus
from Aer Lingus and also directly recruited. In addition Aer Lingus has demanded major
concessions from the pilots which include pay reductions of between 30 to 50% for current staff and
the introduction of dramatically reduced scales for new pilots and the termination of current
agreements. This is backed up by the threat to transfer Aer Lingus operations to a new airline
operating on a UK AOC.
IALPA are therefore requesting the following Mutual Assistance:
Request for Ban on Wet Leasing (I Manual, Paragraph 2.4.1.4)
Request for Recruitment Ban (I Manual, Paragraph 2.4.2)
Request for Denial of Training Facilities (I Manual, Paragraph 2.4.3)
Request for Denial of Cockpit Crew Contracting (I Manual, Paragraph 2.4.5)
IALPA will keep IFALPA and Member Associations informed of any further developments
concerning this dispute.
Thank you for your co-operation.
Yours faithfully,
Captain Georg Fongern
Executive Vice-President
Professional Affairs
Reference:
IND/09
10IND043
5 November 2009
Dear All,
Request for Mutual Assistance by IALPA against Aer Lingus
We have been informed by the Irish Air Line Pilots’ Association (IALPA) that they are in dispute
with Aer Lingus. The Company has notified IALPA of 100 job losses in December whilst at the
same they have entered into a commercial arrangement to dry lease aircraft to a UK based airline
Astraeus, and then to wet lease them back to operate Aer Lingus services. This operation is
schedule to commence on November 7th. The pilots being used have been seconded to Astraeus
from Aer Lingus and also directly recruited. In addition Aer Lingus has demanded major
concessions from the pilots which include pay reductions of between 30 to 50% for current staff and
the introduction of dramatically reduced scales for new pilots and the termination of current
agreements. This is backed up by the threat to transfer Aer Lingus operations to a new airline
operating on a UK AOC.
IALPA are therefore requesting the following Mutual Assistance:
Request for Ban on Wet Leasing (I Manual, Paragraph 2.4.1.4)
Request for Recruitment Ban (I Manual, Paragraph 2.4.2)
Request for Denial of Training Facilities (I Manual, Paragraph 2.4.3)
Request for Denial of Cockpit Crew Contracting (I Manual, Paragraph 2.4.5)
IALPA will keep IFALPA and Member Associations informed of any further developments
concerning this dispute.
Thank you for your co-operation.
Yours faithfully,
Captain Georg Fongern
Executive Vice-President
Professional Affairs
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I'm sure there is no truth in the story currently circulating that certain senior figures in Astraeus are veterans of the infamous union bust waged against the Ansett pilots. That just couldn't be true!
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Moreover, judging by their 'training' I don't think anyone in AEU can spell Airbus let alone fly one. Our training department are well aware how shambolic the AEU 'training' is but have effectively washed their hands of it. I have to say this is something I find deeply shameful and embarrasing.
I dont know anything about their training. You clearly have first hand experience of it, otherwise you wouldnt be irresponsible enough to make such a sweeping accusation. What exactly was wrong with the training you received?
It occurs to me that, if what you say is true, then your management wouldnt risk the reputation of their company by washing their hands.
There is stuff here that doesnt add up.
I dont know anything about their training. You clearly have first hand experience of it, otherwise you wouldnt be irresponsible enough to make such a sweeping accusation. What exactly was wrong with the training you received?
It occurs to me that, if what you say is true, then your management wouldnt risk the reputation of their company by washing their hands.
There is stuff here that doesnt add up.
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Well what do you know? Surprise! It turns out that IFALPA are indeed onto what is happening, and that everything I have said about the Astraeus A320 contract is true. Who would have believed it? Don't read a single one of my posts - just read the text above from IFALPA as it really says it all. So Rainboe, maybe now you may have cottoned onto the fact that no one cares about your BA pension or what company you work for. What people care about is the shameful use of Astraeus to destroy the liveliehoods of current Aer Lingus pilots. This is simply unacceptable and I am absolutely delighted that at last the battle is about to kick off. Alas, Rainboe old fruit, you are about to find yourself on the wrong side of a messy union battle. Maybe this is the time to resign your BALPA membership that you have held since 1971. It is just such a shame that having gained so much from being a member to date, you are now so easily participating in a scheme to destroy fellow union members.
Doug the Head - I know we have our disagreements over easyJet, but I am disappointed you are using such an important issue to continue to snipe at me here. I neither desire your good opinion or fear your disdain, but I do think that your comments are misplaced. This issue affects every single pilot who belongs to a legitimate trade union and should be seen as an attack on us all. The situation at Astraeus transcends our differing views, and I trust that you can see the totally unacceptable nature of what is taking place here. For what it is worth, I completely deplore the treatment of our cadets and newly promoted captains by easyJet. Nonetheless, however loathsome that may be, it simply cannot be compared to this situation. This is no different from Astraeus being brought in to do the work of easyJet at Gatwick - even you would hopefully see the need to stand up and fight rather than just carp from the sidelines.
Doug the Head - I know we have our disagreements over easyJet, but I am disappointed you are using such an important issue to continue to snipe at me here. I neither desire your good opinion or fear your disdain, but I do think that your comments are misplaced. This issue affects every single pilot who belongs to a legitimate trade union and should be seen as an attack on us all. The situation at Astraeus transcends our differing views, and I trust that you can see the totally unacceptable nature of what is taking place here. For what it is worth, I completely deplore the treatment of our cadets and newly promoted captains by easyJet. Nonetheless, however loathsome that may be, it simply cannot be compared to this situation. This is no different from Astraeus being brought in to do the work of easyJet at Gatwick - even you would hopefully see the need to stand up and fight rather than just carp from the sidelines.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Has there been a response from BALPA, or from the 'nominated' negotiators for Astraeus, the IPA/?F? If BALPA accept the IFALPA request it will be interesting to hear what our BALPA stalwarts make of it.
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It is doubtful the pilot unions will be able to influence this contract.
The company has the right to dry lease out and wet lease in and the union cannot stop another company such as AEU from recruiting for the A320.
Presumably the EI crews were aware of the T+Cs when they agreed to be seconded, and with the training being conducted by IAGO on behalf of AEU, what training facilities could reasonably be denied?
As often pointed out on this forum, the IPA/F believe in working with airlines not against them, and as such the unions involved are seeing this from dramatically opposed positions.
Whilst this liaison makes sound commercial sense for AEU and increases their standing in the ACMI market, without doubt, it is also an opportunity for the EI management to flex its muscles..
The company has the right to dry lease out and wet lease in and the union cannot stop another company such as AEU from recruiting for the A320.
Presumably the EI crews were aware of the T+Cs when they agreed to be seconded, and with the training being conducted by IAGO on behalf of AEU, what training facilities could reasonably be denied?
As often pointed out on this forum, the IPA/F believe in working with airlines not against them, and as such the unions involved are seeing this from dramatically opposed positions.
Whilst this liaison makes sound commercial sense for AEU and increases their standing in the ACMI market, without doubt, it is also an opportunity for the EI management to flex its muscles..
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Hey Rainboe, have you seen the news? Your old alma mater is losing money at a phenomenal rate. Why dont you and your buddies at Astraeus contact Willie and suggest he makes all his pilots redundant. Then he could dry lease his entire fleet out to you guys and you then wet lease it back complete with pilots prepared to do the job for peanuts...hell I'm sure there's plenty of potential F/o's out there who'd PAY to get to log some jet time. You could call the whole thing the Rainboe Plan!....Genius.
Given that you obviously have the stomach for muscling me and 99 other of my colleagues out of our rightful jobs at EI, then surely you wouldnt have a problem sh*tting on your own doorstep?
And no doubt your former BA colleagues would be wholly appreciative of your sterling effort to aid their by then former employer, n'est-ce-que-pas? I'm sure they'd all be there, down the job centre nodding sagely saying "....well as Rainboe said, its market forces you see...."
People, the thing that separates human beings from the animal kingdom is the fact that we have a conscience, the ability to discern right from wrong. Rainboe, you, Sir are a Cuckoo and I do NOT appreciate you kicking me out of my nest just because you fancy it for yourself. I know that times are tough out there, and we all have families to feed, but it is wrong to steal food from the mouth of someone else's family, to feed your own!
From the beancounters perspective this plan is a licence to print money but in terms of human cost it is morally bankrupt.
Watch your backs everyone, if Cuckoostraeus get away with this there could be a Rainboe Plan coming to your airline soon!
And Rainboe, if you are annoyed by the new moniker I've given your company then please let me know. I will of course capitulate and revert back to the Ass prefix you so richly deserve....
Regards
Ska-bearbaiter
Given that you obviously have the stomach for muscling me and 99 other of my colleagues out of our rightful jobs at EI, then surely you wouldnt have a problem sh*tting on your own doorstep?
And no doubt your former BA colleagues would be wholly appreciative of your sterling effort to aid their by then former employer, n'est-ce-que-pas? I'm sure they'd all be there, down the job centre nodding sagely saying "....well as Rainboe said, its market forces you see...."
People, the thing that separates human beings from the animal kingdom is the fact that we have a conscience, the ability to discern right from wrong. Rainboe, you, Sir are a Cuckoo and I do NOT appreciate you kicking me out of my nest just because you fancy it for yourself. I know that times are tough out there, and we all have families to feed, but it is wrong to steal food from the mouth of someone else's family, to feed your own!
From the beancounters perspective this plan is a licence to print money but in terms of human cost it is morally bankrupt.
Watch your backs everyone, if Cuckoostraeus get away with this there could be a Rainboe Plan coming to your airline soon!
And Rainboe, if you are annoyed by the new moniker I've given your company then please let me know. I will of course capitulate and revert back to the Ass prefix you so richly deserve....
Regards
Ska-bearbaiter
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Are there a huge amount of potted plants in whatever hole Astraeus use as their head office? I'd imagine the place is overgrown at this stage. 
The reason aviation is the way it is......airlines (run by estate agents) like Astraeus...
The reason aviation is the way it is......airlines (run by estate agents) like Astraeus...
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Rainboe
Sure. Having skimmed back through your last 150 posts which is around 6 weeks worth for you, none of your posts have been "expunged" from this forum save for two (now four) that you dispatched yourself. Around half a dozen or so have been removed from various other forums for one reason or another.
I cannot see that you are being treated harshly or unfairly and I note that there have not been any complaints from you through the "reported post" medium. If you have a complaint then direct it accordingly.
Well, I know it's fun to indulge in the occasional anonymous abuse- I've done it myself! It does need a blinkered view from one side only, so as long as you truly believe that your side is totally innocent and you haven't been overpaid (and overmanned) in a business that last made a profit rather a long time ago and now finds it worth going through all this, well go ahead boys and fill your boots! Funny touch bringing BA pilots into this- I suppose we've flogged the pension thing to death, but at least BA was a fairly profitable (and productive) business until a year or two back, but what they pay is their business. As for me, I have zero zilch to do with AL and Airbuses- I will not fly them or have anything to do with that side of things- it makes not a jot of difference to me or all my colleagues. It may interest you to know that many companies bid for this contract. Any issues you have are with your employer, not the contract winner. So please try speaking to your employer like that now and let them know your true feelings! I'm sure they would love to hear your views! Far more productive than anonymous abuse you would never dare saying to anybody's face (particularly mine!), but as I said, really letting rip with anonymous abuse is occasionally 'good for the soul' and can be therapeutic, and fun to boot.
It's a shame that the board is happy to host such personal vitriol though. when I think of my comments that are expunged, it says something about the running of this board that such spite is happily hosted.
Moderator, care to comment?
It's a shame that the board is happy to host such personal vitriol though. when I think of my comments that are expunged, it says something about the running of this board that such spite is happily hosted.
Moderator, care to comment?
I cannot see that you are being treated harshly or unfairly and I note that there have not been any complaints from you through the "reported post" medium. If you have a complaint then direct it accordingly.
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So just to clarify things here Rainboe......
You take the stance that I'm alright Jack, this is AL's problem, anyway......I don't fly the airbus.
I don't know when you retired from BA, but I am in no doubt that BA pilots are payed above the market rate. So just imagine working for BA (overpayed as you were), to find that BA were dry leasing aircraft to some company to wet lease in return fom said company, whilst making some of your colleagues redundant (all under the banner of cost savings). I can only imagine what your response would be.
I don't knock people for working for AEU, or flying the A320 with them. These are horrible times, and I would do what was necessary to provide for my family. What I do find amusing is people like yourself (upstanding member of BALPA that you are) trying to defend the position of the company. A position I find totally indefensible.
Maybe you should join the IPF, their underhand tactics would suit you better. I hear they come highly recommended from the DHL pilots.
You take the stance that I'm alright Jack, this is AL's problem, anyway......I don't fly the airbus.
I don't know when you retired from BA, but I am in no doubt that BA pilots are payed above the market rate. So just imagine working for BA (overpayed as you were), to find that BA were dry leasing aircraft to some company to wet lease in return fom said company, whilst making some of your colleagues redundant (all under the banner of cost savings). I can only imagine what your response would be.
I don't knock people for working for AEU, or flying the A320 with them. These are horrible times, and I would do what was necessary to provide for my family. What I do find amusing is people like yourself (upstanding member of BALPA that you are) trying to defend the position of the company. A position I find totally indefensible.
Maybe you should join the IPF, their underhand tactics would suit you better. I hear they come highly recommended from the DHL pilots.
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.....did the first cuckoostraeus operated flight BFS - MUC, not get to destination, due to crew not being qualified in Low Visibility operations?
....appalling!!
....debasing the E.I. brand!
....appalling!!
....debasing the E.I. brand!