rhythm method

Smokie is quite correct, flybe are attempting to have the 3 year square bond applied as well...

...that square bond has pretty sharp edges... hope it doesn't hurt them too much when they are told where to shove it!

Sidings

ha! you really think ANYONE will join from BACON with a non reducing bond? Dream on pal! Even if we watch from the dole queue as Flybe goes under, we'll still have the last laugh.

In Oct Smokie wrote on this forum (regarding Flybe):
Says it all really

Smokie

I agree, FlyBe can't have their cake and eat it.
Somethings got to give.

matzpenetration

It is understandable that those of you at BACON are wary of working for Flybe. As an ex Q400 driver at Flybe I can testify that it is not the place to be if you are looking for a reasonable level of stability and a decent career structure. However, it has the potential to be a superb airline if they just make a few tweaks to the way they manage their workforce. This could be achieved with some assertive negotiation.

Negatives:-

1) Seniority list is not honoured and base / fleet movement was dependent on how much you were prepared to kiss a**s.

2) The basing policy always seemed to be give them what they don't want e.g. BHX locals forced to go to Scotland / BHD locals to Southampton etc...

3) No policy of T'prop - Jet. Some Captains told that they would be staying on Q400 regardless of seniority, line and sim performance.

4) Numerous roster changes and some unscheduled nightstops.

5) SBY 1hr from airport.

All the above could be addressed at little cost.

Positives:-

1) Great crews and a good working atmosphere.

2) Exeter is manned by people you can actually talk to.

3) Well maintained aircraft.

4) Decent training (unless you got sent to Toronto).

5) Rapid time to command.

6) Good turboprop salary.

7) Reasonable pension.

8) The company is serious about regional flying and invests accordingly.

9) The work patterns are not as demanding as BACON.

At one point nearly 10% of the workforce had handed their notice to move to Jet operators but this was mostly to do with unpredictable career progression.

I know many BACON guys are already being very critical of Flybe but the ones I have met and now work with at BA were so scathing about BA that surely another company is a bonus? The only way BACON could have been viable was to instigate sweeping reforms in terms of outsourcing and wage cutting to reflect the loco industry. I suspect BA did not have the stomach for that and selling was the easy option.

Flybe has the potential to be a great company to work for and if they had operated a Manchester base with a proper career structure I would never have left. As many have already said this is a merger not a takeover. Flybe needs pilots with experience to handle its expansion plans. Do your best to negotiate some sensible contract changes and it will be a damn sight more enjoyable than it was working for the Empire. If you all walk in thumping the table demanding BACON T&C's along with the same salary structure then JF will make life so difficult that the J31 at Eastern will suddenly seem very appealing.

I wish you the best of luck.

rhythm method

matzpenetration,

an excellent, constructive and unbiased post. I just wish I hadn't stooped to a lower level earlier in response to the previous idiocy.

I again say I believe that flybe probably can become a very successful airline, and if it gets it right, many may once again consider it as a career airline. For the guys that hang about to give it a go, good luck.

biddedout

Thanks Matz, a useful summary. Leaving aside the table thumpers on this forum, I doubt that the people who are offically thumping the table on our behalf are daft enough to not seek sensible compromises.



Talking of bonds Sidings. Now who was it who managed to clock up three type ratings and award themselves just about every training qualification under the sun in BACX/Con over just four years before jumping ship to a major competitor in Exeter without paying back a penny?

I’ll sign a bond but only if I see clear evidence that all pilots including managers and trainers are bonded too. Also, only if there is an independent system for verifying that they are being upheld fairly and the boys with the right sort of handshake aren’t being allowed to slip out quietly wallet intact.

Same goes for directors too, if Flybe does float then no cashing in of shares for at least five years without significant financial penalties. After all, bonds are about enforcing loyalty. Just as is always said to pilots - if you don’t leave, it will not cost you anything so what’s the problem? Same principle should apply to directors too. Might make them focus a little more on the long term.

Many of us have gone through several of these mergers / takeovers and despite being told each time by the buyer that we were previously a loss-making basket case going nowhere fast, former directors always ended up walking away with hundreds of thousands or millions in share options.

Take our almost recently departed MD for instance, 224,000 BA shares at over £4 each and a golden pension.

Funny old world!

Smokie

Come to FlyBe and it will be more of the same, funny handshakes, secret squirrels and golden parachutes for those who have shafted you from dawn 'til dusk and dusk 'til dawn again.

Don't get me started on the Shares Fiasco...........

apart from that, come on in, the water's .................................................
















full of Sharks

Thumperdown

Biddedout said

"Same goes for directors too, if Flybe does float then no cashing in of shares for at least five years without significant financial penalties."

Get real. Do you think that the directors are in the aviation business because the like looking out the window at you landing aeroplanes or collecting rego numbers?

They are there because if they get it right they can flog it off and retire to a carribean island to count their dosh. Some like Branson don't even need to flog it off

Part of the process is by chaining you to the aircraft with a bond, working you as hard as they can without you detracting from the profits by making a mistake and for as little wedge as possible .

biddedout

Thumper,

Ah, the equations of desired reward in aviation. Solve these simultaneous equations for a successful company.



Pilots = more pay + less work.
Managment = less pay + more work.






Senior mangers + directors = More and more and more and more .....converging to infinity as profit tends to zero.

Hudson Bay

Can someone explain why Flybe are introducing an non-reducing bond over 3 years?

Is the company that bad that they have to force Pilots to fly their aircraft? If they treated their pilots with the respect that they deserve nobody would leave. I wouldn't mind signing a bond if the salary was more than all of the other Airlines, but it is a fact Flybe are the worst paid Pilots in the country. £52 grand for a jet skipper. What an insult.

Thumperdown

Biddedout - Eureka, you've got it!!!
Go to the top of the class - but be careful - you could be a wealthy director soon and then we will all talk about you! but you won't care, you will be counting the dosh

rhythm method

Hudson, it is simply a form of shackles to attempt to force pilots to stay at flybe. It is a foolish attempt to address the phenomenal turnover in crew which they have experienced for quite some time now.

Instead of addressing the actual issues such as lifestyle, scheduling, morale, etc they impose a 'prison sentence'!

Thumperdown

It also negates the cost of training. If you leave you pay up and they use that to pay for the next guy - they don't really care whether you stay or leave. There are plenty of wannabes out there wanting that first job. BACON never used that principle because it was deemed unfair - another reason why the flybe crews will all benefit from importing some reasonable T's & C's

Uncle Silas

So did anyone hear Jim French on this radio programme, and if so, did he have anything of interest to say? Of interest to us rashers of bacon that is?

Torycanyon

Any of you Rashers expecting any of your T's & C's to be "imported", are in for a bit of a shock.

Uncle Silas

Can any of you chaps answer a straight question, or are you just interested in causing as much angst as possible? Doh! Stupid question - this is, after all a FLYBE pilot I'm talking about!!!!!!

biddedout

Yes Tory,

Would you not be interested for starters in inheriting all or part of our FDA / ODM / SESMA agrement? Works very well and is put together from the best of the agreements in the industry with our managments blesing and sponsorship. I am told that your system is not quite so well developed. There is no reason why your CC wouldn't have developed many of these policies themselves given time, but we might just have had a head start and the ability to use BA as a benchmark. Not always the best company to take a lead from , but at least we were able to pick and choose.

What about all the other policies and procedures? Do you have anything written down? If not, What do you want to do, tear all ours up and start all over again because they are BAcon and all the hard work that went into developing them has to be destroyed at all cost?

I saw some kind of Flybe policy to do with bonuses and bribes for not going sick. One day not flying with a head cold and you lose the lot. What's that all about. Does it apply to pilots too? If so, who signed up to that? We managmed to kick all that nonsense into touch when we proved that pilots had the best sickness record in the company. Guess which department was the worst? ...........................................HR

BluffOldSeaDog

Silas - http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/mainf...ive/weekendbiz and fast forward to 37minutes

BOSD

Thumperdown

Torycanyon

Do you object to "importing some reasonable T's & C's "

if so, why?

The Little Prince

I think my colleague is just over-reacting to some of the bolshier Smoky Bacon postings; of course we'd like more money, of course we'd like a tighter scheduling agreement - but you have to see that we're a bit shy of adopting any of the policies and procedures of a failed bankrupt airline, particularly when the employees of that failed and bankrupt airline, (now being effectively closed down by its owners), start TELLING us how things are going to be. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm just telling it like it is. I'm quite happy to listen to the two CCs, I'm quite happy to have suggestions made, I'm quite happy to welcome our new employees on board, as New Starters in the Flybe group, I'm even happy for them to be paid more than me in line with the TUPE legislation. However, even MY well known pearly smile will falter a little bit if and when our new joiners start to act as though they are in the driving seat, and start to pick and choose which parts of Flybe they will go along with, which bases and aircraft they'll fly, and how much money they'll require, and what conditions they'll work under. My hackles start to rise instinctively.
Like a lot of people on here, I've been through just a few career incarnations as airlines rise and fall, and I've never ever heard the likes of some of the Porkies being dealt out by the Baconeers. Talk about " Do unto others before they turn around"!
So come on chaps, let's behave a bit eh?