FlyBe to acquire BA Connect (Crew thread - no spotters)
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This is truly abysmal. Our reps duties include representing our interests and negotiating on all our behalfs. Not spreading false information and inducing a fight. Divide and rule is a management trick - we expect better of an elected CC rep. Grow up!
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Eh????
1. How does anyone know whether or not Fred Elliott is a CC member? That can be no more than pure guesswork, and I don't believe that a CC member would say things quite as provocative as Fred. Having said that, it could equally well be applied to many of the BACON and BACON Lite posters. I shan't cut & paste, because it would only inflame yet more people.
2. If I am the person being referred to as having said something "actionably libellous" then I question both the accuracy and the motive of that statement. I have spoken privately with an individual to whom I referred, and the various isues have been AGREED and we have moved on. However, I would have to question anyone seeking to muckrake things which were not anything to do with them, and which, in terms of being actionably libellous, would involve very large sums of money to proceed and prove. Exactly who is trying to achieve what here?????
Summary:
If you don't want to join Flybe - fine, go somewhere else.
If you do want to join, then please think how YOU would feel if the situations were reversed. Please be honest when you pose this question.
Think about whether, in all honesty, you think a seniority list will REALLY make much difference anyway, particularly given total numbers of hulls and likely basings.
Think hard about whether you REALLY believe that your postings here are any more than an exercise in venting your spleen. Do you HONESTLY believe, no matter how logicallly correct YOU think you are, that this forum will make the SLIGHTEST difference to the tactical and strategic planning of JF and WW?
Finally, remember it's not Flybe's fault your management are either so inept as to screw up where we succeeded, or so clever as to use you as ammunition in the cost-shedding of an unwanted BAR.
TLP x
2. If I am the person being referred to as having said something "actionably libellous" then I question both the accuracy and the motive of that statement. I have spoken privately with an individual to whom I referred, and the various isues have been AGREED and we have moved on. However, I would have to question anyone seeking to muckrake things which were not anything to do with them, and which, in terms of being actionably libellous, would involve very large sums of money to proceed and prove. Exactly who is trying to achieve what here?????
Summary:
If you don't want to join Flybe - fine, go somewhere else.
If you do want to join, then please think how YOU would feel if the situations were reversed. Please be honest when you pose this question.
Think about whether, in all honesty, you think a seniority list will REALLY make much difference anyway, particularly given total numbers of hulls and likely basings.
Think hard about whether you REALLY believe that your postings here are any more than an exercise in venting your spleen. Do you HONESTLY believe, no matter how logicallly correct YOU think you are, that this forum will make the SLIGHTEST difference to the tactical and strategic planning of JF and WW?
Finally, remember it's not Flybe's fault your management are either so inept as to screw up where we succeeded, or so clever as to use you as ammunition in the cost-shedding of an unwanted BAR.
TLP x
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And no argument at all from me on that last TLP post. Again, I now publicly ask anyone who has copies of the post refered to to delete them. No action will ever be made over it and TLP and I are now better aquainted on the same wavelength and mention of this serves nothing except to cause trouble at a time when we need unity and calm to let our CC sort out our futures for the better.
So, a reasonable idea, if you don't have anything useful to say, don't. If you no longer work for BA Connect or Flybe, by all means browse, but please refrain from posting here, your comments are often neither useful or wanted and for the common good, only serving and current BACON and Flybe crew should continue to post here.
If you are working notice and are leaving either company, good luck and well done.
Finally if you want to sh1t stir, PLEASE go to Jet Blast and vent your spleen there.
So, a reasonable idea, if you don't have anything useful to say, don't. If you no longer work for BA Connect or Flybe, by all means browse, but please refrain from posting here, your comments are often neither useful or wanted and for the common good, only serving and current BACON and Flybe crew should continue to post here.
If you are working notice and are leaving either company, good luck and well done.
Finally if you want to sh1t stir, PLEASE go to Jet Blast and vent your spleen there.
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Wacky, Ghengis, Sheik, Bluff,
and others from BACon.
Fred Elliot voiced what many pilots in Flybe think. He doesn't work for you or BACon.
You might not like his posts, but lots of Flybe pilots do. A cheap stunt to silence him or our CC won't change Flybe pilot opinions re seniority.
FB
and others from BACon.
Fred Elliot voiced what many pilots in Flybe think. He doesn't work for you or BACon.
You might not like his posts, but lots of Flybe pilots do. A cheap stunt to silence him or our CC won't change Flybe pilot opinions re seniority.
FB
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anotherflapoperator
Firstly, none of us need take instructions from you about whether we contribute to an open topic on a public forum. If you want privacy, take it somewhere else.
Secondly, many people who have worked for either company in the recent past, are amply qualified to comment on the situation. Other who may be contemplating working there may also have something to say.
It is sad and painful watching some of the BACON folk desperately hanging on by their fingernails to the notion that they can rescue their T&Cs from this mess. You have been badly let down and we all feel for you. However, human nature being what it is, the flybe folk, probably to a man, do not want their own career paths disrupted by your imminent presence. You would be no different if the roles were reversed. In the same way, JF is never going to sign up to a deal that will end up costing him a fortune over the years ahead - long after the BA cash has been spent. I'm sure BA don't want to see the value of their stake diminish, either.
It would be nice to think that the whole thing could be sorted out by the CCs over a pint or two, but of course there is too much at stake for that. In the end, the decision will be taken at EXT and there will be a lot of angry people on one side or the other.
It is very difficult to come to the bargaining table when you have nothing to bargain with, and you already know what is going to happen if this all becomes too hard for JF. It helps to be realistic.
If you no longer work for BA Connect or Flybe, by all means browse, but please refrain from posting here
Secondly, many people who have worked for either company in the recent past, are amply qualified to comment on the situation. Other who may be contemplating working there may also have something to say.
It is sad and painful watching some of the BACON folk desperately hanging on by their fingernails to the notion that they can rescue their T&Cs from this mess. You have been badly let down and we all feel for you. However, human nature being what it is, the flybe folk, probably to a man, do not want their own career paths disrupted by your imminent presence. You would be no different if the roles were reversed. In the same way, JF is never going to sign up to a deal that will end up costing him a fortune over the years ahead - long after the BA cash has been spent. I'm sure BA don't want to see the value of their stake diminish, either.
It would be nice to think that the whole thing could be sorted out by the CCs over a pint or two, but of course there is too much at stake for that. In the end, the decision will be taken at EXT and there will be a lot of angry people on one side or the other.
It is very difficult to come to the bargaining table when you have nothing to bargain with, and you already know what is going to happen if this all becomes too hard for JF. It helps to be realistic.
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If we have no bargaining position, tell me exactly why is it that JF is so very keen to "reach agreement with us"..........
Possibly because he has a better grip on employment law than some of you do?
May I respectfully suggest.
Possibly because he has a better grip on employment law than some of you do?
May I respectfully suggest.
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He means he'd rather reach agreement with you and be friends than have a fight with you, but, if it does come to a fight, there will be only one winner.
Employment law? Irrelevant until the shape of the takeover (IF there is one) is known.
If the cost of reaching agreement is higher than the benefits of the takeover, he will just sit back until BA have handed you all your P45s, and then accept your applications for employment. Employment law and TUPE are then equally irrelevant, as neither will apply.
Now, perhaps you could explain to us all exactly where the strength of your "bargaining position" lies?
Employment law? Irrelevant until the shape of the takeover (IF there is one) is known.
If the cost of reaching agreement is higher than the benefits of the takeover, he will just sit back until BA have handed you all your P45s, and then accept your applications for employment. Employment law and TUPE are then equally irrelevant, as neither will apply.
Now, perhaps you could explain to us all exactly where the strength of your "bargaining position" lies?
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Ladies!
While there's been a fair bit of gobbing off on both sides here, it is the attitude of the 'militant' Flybes that strikes me as the most incongruous. Not that it really matters, of course!
This 'we're coming to your rescue so you ought to be thankful' stuff is not going to wash.
This deal may NOT come off and IF it DOES come off it will be because it is in FLYBE's interest for it to happen. In other words the chief benefactor is Flybe. So lets not pretend it's some sort of charitable or altruistic merger. Bacon has stuff that Flybe wants and if a deal ain't cut then it's not getting it, which is going to be a downer for Flybe.
Now there are other ways that Flybe can expand, ie without Bacon but they will take a lot longer and delay the big payout the leaders are so looking forward to when they float the new big Flybe.
Therefore, clearly, Bacon HAS a negotiating position- not as strong as Flybe's of course, but it HAS a position nonetheless.
It also has a position should the merger NOT go ahead. And although the outcome could be poor it might be 'better' in some ways for us than the merger- indeed , as someone else pointed out, BAcon may even continue for a while if not indefinately.
Before someone suggests I live in La-La land could I point out a couple of factoids?
1. Bacons profit/loss situation is by no means irrecoverable. (£30m down to £6m in less than one year).
2. The REAL motive behind this 'deal' is NOT the disposal of Bacon but the winding up of BA's out station staff. And NOTHING is going to stop that now. This is where BA make the real saving and that saving would help Bacon were it to continue!
3. The flights have been very busy- which could lead one to the conclusion that the 'Connect' product is doing quite well.
If I was on the CC, I'd be taking a firm line.
While there's been a fair bit of gobbing off on both sides here, it is the attitude of the 'militant' Flybes that strikes me as the most incongruous. Not that it really matters, of course!
This 'we're coming to your rescue so you ought to be thankful' stuff is not going to wash.
This deal may NOT come off and IF it DOES come off it will be because it is in FLYBE's interest for it to happen. In other words the chief benefactor is Flybe. So lets not pretend it's some sort of charitable or altruistic merger. Bacon has stuff that Flybe wants and if a deal ain't cut then it's not getting it, which is going to be a downer for Flybe.
Now there are other ways that Flybe can expand, ie without Bacon but they will take a lot longer and delay the big payout the leaders are so looking forward to when they float the new big Flybe.
Therefore, clearly, Bacon HAS a negotiating position- not as strong as Flybe's of course, but it HAS a position nonetheless.
It also has a position should the merger NOT go ahead. And although the outcome could be poor it might be 'better' in some ways for us than the merger- indeed , as someone else pointed out, BAcon may even continue for a while if not indefinately.
Before someone suggests I live in La-La land could I point out a couple of factoids?
1. Bacons profit/loss situation is by no means irrecoverable. (£30m down to £6m in less than one year).
2. The REAL motive behind this 'deal' is NOT the disposal of Bacon but the winding up of BA's out station staff. And NOTHING is going to stop that now. This is where BA make the real saving and that saving would help Bacon were it to continue!
3. The flights have been very busy- which could lead one to the conclusion that the 'Connect' product is doing quite well.
If I was on the CC, I'd be taking a firm line.
Last edited by brain fade; 9th Dec 2006 at 10:59.
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Remoak, your logic fails me.
If someone has no bargaining or negotiating position, you do not bargain or negotiate with them. You tell them to take it or leave it.
So why is JF seeking to negotiate with us if he can do what he likes?
Answer. Because he has to.
Without wishing to seem patronising may I explain a basic principle of Company/employment law.
Flybe have agreed to purchase 85% of the share capital of BA Connect. The projected completion date is 22nd December (we are told).
As at that date we remain employees of bA connect and ALL our EXISTING contractual terms and conditions maintain thereafter UNLESS and UNTIL we collectively agree (through Balpa) something different.
That means that thereafter JF can no sooner reduce our Ts and Cs than our present managers can. Should they, or he seek to do so then he would be up to his neck in Industrial Tribunals and High Court applications.
So, put simply my friend, unless we agree a replacement set of terms and conditions, integration between our two work groups does not take place!
That is our bargaining position, wether or not you like it.
JiM French can always walk away from the deal before he completes it.
However unless his rejection is as a result of a highly technical due diligence item, Flybe would be absolutely crucified with the penalty sums it would have to pay BA for failure to complete.
Wouldnt do JF's status with his shareholders or the City much good I suggest.
If someone has no bargaining or negotiating position, you do not bargain or negotiate with them. You tell them to take it or leave it.
So why is JF seeking to negotiate with us if he can do what he likes?
Answer. Because he has to.
Without wishing to seem patronising may I explain a basic principle of Company/employment law.
Flybe have agreed to purchase 85% of the share capital of BA Connect. The projected completion date is 22nd December (we are told).
As at that date we remain employees of bA connect and ALL our EXISTING contractual terms and conditions maintain thereafter UNLESS and UNTIL we collectively agree (through Balpa) something different.
That means that thereafter JF can no sooner reduce our Ts and Cs than our present managers can. Should they, or he seek to do so then he would be up to his neck in Industrial Tribunals and High Court applications.
So, put simply my friend, unless we agree a replacement set of terms and conditions, integration between our two work groups does not take place!
That is our bargaining position, wether or not you like it.
JiM French can always walk away from the deal before he completes it.
However unless his rejection is as a result of a highly technical due diligence item, Flybe would be absolutely crucified with the penalty sums it would have to pay BA for failure to complete.
Wouldnt do JF's status with his shareholders or the City much good I suggest.
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Tory/ Beaver.
No. The penny has not dropped!
For your info it hasn't dropped with the CC either.
And it won't be dropping soon.
IT IS NO TAKEOVER WITHOUT A DEAL!
No deal- No Dice!
Flybe negotiates or it's no deal- it's THAT simple.
But of course Flybe knows this and they will happily negotiate for the best outcome- For the company, not you!
Thank goodness there are some sensible heads on the CCs. If it was up to you guys there would be zero prospect of this going ahead.
As it is, it probably will, but agreement is a long way off.
I'm particularly sceptical about the 22 Dec date. I've been told they've got next week together though so here's hoping!
I hope to not be coming BTW and there seem to be more and more similarly inclined.
Lets face it. The only reason (but it is a good one) anyone would willingly work for Flybe is to work near to where they choose to live.
There are few other attractions!
No. The penny has not dropped!
For your info it hasn't dropped with the CC either.
And it won't be dropping soon.
IT IS NO TAKEOVER WITHOUT A DEAL!
No deal- No Dice!
Flybe negotiates or it's no deal- it's THAT simple.
But of course Flybe knows this and they will happily negotiate for the best outcome- For the company, not you!
Thank goodness there are some sensible heads on the CCs. If it was up to you guys there would be zero prospect of this going ahead.
As it is, it probably will, but agreement is a long way off.
I'm particularly sceptical about the 22 Dec date. I've been told they've got next week together though so here's hoping!
I hope to not be coming BTW and there seem to be more and more similarly inclined.
Lets face it. The only reason (but it is a good one) anyone would willingly work for Flybe is to work near to where they choose to live.
There are few other attractions!
Last edited by brain fade; 9th Dec 2006 at 11:47.