GW1

I fly with too many chubby non-fit F/Os who complain about changing 60 to something higher. I often wonder if they will even last to 60! I'm 58 and I'm cruising along while some of these younger-types are nodding off in the right seat.

It's not AGE that matters. It's fitness and competence.

Quietachiever

You guys do not seem to realize that the airlines screw up your lives but they do not pick up the pieces of broken marriages and kids on drugs etc.
Get real and post some meaningful info that might help the industry.

flufdriver

Well fellow aviators and others, here is how it looks to me,

I work for an airline that does not provide a pension, but since I knew that from the day I got hired I have made provisions. Like everyone else, I've suffered my setbacks and enjoyed some good breaks with my investments.

Further, I have taken care of myself healthwise, now I find myself approaching 60 in good health, my parents still living and in their mid 80s, there is a good chance that I'm going to live to a 100 and perhaps more. So far so good, I guess I need about 2 million $ to produce a return of 5% per annum to live in my present style, again managable.

Now my health insurance is tied to my job, the moment I stop working full time my insurance is gone! Unless the young ones that come up behind me are willing to pay the premiums that allow me and my dependants to continue to be covered at an affordable cost to us, then I need to work a bit longer to compensate for the astronomical rise in the cost of health care.

The other thing is that for the past 40 years I have worked just about continously, if I stopped now suddenly, it would probably kill me, of course the good part is that I wouldn't need the extra money then, but suppose it only incapacitates me, then I would really be in deep dodo.

For there is no worse crime then to be helpless and broke.

So. if I can, I will work just a little longer thank you!
Fluf

old fart

Gentlemen,
I am chasing my tail on the question of foreign pilots operating into the USA.
Can anyone provide chapter and verse on the following?
Is the Captain of a non USA registered carrier allowed to operate into and out of the USA if he is over 60??
Many thanks

flufdriver

Old Fart: my understanding is:

Yes, a Captain can operate into the US when over 60, irrespective of aircraft registry as long as s/he does not operate under FAR part 121 or 135, which are scheduled air carrier operations. Usually that means that you're ok if you Captain a private or corporate aircraft operating under part 91.

What I am exploring right now is how all that applies to FAR part 129 operations, which is the foreign air carrier equivalent to part 121 and involves Ops specs issued by the FAA to each specific foreign carrier. Looking through part 129 on crewmember licensing requirements, it simply states that the crewmember must be appropriately licensed by the state of registry. In my case the state of registry allows ATPL holders to operate scheduled air carrier operation as PIC up to 63 (currently being reviewed)

This is what I have found out so far,there may be more to it but I haavn't gotten to that yet.

Fluf

old fart

Thanks flufdriver,
Keep up the investigation!
Best regards

Wingswinger

Isn't that the status quo?

Ysatis

How lovely of you... just one more gentleman from this great island of yours quoting on pprune... I love you all the more for all the insults you are capable of.

old fart

Hi Chaps,
From the FAA in Washington. Each foreign carrier operating into the USA has an "issuance and applicability" letter (A001) which specifies the rules under which they may operate. This is part of the letter for my company.

The foreign air carrier shall not use the services of a pilot in command, nor shall any person act as a pilot in command, in any of the following operations under the authority of these operations specifications, if that person has reached his/her 60th birthday:

(1) Scheduled international air services carrying passengers in turbo-jet-powered airplanes;

(2) Scheduled international air services carrying passengers in airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than nine passenger seats, excluding each crewmember seat;

(3) Nonscheduled international air transportation for compensation or hire in airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than 30 seats, excluding each crewmember seat; or


However, they say that when the ICAO norm changes in Nov then they will probably accept the new norm.(65) Not guaranteed however.

This is part of the e-mail that I was sent by the FAA.and the contact for the lady concerned.

"I'll try to remember to copy you on
any information we get about possibly changing the ops specs requirement
once the new ICAO standard becomes effective in November. If you don't
hear anything then, you may want to get a status update."


Marlene Livack, Manager
International Operations and Standardization Branch, AFS-52
Flight Standards International Programs and Policy Division
1-202.385.8141 Phone
1-425.830.6065 Mobile
1-202.493.5888 Fax

So that would seem to be that.
The USA will probably change to age 65, for foreign licensed pilots on foreign registered aircraft,operating under part 129, when the ICAO norm becomes 65 at the end of the year.
Cheers.

flufdriver

Thanks, Old Fart

That sounds like good info, I have not yet come across that letter at our outfit. Probably didn't ask the right question! I do now!

How refreshing! I must have seen at least 10 or more constructive comments on Pprune recently. That is soo much better then trying to belittle and insult each other which many of us are so good at.

regards,
fluf

highcirrus

The Chairman of the Civil Aviation Medical Board, Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore, has recently indicated that, following the International Civil Aviation Organization’s adoption in March 2006 of a “standard” to increase the upper age limit for airline pilots to 65 becoming effective on 23 November 2006, the Singapore Government will speedily enact prepared legislation by December 2006 and that henceforth the upper age limit in Singapore will become 65.

The Chairman also gave us to understand that the FAA had dropped its objection to over 60 pilots in command and that most ICAO contracting states would hence fall into line.

Flying Guy

Anybody know the latest on this issue regards the US position? Are they going to submit to over 60 guys working for foreign operators to fly in and out of of the US? I believe the rule goes in effect November 23.

Romeo 87

In answer to Flying Guy's question on the over 60's in the US and having read the ICAO annex, my view is that all foreign commanders will be permitted to operate into any country, including the US. They will probably limit their own citizens to 60 though, as will the French.
So here's to the old boys and November 23rd!!!

MercenaryAli

Quote: ICAO Approves Pilots Over Age 60
The International Civil Aviation Organization adopted a “standard” to increase the upper age limit for airline pilots to 65, effective November 23. But the measure is limited to two-pilot crews when the other pilot is younger than 60 years of age. An ICAO “standard” is a mandatory minimum requirement and member states must notify ICAO if they are going to impose a more restrictive limit. Of 112 ICAO member countries responding to an ICAO letter, 83 percent indicated that an international age limit above 60 years would be appropriate for airline pilots. However, 16 percent–which includes the U.S.–indicated a preference to maintain the current upper age limit of 60 years, citing possible safety risks and a lack of convincing data that flying after age 60 is safe.
---------------------
But how about some evidence that flying AFTER the age of 60 is UNSAFE. There is none!

backofthedrag

I heard that the French DGAC had until July 17th this year to file a difference to the ICAO ruling , coming in at the end of the year, that commanders may fly to age 65 . I can't see anything on the DGAC website. Anyone have any info ?

BOAC

Lots on PPrune about over-60's and France if you search. I understand from one of those threads that they and Italy have filed 'exceptions' but the line is that this can only apply to those countries' licence holders. We wait to see.

dusk2dawn

If they file 'exceptions' it will be valid only for their own nationals:

apu hunter

Age limit for flight crew
Amendment 167 to Annex 1
The ICAO Council adopted on 10 March 2006 an amendment to Annex 1 — Personnel Licensing that increases by five years the upper age limit for commercial pilots operating two-pilot aircraft. The new provisions become applicable on 23 November 2006 and read as follows:
2.1.10.1 A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, shall not permit the holders thereof to act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 60th birthday or, in the case of operations with more than one pilot where the other pilot is younger than 60 years of age, their 65th birthday.
2.1.10.2 Recommendation.— A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, should not permit the holders thereof to act as co-pilot of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 65th birthday.
Practical effects
Article 33 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation (signed in Chicago, it is often quoted as the "Chicago Convention") limits the international recognition of flight crew licences to those who are in full compliance with the Standards of Annex 1 (note that paragraph 2.1.10.1 is a Standard). As a result, until 23 November 2006, even if an individual State authorizes a pilot-in-command (PIC) to fly in commercial air transport operations when over the age of 60 (65 from 23 November) that authorization can only be given for flights within that State's national airspace. This is because no State can force another State to accept its own deviation from an ICAO Standard. Article 33 does not apply to the co-pilot as paragraph 2.1.10.2 is a Recommendation, not a Standard.
Articles 39 and 40 of the Convention are also relevant to the age limit of pilots-in-command engaged in commercial air transport operations as they authorize international flights by flight crew who do not meet all international licensing Standards, provided that an authorization is given by each State into which the aircraft is operated.
In practice, this means that if a pilot in command is under the age specified in paragraph 2.1.10.1 (60 years at present and 65 from November 2006) he cannot be prevented by reason of age from operating into any ICAO Contracting State. Further, once he has reached the specified age, he may still operate as PIC, subject to certain conditions:
his/her national Licensing Authority permits it; and,
operations are undertaken only in national airspace; unless,
another State has given specific authorization that such flights are permitted in its airspace.
A State may wish to impose a lower maximum age limit than that specified by ICAO in 2.1.10.1. It may do this for the licenses it issues, but, as stated above, it cannot prevent an aircraft operated by a PIC holding a licence from another State, who is below the ICAO upper limit, from operating in its airspace.
For co-pilots, since paragraph 2.1.10.2 is a Recommendation, not a Standard, the upper age limit is set by the national Licensing Authority which can choose to impose any national age limit on the licenses it issues, as there are no international restrictions based on age for co-pilots.
When over 60, a six-monthly medical examination will be necessary (ICAO specifies an annual medical for those under 60 years who are engaged in two-pilot operations). For single-pilot commercial air transport operations, the upper age limit remains at 60 years.
Most of the States that have authorized their pilots to fly as pilot-in-command in commercial air transport operations after they reach the age specified in 2.1.10.1 also authorize pilots holding a license issued or validated by another States to fly in their own airspace under the same condition. However, ICAO does not collect information on States authorizing pilots to fly in their airspace after reaching the age of 60 and cannot provide information on the subject. Pilots seeking such information are advised to contact individual Civil Aviation Authorities.

SLATS_EXTEND

Cool! I can't wait until those approaching 65 push to have it extended to age 68!

Fly 'till you die!

Outstanding!


NOT!


Cheers, Bill

parabellum

Well Slats, be fair, giving us back the retirement age of 65 is only returning to us what was rightfully ours anyway but arbitrarily taken away from us, without just cause, early seventies.