skol

Wing Commander,
If you read my posts you would see that I don't believe we all descend into mental incompetence at 60yrs and 1 day. I'm nearly 60 myself but suggest there is a need to ensure older pilots are up to the job physically and mentally and not needing someone to hold their hand.
I know of 2 cases where older pilots used prescription medicines to lower their blood pressure prior to medicals, and on single pilot air transport ops tell me that's not a worry.
You fly with them.

P.S. The smart ones leaves the air force when they're Flt. Lts, not Wing Commanders.

HeavyDog

The way the pensions are unfolding, the 'throw em in the skip' age should be raised to at least 70.
Just cant help myself but just visualize, F/O's on walkabout getting run over buy their captain & planes aimously roaming around the aprons crashing into the perimeter fencing!

flown-it

It's think this has been aired before on other PPRUNE threads so I stand by to be flamed, but here goes.....how many times have you flown with a younger bloke who could barely get in the cockpit? How many 40 year olds have you seen in your outfit out on medicals with grounding conditions? It's not about age anymore.. it's how fit you are and at nearly 62 I'd stack myself and many of my age group against all comers any day. Oh, and as someone hinted. Experience does not come out of a book. Neither does common sense and to see the current crop pressing buttons faithfully as directed by the company SOPs And before the flamers take aim.. I flew by the book..I also used 40+ years to consider when the book was less than appropriate.
Fire away.

skol

flown-it
As I've said before I'm nearly 60 myself, but you wont find many here who want to talk about how to weed out errant elderly pilots. It's all about 'what's in it for me'. A significant percentage of our brethren are notoriously greedy. As someone previously said you don't get any speedier as you get older. All I've tried to bring to the debate is how you address the old pilot syndrome. In some countries pilots can fly on Air Transport Ops to any age(even single pilot). In Japan they prohibit over 60's flying together on Air transport Ops
Experience is fine and I've done 40 years flying but sooner or later we're all going to end up on the back end of the drag curve.

chuks

Ooh, hit a nerve there, did I? Sorry about that, all of you who successfully fended off hordes of Russian tanks with your F-4s, Buccaneers and what-not. I am sure many of my adopted neighbours in Greater Germany have good cause to be grateful to you one and all.

I was on the other side of the globe fighting off the 'Chinese Communist East Germans' as Staff Sergeant Mendoza had explained it to us before taking bayonet practice. 'The spirit of the bayonet is to KILL!' But I was lucky to get to use a screwdriver instead. Such is life. Still got shot at, though, for what that was worth.

But looking at it from a different perspective, first I had the dubious pleasure of living on an Air Force base for two years as a member of the US Army. Then once I was getting my life semi-sorted out I tripped over not one but several Air Force retirees who seemed to think themselves the Alpha and Omega of general aviation. As stated, they used their relatively comfortable financial positions to make things rather tough for guys like me just trying to get ahead.

I wouldn't doubt that there's no place for me in some of your cockpits but that's okay boys, I'm a Captain too! Oddly enough, I have found myself able to share MY space with some ex-Air Force guys, Royal Air Force, not Real Air Force, but never mind. We try to hold to a broad church out there in the Third World.

I get rather testy with people who seem to think it clever to take advantage. That goes for the young ones who think it's great to see older guys forced to walk the plank, never seeming to think they, too, may end up in that position. (Unless you name is Peter Pan, perhaps.) And the crusty old ones who think no one can be any good unless they have done at least 20 years in the military can be just as annoying in the opposite direction! If we are lucky we get to live and learn.

I am a bit puzzled by this seeming jibe about my Nigerian ATPL. (Not ATLP, ALTP, APLT or whatever. It's only four letters so do try to get that right.) What, you think someone would claim to have one of those who didn't? I was not aware this is such a prestigious thing, so that I guess I had better source a Jiffy bag for it. Good thing I didn't mention my FAA Commercial Glider license, I guess, or you would have thought I was really putting on the dog! How about the German AllegemeineFunksprechZeugnis (Unrestricted Radio License)? Did a test and everything for that one, I did. AND it has my picture on it! Shall we have a bout of willy-waving, just to spice up this rather pointless discussion?

If the EU does indeed remove the Age 60 restriction then we won't be able to bitch and moan about this artificial restriction to the right to work as pilots. Then, I assume, it will be down to meeting the required standards, just like everyone else. Some of us seem to have a problem with that.

knavesmire

I think you`ll find BA pilots have to retire at the age of 55, unless European legislation changes this. As I`ve said before, there could well be "opt out" clauses by the Co., if the Govt. allows them to do this. As other airlines have set a precedent (some are subsidiaries of BA), to work beyond 55, I fail to see what "opt out" excuses they could possibly use. Although it will cost BA to keep everyone employed for longer (all sections within the airline, not just pilots), cost cannot be used as a reason, from what I`ve read so far.Those of you who currently work beyond 60, should think yourselves lucky that you can.

bear11

some well-made points - for me, experienced is something to be respected, rather than being thrown out with the trash.

However, not one person here has mentioned the reason most airlines are delighted to offload pilots at a certain age. It's about wage discrimination, rather than age discrimation - and, possibly, attitude discrimination. Look at it from a bean-counters view; you cost a fortune after working your way through the ranks and seniority and pay levels over the years. You also come from an era where pilots were respected and given in to on many factors which also cost money, and your younger brethren are more, eh - flexible in their attitudes (I do realise that's a generalisation!). You could safely say that the reason airlines like BA will keep pilots over the old 55 limit is because they have to given circumstances, because the costs would be savage. Any culling of flight staff you see in an airline will always begin with the oldest pilots - if they can get away with it, it's the law of the jungle.

I know many older pilots who do ferry work or work independently as TREs or SFIs and make a decent living, including having free time rather than working round the clock. But, how realistic is it to expect that an airline will continue to pay their higher earners if they can replace them with cheaper and more flexible people who do the same job at the end of the day?

ZQA297/30

Chuks, the reason for the perceived jibe about Nigerian ATPL/ALTP is that a couple of years ago there was considerable discussion here on the "liberal" issuance policy of the Nigerian Civil Aviation dept. Some even went so far as to allege that they had purchased said licence for the equivalent of about $50.
So there is still some scepticism about such licences, justified or not.

chuks

Ah, I missed that, about the Nigerian license. Well, I did mine way back in 1981. Upon production of an FAA ATP and subject to passing an Air Law test and a type technical exam (on a Cessna 402) and getting a Nigerian Class I flight physical one was issued with a Nigerian ATPL. Licenses issued in this way had a different numbering sequence to the ones that were issued to Nigerians who had graduated from the air training college at Zaria having done a full course ab-initio.

Actually, I did fly with this one character who, despite holding a license, seemd to know very, very little about flying. We went off empty one day when I decided to check out his basic handling skills in a Cessna 441.

I leveled off at FL140 and gave him the aircraft. A bit of straight and level to start with and then I asked him for a 30-degree banked turn to the right. We started banking left. I said, 'I want you to make a right turn.' Steeper bank to the left. 'I want to see a RIGHT turn. You are turning left!' Then I gave up on that one and took the airplane back.

In the de-brief, what there was of it, he 'explained' that in the MiG-21 the attitude indicator 'read backwards.' Well, it's true that Russian practice is to nail the horizon down and make the little airplane move around relative to the big airplane but there we were in clear air with him briefed to fly the aircraft by visual references. I got the definite impression that he had told some big porkies about his flight experience in order to get that license.

And there was a documented case of someone being caught with a totally fake license and a job as an FO for the then-national carrier, Nigeria Airways.

But, despite what you guys may believe, not everything in Nigeria runs by fraud and corruption. Sometimes a guy has a license because he fulfilled all the ICAO requirements for that license. There are plenty of highly skilled Nigerians working in the UK in aviation, actually. And a few in the States as well, come to that.

I do like to wind people up a bit, now and then. High on my target list is annoying, ageist twerps but I don't mind expending a bit of left-over ammo on the odd retired Air Force guy. Just a sick punk at heart, I guess. Never failed an airline interview because I never even bothered to try for one. Sad, eh? And here all I am moaning about is being shut out of the market for whatever's going. If I cannot find a job back in Africa and have to settle for an airline job in the EU, so be it. And if the guy in the left seat is some retired Air Force puke then I shall just speak highly of the three flavours of ice cream available at the Tan Son Nhut enlisted men's canteen, I suppose. Navy, I could talk about how Mom and Dad were both in the Navy. 'Horses for courses,' eh? But I doubt it will come to that.

beamer

Personally after thirty years in the air I cannot wait to call it a day and live some form of normal life - however, mortgages, university fees etc will require me to last until 60 assuming medical status remains ok - after that please turn the lights out for me because I've gone. Don't get me wrong its been a lot of fun but slowly more mundane areas of lifestyle become ever more important !

Wingswinger

Isn't this all rather pointless? Come 01 Oct 06 a new dawn will break, in Europe at least. What sort of dawn we wait to see. In the meantime, it seems sensible to me for everyone to concede that we are all different.

Skol thinks being an "old" pilot is a "syndrome" and that pilots who wish to fly beyond 60 are greedy. I beg to differ. Are doctors, dentists or lawyers who wish to work beyond 60 greedy? Are they deserving of inane comments such as "get a life"? Are they suddenly incompetent? Answers: Maybe, maybe not;no;no.

I agree with others who have opined that age has little to do with it. Over 60s who struggle a bit may have been none too sharp in the first place. I shall retire when the licensing authority lifts my licence, whether that be for medical reasons or failure to pass an LPC or I finally hit the statutory age limit whatever that is or I have enough money if sooner. That's it.

Abel Coelho

Age 60 rule

Commerce Committee Approves Legislation to Amend the Age Restriction for Pilots Senate.gov ^ November 14, 2005? Sen. Ted Stevens

Posted on 11/18/2005 1:35:09 PM PST by Paleo ConservativeWashington, D.C. –


The U.S. Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee today approved a substitute amendment offered by Senator Burns to S. 65, a bill to amend age restrictions for pilots, by voice vote. The bill was introduced by Senator James Inhofe (R-Okla.).
Since 1960, federal regulations have specified that individuals age 60 and older may not serve as airline pilots on any commercial flights. The European Joint Aviation Authority (JAA) permits airline pilots to fly up to age 65, but also requires that another pilot on the flight be age 60 or younger. The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) has proposed adopting a worldwide standard based on the JAA standard.
The Burns substitute directs the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) Secretary to adopt the ICAO standard or recommended practice within 30 days after the ICAO acts on the matter. ICAO is scheduled to consider the measure in November 2006. The DOT is only authorized to adopt the new modification if it is consistent with the previously agreed upon Air Navigation Commission directive which allows commercial carrier pilots-in-command to fly up to their 65th birthday, if the co-pilot is 60 years old or younger.
As in the underlying bill, the Burns substitute allows pilots, who have previously been terminated or had a cessation of employment at a commercial air carrier because of the Age 60 restriction, to seek re-employment at a commercial air carrier. However, pilots cannot file suit to gain re-employment and cannot file suit to reclaim seniority under any labor agreement in effect between a recognized bargaining unit for pilots and an air carrier engaged in commercial operations.
The substitute requires the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) to submit a report to both Senate and House authorizing committees of jurisdiction concerning the effects, if any, the age modification change has on aviation safety.
The bill now proceeds to the full Senate for its consideration.
Unquote:

PRO65

Davaar

[quote= If it is just a job, become a Lawyer.
.[/QUOTE]

In 1599 there was a case (Bruce v Hamilton) "In Commendam" before the Court of Session in Edinburgh. One litigant was a friend of King James VI. The case was going against the King's friend, so "... the King came in person to the Tolbooth and persuaded the voting against Mr Robert and in a manner commanded it". "The King being there is his contrary was angry and raged at it..."

"The President [Lord President Seton] stood up ... and [told the King]that he was their King and they his subjects .... but that in the matter of law and conscience, being sworn to justice, they would do as their consciences led them".

If the King tried to force them otherwise, said the President, he would " ... pen [the judgment] in Latin, French and Greek to be sent to all the judges in the world to be approved, and that by his vote it shall never be reversed. And so say the whole Session [that is, the fifteen Lords of Session]"

This to a 16th century monarch who believed in Divine Right. Just a job, you say? For the past forty years Lord President Seton has been watching over my shoulder.

arabianmd11

Just wondered why you were laid off?

Flying Guy

It was a mystery (at first) to a lot of us. Check airman, people on 3 year "fixed contracts," people who had loyally worked for the company for 7 or more years were chopped.

Then we realized, it was all done by age. They sorted the three seats by age and chopped the oldest guys in descending order. More than 100 guys were chopped including yours truly.

skol

Wingswinger,
As I've said several times I'm nearly 60 myself.I did not say pilots who want to fly past 60 are greedy, but there is as, we all know, including you, that there is a lot of greed and backstabbing in our ranks.
Doctors, in some ways are similar to pilots. People might suspect incompetence but do little about it to avoid controversy and the possibility of being wrong. A doctor in this part of the world, responsible for checking cervical cancer slides was way past his use by date. The unfortunate consequence was a lot of women lost their lives.

Wing Commander,
I don't fly boxes either Wing Commander, self loading cargo, but given the hassles with the punters and the occasional drama with cabin crew I'd say flying boxes has a lot going for it.

How much do you need to retire?

Wingswinger

That may be a rhetorical question but its underlying sentiment is heavy with judgemental sarcasm. One comes across this from time to time, often attached to ignorant criticism of other peoples' ability, or lack of ability, to so organise their personal affairs in order to effect a graceful departure when their juniors demand it.

I refer to my earlier post: We are all different. We have different needs, desires and ideas. It is for the individual to decide when he or she has enough money to fund the rest of his or her life. When I started my career, I thought I'd be retired from it at 55. I am not. That I am not is in part due to my misfortune, in part due to the current UK government's thieving tax policies and in part due to poor investment returns. I will review matters again when I approach 60 and it may well be that I need to carry on. I want that option. So I reiterate: I shall retire when the law requires it or sooner if I calculate that I have enough money.

Hotel Charlie

What does old doctors or other landbound desk opperating people have to do with this anyway?
Reaction time and quick decision making is not as important when youŽre sitting at desk as when your running an aluminium tube through the air at 450 kts. DonŽt get me wrong! I wouldnŽt want a 63 year old i the ER either (donŽt think youŽll see any there either!).
If you want to keep on working become ground/sim instructors where your vast experiance is very usefull and your reduced reaction time not fatall

Wingswinger

Think yourself lucky you're in Norway. Comments like that will get you arrested in The EU after 01 Oct.

Wing Commander Fowler

Skol - how much do "I" need to retire.......? Would think it sensible to have the house paid for as I don't have a worthwhile pension and the state one ain't gonna pay the repayments! I'd be bereft of my duties if I left the family with no house wouldn't ya think?