Age 65 - New ICAO provision... MERGED THREADS
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Right on, parabellum, the younger folks can move right over for us 'older' guys.
Now, having said this, I'm only interested in the L10, something younger dudes turn their nose up at.
Gosh....they've missed the good 'ole days.
Now, having said this, I'm only interested in the L10, something younger dudes turn their nose up at.
Gosh....they've missed the good 'ole days.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Many threads all over PPrune on the same topic, now most in here. See also
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=230964
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=223827
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=220547
and doubtless others for those who wish to search
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=230964
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=223827
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=220547
and doubtless others for those who wish to search
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FAA considering ICAO Age 60 Rule Changes
New FAA Forum to Review Age 60 Rule For Pilots
WASHINGTON, DC — Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Administrator Marion C. Blakey today established a forum of airline, labor and medical experts to recommend whether the United States should adopt the new International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) standard that will allow one of the two pilots in the flight deck to be over age 60. The forum also will determine what actions would be necessary if the FAA were to change its rule.
“The FAA must ensure that any future rule change, should it occur, provides an equal or better level of safety to passengers,” said Blakey. “I’m looking forward to hearing from the experts so the FAA can make informed decisions as the ICAO standard is implemented and Congress considers this issue.”
Since 1959, the FAA has required that all U.S. pilots stop flying commercial airplanes at age 60. In November, ICAO, the United Nations’ aviation organization, will increase the upper age limit for pilots to age 65, provided that one of the two pilots in the cockpit is under age 60.
The Age 60 Aviation Rulemaking Committee has been tasked to complete its work within 60 days. Committee members will represent airlines, pilot unions, medical experts, and the FAA.
WASHINGTON, DC — Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Administrator Marion C. Blakey today established a forum of airline, labor and medical experts to recommend whether the United States should adopt the new International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) standard that will allow one of the two pilots in the flight deck to be over age 60. The forum also will determine what actions would be necessary if the FAA were to change its rule.
“The FAA must ensure that any future rule change, should it occur, provides an equal or better level of safety to passengers,” said Blakey. “I’m looking forward to hearing from the experts so the FAA can make informed decisions as the ICAO standard is implemented and Congress considers this issue.”
Since 1959, the FAA has required that all U.S. pilots stop flying commercial airplanes at age 60. In November, ICAO, the United Nations’ aviation organization, will increase the upper age limit for pilots to age 65, provided that one of the two pilots in the cockpit is under age 60.
The Age 60 Aviation Rulemaking Committee has been tasked to complete its work within 60 days. Committee members will represent airlines, pilot unions, medical experts, and the FAA.
Overall Position
Cost Benefit Analysis
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Benefits to the Government?
So changing the 'Age 60' rule will not benefit the Government (footnotes to last post). Who cares? It should benefit me, and anyone else no longer enjoying that first flush of youth!
I was amused to see some sort of safety case raised, by pointing out that there have been no age-related accidents since the 'Age 60' rule was imposed. Gee, were there a whole lot of them before the FAA imposed that rule? I don't think so! I have never seen anything to refute the notion that it was imposed without any particular case being made for it, perhaps even as a big favour to the head of American Airlines by the then-head of the FAA for whatever reason other than safety.
If we want to get all ageist then perhaps we should cut waaay back and start yanking licences at age 50, say. After all, look at all those (relatively) young guys out of work, thanks to 9/11 or perhaps bad management or even a simple over-supply of pilots. Human nature being what it is a 30 year-old would be thrilled to see the over-50s get the chop, for at least 20 years! The logical conclusion to this process would be for anyone a bit younger to have the automatic right to replace anyone a bit older if you accept that age taken by itself is a risk factor. We could end up with a pilot population in its 20s!
I was amused to see some sort of safety case raised, by pointing out that there have been no age-related accidents since the 'Age 60' rule was imposed. Gee, were there a whole lot of them before the FAA imposed that rule? I don't think so! I have never seen anything to refute the notion that it was imposed without any particular case being made for it, perhaps even as a big favour to the head of American Airlines by the then-head of the FAA for whatever reason other than safety.
If we want to get all ageist then perhaps we should cut waaay back and start yanking licences at age 50, say. After all, look at all those (relatively) young guys out of work, thanks to 9/11 or perhaps bad management or even a simple over-supply of pilots. Human nature being what it is a 30 year-old would be thrilled to see the over-50s get the chop, for at least 20 years! The logical conclusion to this process would be for anyone a bit younger to have the automatic right to replace anyone a bit older if you accept that age taken by itself is a risk factor. We could end up with a pilot population in its 20s!
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chuks
I could not have said it better ! 
However read and digest the following which are ALL from prominet and learned medical folks.
____________________________________________________________ __________________
Department of Occupational and Environmental Medicine, The Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, MD, USA.
CONCLUSION: There appears to be no medical, scientific, or safety justification for the Age 60 Rule. As such, perpetuation of the Age 60 Rule, where age alone is used as the single criterion of older pilot fitness, represents age discrimination in commercial aviation.
2. A prominent study of age and airline pilots, the Hilton Study. The study “supports the conclusion that an age 60 limit for pilots is not defensible…” and found “no hint of an increase in accident rate for pilots of scheduled air carriers as they neared their 60th birthday.” The report concluded that the age for airline pilots could safely be raised.
3. Dr. Susan Baker, of Johns Hopkins University, wrote: “…there is no scientific evidence to support the Age 60 Rule. From 1991 until 1993, I served on a panel of experts appointed by the FAA to oversee the FAA-sponsored research by Hilton Systems. This research, at a cost of well over a million dollars, found no basis for the Age 60 Rule and recommended that the age limit be increased…I would rather fly with my life in the hands of a 64 year old captain than with a 29 year old pilot flying as captain.” (that made me smile alot)
4. Dr. Stacy Vereen of the Civil Aviation Medical Association wrote that the association “supports the concept that pilots operating under FAR Part 121 [airline pilots] should not be forced to retire from piloting duties based solely on attaining age 60.”
However read and digest the following which are ALL from prominet and learned medical folks.
____________________________________________________________ __________________
Department of Occupational and Environmental Medicine, The Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, MD, USA.
CONCLUSION: There appears to be no medical, scientific, or safety justification for the Age 60 Rule. As such, perpetuation of the Age 60 Rule, where age alone is used as the single criterion of older pilot fitness, represents age discrimination in commercial aviation.
2. A prominent study of age and airline pilots, the Hilton Study. The study “supports the conclusion that an age 60 limit for pilots is not defensible…” and found “no hint of an increase in accident rate for pilots of scheduled air carriers as they neared their 60th birthday.” The report concluded that the age for airline pilots could safely be raised.
3. Dr. Susan Baker, of Johns Hopkins University, wrote: “…there is no scientific evidence to support the Age 60 Rule. From 1991 until 1993, I served on a panel of experts appointed by the FAA to oversee the FAA-sponsored research by Hilton Systems. This research, at a cost of well over a million dollars, found no basis for the Age 60 Rule and recommended that the age limit be increased…I would rather fly with my life in the hands of a 64 year old captain than with a 29 year old pilot flying as captain.” (that made me smile alot)
4. Dr. Stacy Vereen of the Civil Aviation Medical Association wrote that the association “supports the concept that pilots operating under FAR Part 121 [airline pilots] should not be forced to retire from piloting duties based solely on attaining age 60.”
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Conversation with Marlene Livack of FAA
Okay everybody,
Earlier in this topic someone posted the phone number for Marlene Levack of the FAA. I phoned her and left a message on her answering machine. I was pleasantly surprised when she phoned me back this morning. We had a nice conversation about the subject.
She says that the the FAA will be publishing their position on this matter very soon. It sounds positive (if you favor flying up to age 65) for international operators but it is NOT DEFINITE as she stressed in our conversation until it is "put in print and posted."
She mentioned she is besieged by calls right now on the subject so we made a deal. I told here I would post this here if she would let me know the moment there is an official decision made on the matter. She agreed. That may avoid some phone calls to her . I will post the decision here in this forum as soon as I hear from her. So, if you are subscribing to this thread, you don't need to call or write her.
She is a real nice lady by the way. I am always impressed when someone in a government bureau actually takes the time to speak with a "concerned citizen."
Earlier in this topic someone posted the phone number for Marlene Levack of the FAA. I phoned her and left a message on her answering machine. I was pleasantly surprised when she phoned me back this morning. We had a nice conversation about the subject.
She says that the the FAA will be publishing their position on this matter very soon. It sounds positive (if you favor flying up to age 65) for international operators but it is NOT DEFINITE as she stressed in our conversation until it is "put in print and posted."
She mentioned she is besieged by calls right now on the subject so we made a deal. I told here I would post this here if she would let me know the moment there is an official decision made on the matter. She agreed. That may avoid some phone calls to her . I will post the decision here in this forum as soon as I hear from her. So, if you are subscribing to this thread, you don't need to call or write her.
She is a real nice lady by the way. I am always impressed when someone in a government bureau actually takes the time to speak with a "concerned citizen."
Last edited by Flying Guy; 18th Oct 2006 at 06:00.
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if the machinery of government moves as fast as I think it will most of us will need wheelchairs to get to the flight deck by the time this one gets through. How fast do you think 'Congress will consider this issue'?
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To me it proves that pilots are actually a flock of stupids.Everybody in other professions stuggle fiercely to get a lower age of retirement . Just the smart pilots want to fly till die...
Umbelievable !!!!!!!!
Umbelievable !!!!!!!!
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Duane Woerth(less)
Duane Woerth(less) has been established as Co-Chairman of this committee. He is adamantly against increasing the age limit. He is predisposed and totally intransigent on this subject – putting him in this position on this committee is a farce.
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Q & A from the FAA
A friend of mine recently sent me the following question, sent to the FAA and the answer they received.
I suspect each foreign airline may therefore need to get the FAA to issue an amendment to their foreign operator’s certificate once a formal announcement is made.
Question:
On the 23rd of November 2006 the ICAO recommendations change with regard to the maximum age a pilot can be in command of a commercial airliner. As a signatory to ICAO can the FAA confirm that individual's licensed to fly a commercial airliner by a country other than the USA will be able to operate in US airspace providing the other pilot in the flight deck is under the age of 60?
Answer:
The FAA is aware of the International Civil Aviation Organization’s (ICAO) pending change to the Age 60 Rule. Its decision to increase the recommended pilot retirement age to 65 does not mandate that the member nations’ adopt that standard as their own. The current ICAO standard allows pilots to fly over the age of 60 up to 65 as long as the pilot in command is under the age of 60. The FAA allows these pilots to fly into and out of the United States and its territories. The ICAO change would allow a pilot, including the pilot in command, to fly beyond age 60 until age 65 as long as the other pilot is under age 60. We do not foresee any problem accommodating ICAO member nations who permit their pilots to fly until age 65 and wish to fly into and out of the United States.
I suspect each foreign airline may therefore need to get the FAA to issue an amendment to their foreign operator’s certificate once a formal announcement is made.
Question:
On the 23rd of November 2006 the ICAO recommendations change with regard to the maximum age a pilot can be in command of a commercial airliner. As a signatory to ICAO can the FAA confirm that individual's licensed to fly a commercial airliner by a country other than the USA will be able to operate in US airspace providing the other pilot in the flight deck is under the age of 60?
Answer:
The FAA is aware of the International Civil Aviation Organization’s (ICAO) pending change to the Age 60 Rule. Its decision to increase the recommended pilot retirement age to 65 does not mandate that the member nations’ adopt that standard as their own. The current ICAO standard allows pilots to fly over the age of 60 up to 65 as long as the pilot in command is under the age of 60. The FAA allows these pilots to fly into and out of the United States and its territories. The ICAO change would allow a pilot, including the pilot in command, to fly beyond age 60 until age 65 as long as the other pilot is under age 60. We do not foresee any problem accommodating ICAO member nations who permit their pilots to fly until age 65 and wish to fly into and out of the United States.
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Not sure if Duanne was taking his position for political reasons or it is his true feeling on the subject. In any case it may not matter because Duanne was ousted as ALPA President today.
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Long overdue
Now that he’s ousted – I see further reason to remove him from this committee.
We are now in a situation where most foreign airlines (in fact all but India that I know of – and some recruiters are claiming that US pilots are only qualified to 60 there as well) that would hire retired US pilots, maintain that our FAA rules prevent us from using our licenses oversees beyond 60. The ultimate absurdity is that the FAA now claims that US pilots are unsafe to land on US soil while foreign pilots are safe – go figure.
LL
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It's Official
I just received the word from Marlene Livack from the FAA. Here is what she says, and I quote directly from her e-mail,
"The FAA is going to modify the Part 129 ops specs paragraph A001f to remove the current restriction for Part 129 operators except for those flying "N" registered aircraf, see FAR 61.3j. On November 23, pilots and Part 129 air carriers would be expected to conform to new ICAO standards."
"We plan to have the operations specifications revised and issued so as to be effective concurent with the ICAO effective date."
That's it. If you are flying a non "N" registered aircraft under ICAO standards, you will be able to fly as commander up to age 65 in the US starting Nov 23.
"The FAA is going to modify the Part 129 ops specs paragraph A001f to remove the current restriction for Part 129 operators except for those flying "N" registered aircraf, see FAR 61.3j. On November 23, pilots and Part 129 air carriers would be expected to conform to new ICAO standards."
"We plan to have the operations specifications revised and issued so as to be effective concurent with the ICAO effective date."
That's it. If you are flying a non "N" registered aircraft under ICAO standards, you will be able to fly as commander up to age 65 in the US starting Nov 23.
Last edited by Flying Guy; 20th Oct 2006 at 06:28.
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Age Discrimination
At the end of April this year European Air Transport, a member of the DHL-Airlines in Europe terminated the contracts of 9 pilots over the age of 60 with respect to overflying restrictions over France and Italy.
During the weeks following, some were offered shaky deals to get their contracts extended to the end of 2006 and the conditional offer to go on until 65 provided the French and Italians fall into line with ICAO regulations coming into effect November 23rd by the latest.
However, 2 out of 9 did not accept this offer and another 2 did not receive any offer.
Now European Air Transport is desperatly short on captains owing to an abnormal amount of attrition and now starts to employ 60+pilots and contract pilots who might not be aware of the situation.
It is an act of solidarity not to accept employment with EAT under these circumstances!
During the weeks following, some were offered shaky deals to get their contracts extended to the end of 2006 and the conditional offer to go on until 65 provided the French and Italians fall into line with ICAO regulations coming into effect November 23rd by the latest.
However, 2 out of 9 did not accept this offer and another 2 did not receive any offer.
Now European Air Transport is desperatly short on captains owing to an abnormal amount of attrition and now starts to employ 60+pilots and contract pilots who might not be aware of the situation.
It is an act of solidarity not to accept employment with EAT under these circumstances!
Will I be working, When I'm 64..
I am not clear what the new situation will be.
Does anyone have reliable information?
Does anyone know what the position of France and/or Italy will be?
Will I still be employable after 60?
Does anyone have reliable information?
Does anyone know what the position of France and/or Italy will be?
Will I still be employable after 60?
Transparency International
End of discussion [about France at least]
French AIC 13/06:
http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv....2006_13_EN.pdf
SUBJECT: Age limit of captains
Air users are informed that the validity of the Aeronautical Information Circular A 21/00 dated 17 August 2000 and entitled “Age limit of captains” will end on 23 November 2006.
Air users are informed that the validity of the Aeronautical Information Circular A 21/00 dated 17 August 2000 and entitled “Age limit of captains” will end on 23 November 2006.
Last edited by dusk2dawn; 27th Oct 2006 at 12:18.
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Eu Anti-discrimination Law
Lufthansa pilots complain against retirement with 60.
It is the first case - and that is particularly delicate. With reference to the new anti-discrimination law three captains complain against Lufthansa, because they want to fly up to the age of 65 years. Even the pilot's union is against a later pension entrance age - for safety reasons.
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,446013,00.html
It is the first case - and that is particularly delicate. With reference to the new anti-discrimination law three captains complain against Lufthansa, because they want to fly up to the age of 65 years. Even the pilot's union is against a later pension entrance age - for safety reasons.
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,446013,00.html
Transparency International
Well, even the frenc gave up on this one. How about a little addendum to JAA-FCL 3 about geriatric performance requirement ? ( Then I could retire early )
)