skol

I get to fly with over 60's on a regular basis. Lucky me. I just did a trip with a guy who can't get the vhf right and several times called the wrong runway.
Others spend half the night asleep. How come I get to do my job as well as theirs?
I keep hearing the expression "I'll know when it's time to retire", but unfortunately they don't.

411A

>>I just did a trip with a guy who can't get the vhf right and several times called the wrong runway.
Others spend half the night asleep. How come I get to do my job as well as theirs?<<

Gosh Skol, I have recently flown with a few like this, only they are clearly under sixty and are firmly attached to the RHS.
Gee, I wonder why?

skol

There are always going to be a few who aren't too sharp but the proportion in the over 60 bracket is exponentially higher. Most are there for the ride in the RHS, have no promotion to look forward to and some have problems. No money, no life etc.

chuks

This sort of topic just brings out the best in folks, doesn't it?

Whatever happened to that fellow who used to crow here about the idea of getting rid of all the older pilots as sad losers who had messed up their lives and wouldn't get out of the way of the younger ones? I don't know if he really was a pilot but he sure was a wind-up artist. Gatwickdrizzle come back!

I think the idea of age discrimination is a bit annoying, per se. And when some twerp feels, just because of my DOB, that I must be past it for whatever fun is going that really gets up my nose. Well, never mind, there are jerks in every field of human endeavour and flying is no exception.

If I can believe what I read in the trade rags then there is some sort of pilot shortage developing. Perhaps circumstances will force a relaxation of this 'Age 60 and out' rule here in certain EU countries. I don't have my hopes up for that, expecting politicians to be fair and reasonable, especially French ones, but they may be dragged to that, kicking and screaming.

I just got back to reality after so long spent working in West Africa and I still don't have a handle on it. But it would seem that, what with the crap standards for education nowadays and one thing and another, that anyone with his head on straight must be able to come up with some reasonable way to earn a crust.

To be locked out of the cockpit is terribly annoying, perhaps, but there are many other ways to be useful and productive nowadays.

chuks

I think this little problem of age discrimination has many different origins. It supposedly got going back about 50 years ago when the then-head of American Airlines needed a stroppy group of older pilots sorted out, so that he had a quiet word with his friend the head of the FAA. No sooner said than done: we got the 'Age 60 Rule.' Things were much simpler in those days, of course. In the context of the times this was not seen as anything grossly out of order.

Here and now it's not really helpful to blame the French, per se, for what's going on. Some EU countries are more responsive to pressure from special interest groups than others. Germany, for instance, changed their laws on the conversion of foreign licenses after some bleating from 'Cockpit' about Yankees coming to take their jobs. Well, that's the explanation I got from a friend who pays for his haircuts by the number of sides shorn, so...

Compared to working for a living, working in aviation is still a pretty good deal. If I cannot get this or that job due to my DOB, well, tough. And if some snivelling little sh1te wants to gloat about how his way into that left seat shall be made smooth by having the incumbents taken out behind the hangar and shot, so to speak, let that just speak to the class of such a person. Hey, maybe they need that way to get ahead! This is not going to be my problem.

Take the Positivist approach. Every morning you look into the shaving mirror and repeat, 'Every day in every way, I am getting better and better.' Some Frenchman thought this one up, I believe, but what the heck.

skol

I am well aware all this has been aired to death before, but apparently some think that any barrier to 'fly 'til you die' is age discrimination. I have no objections to flying over age 60 per se but there needs to be some checks and balances put in place and so far there aren't. And since I am in the left seat I have no axe to grind promotion-wise. These guys are F/O's.
I vehemently object to having to do someone elses job for them.
I have lots of personal experience with over 60 pilots, some excellent but quite a few are really struggling.
I mentioned this to a doctor who has some influence in these matters and his advice to me was, "if there is a problem with these chaps you will have a talk to them and they will take themselves off to a medical practitioner for a reappraisal".


Yeah, right!

skol

And since worthy Wing Commander Fowler thinks I am a tit then I am sure he will have some very good advice for us all on how you convince a financially strapped pilot who's not performing too well that it's a good time to throw in the towel.
While I'm on the subject I visited a port a few months back and on the notice board at flight planning for the viewers to contemplate was a crew manifest of a SFO-HKG flight. The purser was born in 1921.
Where do you draw the line in the sand?

CorpoRat

Well said, well put and I agree with you completely.

skol

Corporat
You and Flying Guy are the sort I dread at contract negotiation time. The dudes that would pay the company to go to work.

H.Finn

Amazingly, Skol, my salary has steadily increased together with my number of years. Would you please inform me and other colleagues here at what age can we expect it to start decreasing?

ZQA297/30

Hah! Now I get it, you're all a bunch of socialist, state-protected, wet-necks.
Good old capitalist supply and demand is the way to go.
If we can cut the mustard at 60 plus, and someone is willing to hire us, then get out the way young man, capitalism is at work.



(Tongue only partly in cheek)

chuks

When I was scrounging around for jobs in General Aviation the bane of my life was old Air Force pukes who had retired on a nice, fat government pension plus cheap stuff from the PX, health care and all that sort of stuff civilians in low-paying jobs could only dream about. They formed an immovable layer of scum in many GA companies, willing to work for peanuts just to fill in a few more lines in the log book plus crapping from a great height on low-life, civilian-trained beginners who presumed to think that anyone not ex-Air Force might have also have a place in aviation.

You might just have a point about age discrimination, come to that. Remove the 'Age 60' rule and open the floodgates to that! Eek! Okay, okay, I go sell garage door openers.

handflying

Flying guy quotes:

I am 62, lift weights then ride a bicycle 7 miles everyday I am home - at an average speed of 15 MPH. I wonder if you could keep up?


Working for Air Atlanta when is that "everyday I am home"??? So you work out a couple of days....every 2 months? How fit!!

Pirate

Lateral thinking here. Perhaps we should get rid of all pilots under the age of, say, 38. As a group they have few social graces, little classical education and don't know what knife to eat their peas off in the Mess. Don't get me started on GPS addiction.

F104G

I am CPT and TRE with a large german airline und in the age of upper 50īs. When I was young and had a knife between my teeth, I was sure to retire as early as possible. But as I was getting older, my feelings were becoming different. Why should I retire and than stress the nerves of my wife and have the prettiest yard in the neighborhood, while I am well capable in physics and in flying performance?
During line and simulator checks I see poor behavier in every age group. Sure, there are some older captains with problems, but these problems do not come when passing 60, they are imminent long before that.
EU regulation is allowing us to work up to 65 in the cockpit and I am glad about it.
My observation is, that many Pilots are also happy with this development and use this opportunity.
In general, experience in our company is positiv with pilots up to 65.
These colleges, who start bitching about older captains, are sitting on the right side generally and speculate for the left seat only.

handflying

Age discrimination will allways exist as long as you use a limit. I explain: whether the limit is 60 or 65 age discrimination is by definition saying that the person who is 60 years is less fit then the one who is 59 and 364 days.

From that point of view the only matter to consider is should there be a limit?

Some people seem to be of the opinion that the only limit is the medical...

P.S. (In Japan I think some people are still fit at 110? In some years we might meet in the cockpit.)

Wing Commander Fowler

Skol - it's not my place to do that any more than it is yours to criticise "ALL" over 60's! I venture to suggest (if I may be so bold) that you are either left seat in an aeroplane you feel you should have "moved on from" some time ago or right seat and feeling your time for the left is here and now...... Well my friend, in any case, you are where you are and you will have to deal with it! I think it is generally accepted that our minds do not speed up with advancing years but I have met a few 60 year olds who are quicker thinking than some young guns. Please don't tag all people at 60 as incapable of doing a damn fine job! It is not nice and it's certainly not wise......

fantom

[QUOTE=chuks]When I was scrounging around for jobs in General Aviation the bane of my life was old Air Force pukes who had retired.
Interesting...
A holder of a Nigerian ATLP (it is claimed) living in Germany (where I was stationed flying my F4 in the defence of Europe) bleating about old Air Force pukes.
If I were you, sunshine, I would keep quiet for a while.

Carolus Rex

Well, I don`t see how anybody in his right mind would want to fly 1 hour past his 60th birthday - to me even 60 is too long.( No, I`m not a F/O wanting to get into the LH seat, but a senior captain in my mid fifties flying longhaul for a major airline). Having spent my whole life driving airplanes around the globe, I just have enough of endless nights in the cockpit, being away from my family and hotelrooms. I`ll quit at the age of 57 and really look forward to a few years of quality life. Statistically`, most long haul pilots won`t live to 70 anyway.

Wing Commander Fowler

........ and Rex - you are perfectly entitled to your opinion! I'm sure there are many in a similar position to you and I wish I were able to be in with you all. I, however am in the unfortunate position of having to work beyond 60 (in some form or another) or should I say I project that I shall need to work beyond 60 should I be fortunate to live that long, in order to provide for my lovely family. I have no problem seeing both points of view here but take exception to those with the arrogance to condemn those at a certain age! Live and let live eh? I firmly believe that if you are good at your job then there will be a position available for you out there. I also hope that gravity will also prevail in preventing some tits reaching a level of their own incompetence hehe!

Chuks - an immovable layer of scum in general aviation???? I do hope you remain in general aviation! There's certainly no place for you in a flight deck I occupy! At least we have a pair now...... Yet another tit!

Fantom - thankyou for doing your bit to keep the Russian whores (sic) at bay! This from an ex navy "puke"