'Will work for free'
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'Will work for free'
Thought some of you might be interested in some musings of mine posted on another forum in regards to this topic:
I've been flying for over 36 years and right now is just about as bad as I've ever seen it for pilot employment worldwide.
One of my pilot friends says that we are our own worst enemies when it comes to pay and working conditions. Pilots who offer their services for free are just at the extreme end of the continuum. The other extreme is pilots lucky enough to be employed at long-standing airlines with strong trade unions and mature contracts. Somewhere in between is the majority of professional pilots, i.e. the rest of us.
As long as professional flying remains a "glory" profession, there will always be a surplus of pilots and many anxious newcomers that are desperate to start their career. This means that employers will continue to have the upper hand in the negotiation of wages and working conditions.
And one other thing......
Over the years I have seen a few disturbing trends such as the proliferation of training bonds and pilots who are paying for their own endorsements. I'm sure for the individual pilots this may have seemed an appropriate maneuver to get a "leg up on the competition" or to "jump start their careers" and for the individual concerned, this has probably proved an effective strategy.
Unfortunately, the cumulative result is that these strategies eventually become the norm to the detriment of all professional pilots and to the advantage of operators.
The same can be said about pilots that are willing to exceed duty days, overload aircraft, operate poorly maintained aircraft and operate without appropriate crew rest.
Many junior pilots today operate in an environment and working conditions more closely identified with indentured servitude.
I've been flying for over 36 years and right now is just about as bad as I've ever seen it for pilot employment worldwide.
One of my pilot friends says that we are our own worst enemies when it comes to pay and working conditions. Pilots who offer their services for free are just at the extreme end of the continuum. The other extreme is pilots lucky enough to be employed at long-standing airlines with strong trade unions and mature contracts. Somewhere in between is the majority of professional pilots, i.e. the rest of us.
As long as professional flying remains a "glory" profession, there will always be a surplus of pilots and many anxious newcomers that are desperate to start their career. This means that employers will continue to have the upper hand in the negotiation of wages and working conditions.
And one other thing......
Over the years I have seen a few disturbing trends such as the proliferation of training bonds and pilots who are paying for their own endorsements. I'm sure for the individual pilots this may have seemed an appropriate maneuver to get a "leg up on the competition" or to "jump start their careers" and for the individual concerned, this has probably proved an effective strategy.
Unfortunately, the cumulative result is that these strategies eventually become the norm to the detriment of all professional pilots and to the advantage of operators.
The same can be said about pilots that are willing to exceed duty days, overload aircraft, operate poorly maintained aircraft and operate without appropriate crew rest.
Many junior pilots today operate in an environment and working conditions more closely identified with indentured servitude.
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..........and the point is that contract flying worldwide is currently "trashed".
Seasonal Contracts with companies in the Europe and Africa area are paying half what they did a year ago and outlook for the future doesn't look good. I have done the unthinkable after 7 years of 6 to 8 month contract work worldwide....I've taken a permanent position in the Middle East. Basically can't afford to work for the current wages being offered on short term contracts.
Found, in the last 4 months, pilots working transport category F.O. contracts for USD 1800 per month with Captains being offered as little as 3K. One check airman contract for the MD-80 is paying 3500 per month for 85 hours before any overtime.
Wonder if the "contractors" are still charging the customer the same and just paying less as per the market. Can't trust the "maggots" as per ACASS for example.
Seasonal Contracts with companies in the Europe and Africa area are paying half what they did a year ago and outlook for the future doesn't look good. I have done the unthinkable after 7 years of 6 to 8 month contract work worldwide....I've taken a permanent position in the Middle East. Basically can't afford to work for the current wages being offered on short term contracts.
Found, in the last 4 months, pilots working transport category F.O. contracts for USD 1800 per month with Captains being offered as little as 3K. One check airman contract for the MD-80 is paying 3500 per month for 85 hours before any overtime.
Wonder if the "contractors" are still charging the customer the same and just paying less as per the market. Can't trust the "maggots" as per ACASS for example.
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Supply and demand. Do you think contract pilots are the only professionals seeing pay rates half what they were a year or two ago? Ask any IT or telecom contracter!
It's the real world. Rates will go back up when airlines need pilots again. That's not now - they're 10 a penny today.
It's the real world. Rates will go back up when airlines need pilots again. That's not now - they're 10 a penny today.
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In 1977 i flew Beech 18's part time at a skydiving club in California...every weekend some young buck would come there and offer to fly for free to build hours...and the manager/ owner would promptly throw them out on their ear...nowadays the supply is there...the demand, somewhat diminished...so it's bound to happen.....in all industries...not just flying..
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>>Why do the Brits work for so much less then [sic] Americans?
from an earlier thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...&threadid=2332
Also, from the thread above The Guvnor said, rather prophetically, in May 2001:
>>If, for argument's sake, one of the US majors were to either go into Chapter 11 or even Chapter 7, you'd have a massive glut of skilled pilots on the market - again. In that scenario, salaries would nosedive as supply once again outstrips demand; and people like you who want the earth will remain grounded.<<
from an earlier thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...&threadid=2332
Also, from the thread above The Guvnor said, rather prophetically, in May 2001:
>>If, for argument's sake, one of the US majors were to either go into Chapter 11 or even Chapter 7, you'd have a massive glut of skilled pilots on the market - again. In that scenario, salaries would nosedive as supply once again outstrips demand; and people like you who want the earth will remain grounded.<<
Last edited by Airbubba; 3rd Oct 2002 at 19:42.
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Salaries
Yip A300guy is just right. I used to work on B727´s as F/O for a VIP operator. I got over 130K a year easy add the tips and this was around 150k or so. I am lucky to work for a ****outfit in Africa that pays when they want to and very little when they finally do. I can pay for my own uniforms and medical, travel and insurance as well as proficiency checks. But then I am lucky to have a job.... Still I did not consider myself lucky so I resigned and got a new job. Not one pilot should work for free or under conditions like those mentioned. I took a big risk when I quit. One needs to have a job to get a job and to keep current.
One could say that there are professional pilots some on the shiny side of the sky and well the others on the wrong side. It hard to get a place in the sun.
One could say that there are professional pilots some on the shiny side of the sky and well the others on the wrong side. It hard to get a place in the sun.
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I see it from a self esteem point of view. Not in a cocky way but if individuals don't value themselves that much then why would the "employer".
Note that "employer" is used losely since some will actually PAY to work
Flight International couple of weeks back, a company advertised for a "time building programme" up in Scotland.
A seneca for £75/hr. Cheap I hear you say but then the requirements were:
CPL/IR, Multi Engine, Dangerous Goods, CRm, Fire and Safety. errr... Is it me or sounds more like an advert for a Single pilot job ??? Except it cost money of course.
Outrageous but legal 
Note that "employer" is used losely since some will actually PAY to work
Flight International couple of weeks back, a company advertised for a "time building programme" up in Scotland.
A seneca for £75/hr. Cheap I hear you say but then the requirements were:
CPL/IR, Multi Engine, Dangerous Goods, CRm, Fire and Safety. errr... Is it me or sounds more like an advert for a Single pilot job ??? Except it cost money of course.
Outrageous
but legal
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In my opinion, there'll always be someone desperate enough to fly for free...not saying its a good thing or a bad thing, but I guess you've got to do what is necessary to get you where you want to be because if you don't some other guy will!
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I was on the airline operations side of the fence for a time and now find myself newly qualified as a pilot experiencing all the head aches that I previously really didn't give two hoots about.
Sorry but thats the harsh reality of the aviation industry, airlines take on pilots that fit the profile, hours and age limits. If I now have to work for peanuts for a period in order to meet those requirements then what chioce do I have in order to me my career aspirations.
The older wiser guys out there that can look back on there career and the industry and its demise, I really to understand your point of view but what choice to low hours guys have? Go back to our previous job, let the large investment in the training go to waste? I find it morally wrong what type of bonding arguments airlines offer, especially the one I just came from.
But if offered the position I will take it – if you were being truthful you would also given your time again?
Sorry but thats the harsh reality of the aviation industry, airlines take on pilots that fit the profile, hours and age limits. If I now have to work for peanuts for a period in order to meet those requirements then what chioce do I have in order to me my career aspirations.
The older wiser guys out there that can look back on there career and the industry and its demise, I really to understand your point of view but what choice to low hours guys have? Go back to our previous job, let the large investment in the training go to waste? I find it morally wrong what type of bonding arguments airlines offer, especially the one I just came from.
But if offered the position I will take it – if you were being truthful you would also given your time again?
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Idiots? Creative and independant individuals, more like!
What is the difference between paying for an instructor rating or a B757 rating? I will tell you, the answer is absolutely nothing.
Yet paying for an AFI / QFI rating is perceived as acceptable, paying for a B757 rating is not.
I admire anyone who has had the intelligence to do just that little bit more to get ahead. After all, who is he or she responsible to other than themsleves and their families.
So go and get that rating, go and work for nothing (if it enhances your chamces of better employment later) and above all, don't listen to these whiners and whingers on this thread.
Yet paying for an AFI / QFI rating is perceived as acceptable, paying for a B757 rating is not.
I admire anyone who has had the intelligence to do just that little bit more to get ahead. After all, who is he or she responsible to other than themsleves and their families.
So go and get that rating, go and work for nothing (if it enhances your chamces of better employment later) and above all, don't listen to these whiners and whingers on this thread.
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Well A300dude, If you've been flying 36 years, and this is as bad as you've ever seen it... then you must have had a pretty soft easy going career (and you must be retired from it now to see how the other half live). Have a chat with some "blue team" canuck sometime if you want to earn a real tear. Enjoy retirement man and put your feet up.
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The situation now is not dissimilar to that in the early nineties. I qualified just after the Gulf War and had to start an aerial phot company to keep my licence ticking over. To get a job I had to borrow notes, self study for type exams and then spend dosh on a rating. The companies were only interested in type rated pilots. I got a freelance night freight job with the company I paid cash for the type rating (!!!!) £80 per hour and some experience and then got a pax job with a small regional on the same type. That company had 146's so 3 years later with experience on the 146 I got into BA. That all took 6 years from getting my licence. It was hard work, cost money and took time. To anyone lecturing us about not looking after ourselves, you were either sponsored or had a rich daddy to look after you. It was worth it but if I hadn't pushed myself and probably disadvantaged someone else where would I be now.
Don't come down on people trying to look after themselves and don't expect them to sacrifice a potential career for some ideal that it only takes one person to break to be worthless. Good luck to everyone looking for a job, I know how it feels, stick with it, it WILL be worth it in the end.
Don't come down on people trying to look after themselves and don't expect them to sacrifice a potential career for some ideal that it only takes one person to break to be worthless. Good luck to everyone looking for a job, I know how it feels, stick with it, it WILL be worth it in the end.
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Well said!
Well said, I cannot agree more.
From the date that I signed the first cheque to the training organisation, to sitting in a jet, it took about the same length of time, six years.
Now, despite my username (Oh, and the location is a bit of a sidewinder too!) I am sitting on the port side of an A330 for a major flag carrier and enjoying the view.
Do I ever think of those not willing to take the risk (for that is what it is; it is hardly shameless leap-frogging) and get heavily into debt to achieve their dreams?
Yes indeed I do. In fact, sometimes I wave to them when we taxy out to depart from 06L in Manchester.
The industry is very well placed for a rapid recovery in the next two years or so. May the optimists and visionaries have their day, I know that I have.
From the date that I signed the first cheque to the training organisation, to sitting in a jet, it took about the same length of time, six years.
Now, despite my username (Oh, and the location is a bit of a sidewinder too!) I am sitting on the port side of an A330 for a major flag carrier and enjoying the view.
Do I ever think of those not willing to take the risk (for that is what it is; it is hardly shameless leap-frogging) and get heavily into debt to achieve their dreams?
Yes indeed I do. In fact, sometimes I wave to them when we taxy out to depart from 06L in Manchester.
The industry is very well placed for a rapid recovery in the next two years or so. May the optimists and visionaries have their day, I know that I have.
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FS2002
Just to go back to the original thread, what is your feeling about working for free.
The type rating is another issue and certainly a very passionate one too.
As for thos who think along not following:
from Atropos
or From [b]Aftcofg[b]
Believe you me, it isn't necessarily the case.
I am not old, not wise, sponsored or with a rich daddy. As for ground jobs and stuffs, i have done it too and I know how lucky i am to have landed a first job which gave me a first break.
But then again instead of moaning about the lack of opportunities for low timers, I got off my bum and went to fetch one far, far away. I would have gone even further if i had too because I really believed I too could fly for a living.
The problem in our industry ins't the lack of jobs (well it is a bit) but a deeper one. In our modern days, everything must happen quickly with the minimum amount of hassle. If it doesn't we either give up, throw our toys out the cot or blame it on "this is the real world".
Sorry but I don't see it that way. The world (or our industry for that matter) is what we make of it. A bit like the Unions. They are only as good as their members.
I am glad, I had never had to work for free but then again whether it was in my gliding days or nowadays, I have always done my best and better. People have acknowledged it and rewarded me with their respect and recognition as a true pro.
I am also glad i don't share some of the above contributors point of view because thanks to that, I have made some really good contacts in the industry which in their own time, will come useful.
Not just for me but for all those I know because I now have a certain knowledge, network (albeit small compared to others) but I am also deemed reliable.
All this flying for free nonsense I never had to do it because noone has ever treated me with that much disrespect.
I maybe be sounding like a dinausor (not a T Rex for nothing
) but so far I haven't been proved wrong.
Never ever it has been easy to get a decent job as a pilot. This is not new so get on with it and stop blaming the entire world for it.
Do something about it !!
Listening to some of the comments on this, now diverted thread, I could feel isolated and not living in the so called "real world" but fortunately I have met people who think alike. The kind of people who do the Hire and fire, so as long as they exist, no way I m going to change (famous last words when you tell your mates you are going to get married
)
Since it is down to the individual rather than a law project decided here and now on pprune, I will keep rather quiet. For those who agree and those wo disagree, good luck and see you at the bash. There you wil be able to
-get me a beer
-pour your beer on my head
but as long as it is a Guinnness I don't care
Just to go back to the original thread, what is your feeling about working for free.
The type rating is another issue and certainly a very passionate one too.
As for thos who think along not following:
from Atropos
To anyone lecturing us about not looking after ourselves, you were either sponsored or had a rich daddy to look after you
The older wiser guys out there that can look back on there career and the industry and its demise, I really to understand your point of view but what choice to low hours guys have
I am not old, not wise, sponsored or with a rich daddy. As for ground jobs and stuffs, i have done it too and I know how lucky i am to have landed a first job which gave me a first break.
But then again instead of moaning about the lack of opportunities for low timers, I got off my bum and went to fetch one far, far away. I would have gone even further if i had too because I really believed I too could fly for a living.
The problem in our industry ins't the lack of jobs (well it is a bit) but a deeper one. In our modern days, everything must happen quickly with the minimum amount of hassle. If it doesn't we either give up, throw our toys out the cot or blame it on "this is the real world".
Sorry but I don't see it that way. The world (or our industry for that matter) is what we make of it. A bit like the Unions. They are only as good as their members.
I am glad, I had never had to work for free but then again whether it was in my gliding days or nowadays, I have always done my best and better. People have acknowledged it and rewarded me with their respect and recognition as a true pro.
I am also glad i don't share some of the above contributors point of view because thanks to that, I have made some really good contacts in the industry which in their own time, will come useful.
Not just for me but for all those I know because I now have a certain knowledge, network (albeit small compared to others) but I am also deemed reliable.
All this flying for free nonsense I never had to do it because noone has ever treated me with that much disrespect.
I maybe be sounding like a dinausor (not a T Rex for nothing
) but so far I haven't been proved wrong.Never ever it has been easy to get a decent job as a pilot. This is not new so get on with it and stop blaming the entire world for it.
Do something about it !!
Listening to some of the comments on this, now diverted thread, I could feel isolated and not living in the so called "real world" but fortunately I have met people who think alike. The kind of people who do the Hire and fire, so as long as they exist, no way I m going to change (famous last words when you tell your mates you are going to get married
)Since it is down to the individual rather than a law project decided here and now on pprune, I will keep rather quiet. For those who agree and those wo disagree, good luck and see you at the bash. There you wil be able to
-get me a beer
-pour your beer on my head
but as long as it is a Guinnness I don't care
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A300 - Very good post! It just blows my mind that so few of us out there have come to the same logical conclusion....
It is a fight for the future of our profession and we are fighting ourselves, ironically.
It is a fight for the future of our profession and we are fighting ourselves, ironically.
Our industry is full of ironic situations. Here are some related factors.
For example, let's say that your company (as with a US airline yesterday) decides to initiate a discount for up to 40% on leisure fares, as if this decision were forced upon them. They also just announced, on almost the same day, that they have about 1400 excess flight attendants.
They will then plead to the media and the employees (knowing that Wall Street is always listening), by early winter, about the profit-draining "heavy industry discounting", and use this as rational to lay off even more employees, whether pilots or others.
This massive surplus of trained, current pilots on the street automatically give your employer many more "hostages on the street", and more leverage, when they decide to suggest changes to contracts. Check on former American CEO Bob Crandall's strategy in the early 80's, in order to expedite the recall of furloughed pilots and expand the airline. It looks as if Mr. Carty was well-groomed as Crandall's apprentice.
Crandall and his senior pilot toadies, who are all now retired-their final average earnings were based partly upon their "A scale" salaries-introduced the very first pilot "B scale" (substandard pay for up to 20 years) to the industry. Talk about selling the profession down the river.
At US airline (Delta connection) Comair, the pay for training concept was introduced by Flight Safety International, and this allowed a massive expansion in regional jet flying, aided to a large extent by language in mainline Delta's pilot contract, among the weakest scope language ever seen in a US major airline contract (according to "Aviation Week & ST" years ago, about 20% of Delta's pilots were not ALPA members...) . It was a major precedent in the US industry-mgmt thought "Hey, these young kids are perfect suckers, they pay the equivalent of what a 737 or DC-9 type rating costs, and for a tentative FO turboprop job! What a deal for us...!" This reportedly reduced the need for narrowbody jet pilots at Delta. Along with the fact that regional jet FOs work at about US minimum wage and US labor judges allow such discriminatory low wages (which are not based on ALPA formula precedents, which apply in mainline contracts during "mgmt. pattern bargaining").
The explosive growth of regional jets here in the US reduced the need for pilots at the mainline carriers, even without the current slump, and will continue to reduce the need in the future. Statistically, as regionals take over many more routes of the mainline carriers, the major partners will have less need for replacement pilots, whether they come from the regionals, corporate, military backgrounds, or a combination. Much of this is due to Comair's/Delta's precedent. Very disappointing long-term results for "pay for training", after "jumpstarting a career" to the tune of US $10-12,000+. Some even bought a very expensive DC-9 type rating, in order to work at Valuejet for about $2,000/month, with no sick leave, vacation or retirement pay! An FO here, formerly a fighter pilot, then Valuejet Captain, only refers to them as "Ghetto-jet", at least when flying with me (poor guy...).
That Flight Safety Int'l regional simulator training was about the same price as a US jet type-rating, but these pilots who trained to be FOs, were never allowed to have the type rating! This money might have bought a 737 type for a job with Southwest. What a juicy deal between Flight Safety and Comair, which both made tons of money from the "buy a job" concept in the early 90's.
For example, let's say that your company (as with a US airline yesterday) decides to initiate a discount for up to 40% on leisure fares, as if this decision were forced upon them. They also just announced, on almost the same day, that they have about 1400 excess flight attendants.
They will then plead to the media and the employees (knowing that Wall Street is always listening), by early winter, about the profit-draining "heavy industry discounting", and use this as rational to lay off even more employees, whether pilots or others.
This massive surplus of trained, current pilots on the street automatically give your employer many more "hostages on the street", and more leverage, when they decide to suggest changes to contracts. Check on former American CEO Bob Crandall's strategy in the early 80's, in order to expedite the recall of furloughed pilots and expand the airline. It looks as if Mr. Carty was well-groomed as Crandall's apprentice.
Crandall and his senior pilot toadies, who are all now retired-their final average earnings were based partly upon their "A scale" salaries-introduced the very first pilot "B scale" (substandard pay for up to 20 years) to the industry. Talk about selling the profession down the river.
At US airline (Delta connection) Comair, the pay for training concept was introduced by Flight Safety International, and this allowed a massive expansion in regional jet flying, aided to a large extent by language in mainline Delta's pilot contract, among the weakest scope language ever seen in a US major airline contract (according to "Aviation Week & ST" years ago, about 20% of Delta's pilots were not ALPA members...) . It was a major precedent in the US industry-mgmt thought "Hey, these young kids are perfect suckers, they pay the equivalent of what a 737 or DC-9 type rating costs, and for a tentative FO turboprop job! What a deal for us...!" This reportedly reduced the need for narrowbody jet pilots at Delta. Along with the fact that regional jet FOs work at about US minimum wage and US labor judges allow such discriminatory low wages (which are not based on ALPA formula precedents, which apply in mainline contracts during "mgmt. pattern bargaining").
The explosive growth of regional jets here in the US reduced the need for pilots at the mainline carriers, even without the current slump, and will continue to reduce the need in the future. Statistically, as regionals take over many more routes of the mainline carriers, the major partners will have less need for replacement pilots, whether they come from the regionals, corporate, military backgrounds, or a combination. Much of this is due to Comair's/Delta's precedent. Very disappointing long-term results for "pay for training", after "jumpstarting a career" to the tune of US $10-12,000+. Some even bought a very expensive DC-9 type rating, in order to work at Valuejet for about $2,000/month, with no sick leave, vacation or retirement pay! An FO here, formerly a fighter pilot, then Valuejet Captain, only refers to them as "Ghetto-jet", at least when flying with me (poor guy...).
That Flight Safety Int'l regional simulator training was about the same price as a US jet type-rating, but these pilots who trained to be FOs, were never allowed to have the type rating! This money might have bought a 737 type for a job with Southwest. What a juicy deal between Flight Safety and Comair, which both made tons of money from the "buy a job" concept in the early 90's.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 5th Oct 2002 at 04:54.