'Will work for free'
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Ha, AMEX you brought back some memories. I had to travel far far away as well to find a flying job that paid some of my bills. I understand the desparation of low-timers, but it is not a solution. This will damage your future pay and ours.
The airline industry has never made sense to me! Let's take a look at the regional pilot issue...
New-hire regional pilots can expect an annual salary of 12K+, after e.g. Comair and dozen of other mostly regional airlines required them to pay up to $14,000 for their own training.
Regional pilots use flightdecks and have workloads that are similar to "airline pilots", although regional pilots typically perform more instrument approaches and landings at more remote airports.
So, if regional pilots are paid so low, the tickets must be really cheap, too? Errrr, no! Comair tickets did not cost half of what Delta tickets did. Then it was said that the regionals were not generating as much $ as the majors because of fewer seats.
Well surprisingly, some of the largest regionals in the US archieved a profit margin of 20% or more (pre 11 Sept) while the major airlines could only show a 3% margin. This was because of the same reason your computer parts are made in China or Taiwan:
Cheap Labour
Isn't it sad that some companies require you to pay a CV or interview processing fee? That clearly shows disrespect towards us pilots. We're just pushin' buttons up there, right? Heard that one more than a few times!
The airline industry has never made sense to me! Let's take a look at the regional pilot issue...
New-hire regional pilots can expect an annual salary of 12K+, after e.g. Comair and dozen of other mostly regional airlines required them to pay up to $14,000 for their own training.
Regional pilots use flightdecks and have workloads that are similar to "airline pilots", although regional pilots typically perform more instrument approaches and landings at more remote airports.
So, if regional pilots are paid so low, the tickets must be really cheap, too? Errrr, no! Comair tickets did not cost half of what Delta tickets did. Then it was said that the regionals were not generating as much $ as the majors because of fewer seats.
Well surprisingly, some of the largest regionals in the US archieved a profit margin of 20% or more (pre 11 Sept) while the major airlines could only show a 3% margin. This was because of the same reason your computer parts are made in China or Taiwan:
Cheap Labour
Isn't it sad that some companies require you to pay a CV or interview processing fee? That clearly shows disrespect towards us pilots. We're just pushin' buttons up there, right?
Heard that one more than a few times!
Last edited by Squawk7777; 5th Oct 2002 at 07:08.
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The movement of more and more flying to regional associated airlines is NOT going to stop anytime soon. And ALPA has only itself to blame. The major carriers, unable to resist the union pressure for higher salaries, will continue to divert flying to regionals in order to keep the payroll burden within reason. And in return, ALPA gives short-shrift to regional pilot contracts (where they represent them) prefering to pad the union pockets with dues from mainline carriers.
Very good news for new carriers...plenty of available pilots from which to choose, and lower salaries to boot...such a deal.
The situation in Europe, altho slightly different due to lower pilot numbers available, nevertheless will continue the trend to lower/stagnant salaries for quite some time to come.
Very good news for new carriers...plenty of available pilots from which to choose, and lower salaries to boot...such a deal.
The situation in Europe, altho slightly different due to lower pilot numbers available, nevertheless will continue the trend to lower/stagnant salaries for quite some time to come.
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Squawk 7777,
In some companies that I have been made aware of, some already do.
A major low cost carrier in the UK (sorry, Ireland) even charges applicants fifty pounds (US$75) just to apply. Are they short of applicants? No, of course not.
As has been said before, it is just supply and demand.
In some companies that I have been made aware of, some already do.
A major low cost carrier in the UK (sorry, Ireland) even charges applicants fifty pounds (US$75) just to apply. Are they short of applicants? No, of course not.
As has been said before, it is just supply and demand.
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it would be good to tell this to wannabes. many are still fetching post 11/9 50K (UK) for a JAA ATPL with 250h piston TT.
How are they going to repay their loan with 1800 USD pay as F/O ? (without considering cost of CFI, type rating, time building...)
How are they going to repay their loan with 1800 USD pay as F/O ? (without considering cost of CFI, type rating, time building...)
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Lifes a bitch then you die.
It is a bit like luck then, you have some or you don't. Then again (my view) you can make yours...
If humans had always kept there heads down no progress would have ever been made and yeah, working for free will be the norm.
That's not the case, thanks god because of that we can enjoy the benefits today so let's try to keep it going well past tomorrow.
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Some good posts.Indeed the Airline scene is rapidly changing,particularly with success of the low cost carriers.I think things will continue to lean towards the exploitation of pilots as the long time majors will find it tough to compete against the low cost outfits.
Here in Australia,Qantas has realised that they no longer have to treat applicants with any respect.You now have to find your own way to interviews(expensive.especially from Perth),of which there are two,if your lucky,and you are also required to pay AUS$150 for an aptitude test.
I think Qantas look at Virgin blues cost structure with envy,and will do their very best to get there cost structure down.I predict that Qantas Pilots will have to endure some discomfort in the future.
As for flying for free,that is a choice that one makes,everybody will make that choice for their own circumstances.People like I was, would have condemned such actions as a degradation of our profession,but,things change and so do ideals.
I am a 40 year old pilot who worked for a now defunct Australian major,10,000 hours commercial jet of which 5000 are in Command and an unblemished record.I have not been able to get a job anywhere,after sending dozens of applications I have not even had an interview!!.It has been a year since I have flown and now recency(or lack of) starts to come into the equation and I am getting to the stage of looking at anything to keep my career alive.Why I mention all this is not to receive sympathy but to highlight the fact that getting your foot in the door with a major is no guarantee of having made it for life,ask the boys at Pan Am,Americas premier Airline 25 years ago.The real unfortunate reality of the Auz scene is that there are still hundreds of pilots here,just like me!.
Here in Australia,Qantas has realised that they no longer have to treat applicants with any respect.You now have to find your own way to interviews(expensive.especially from Perth),of which there are two,if your lucky,and you are also required to pay AUS$150 for an aptitude test.
I think Qantas look at Virgin blues cost structure with envy,and will do their very best to get there cost structure down.I predict that Qantas Pilots will have to endure some discomfort in the future.
As for flying for free,that is a choice that one makes,everybody will make that choice for their own circumstances.People like I was, would have condemned such actions as a degradation of our profession,but,things change and so do ideals.
I am a 40 year old pilot who worked for a now defunct Australian major,10,000 hours commercial jet of which 5000 are in Command and an unblemished record.I have not been able to get a job anywhere,after sending dozens of applications I have not even had an interview!!.It has been a year since I have flown and now recency(or lack of) starts to come into the equation and I am getting to the stage of looking at anything to keep my career alive.Why I mention all this is not to receive sympathy but to highlight the fact that getting your foot in the door with a major is no guarantee of having made it for life,ask the boys at Pan Am,Americas premier Airline 25 years ago.The real unfortunate reality of the Auz scene is that there are still hundreds of pilots here,just like me!.
Thumbs up: Good luck to you, and to everyone else who earned the ratings with nothing on the horizon yet, or got kicked out the door, or to those who can't afford to restart their careers on minimum wage pay. My sermon up above was too long, but I attempted to describe some key aspects which have taken place in the US.
When the Comair pilots went on their bitter, long strike, in order to force the ALPA pay formula into their contract, which would have been a major precedent in the US regional industry, the entire US airline industry was pressuring Delta (and some key GOP politicians), which owns Comair, NOT to cave in. Just think of the financial and legislative "incentives" which could have been offered to Delta. They probably picked up certain routes from the DOT or might have been given certain favorable rulings by the DOT's admin. judges-find out how some former DOT Admin judges made very favorable rulings for Texas Air Corp/Continental Scablines in the mid-80's, just before these gentlemen left govt. service to work there. The govt always sweetens its rulings for industry/White House favorites, but these decisions are always made in an impartial, objective manner...
My thoughts also to the thousands of spouses and children who face hardships now, possibly interrupting college studies due to lack of money or losing a home, while certain airline leaders must decide which yacht to upgrade to this year. "Dear, maybe a full-length fox fur at Christmas, and a short mink jacket for little Jennifer to wear back to college after winter vacation in Gstaad"? "And Daddy, don't forget-my BMW with its leather seats is already three years old!"
When the Comair pilots went on their bitter, long strike, in order to force the ALPA pay formula into their contract, which would have been a major precedent in the US regional industry, the entire US airline industry was pressuring Delta (and some key GOP politicians), which owns Comair, NOT to cave in. Just think of the financial and legislative "incentives" which could have been offered to Delta. They probably picked up certain routes from the DOT or might have been given certain favorable rulings by the DOT's admin. judges-find out how some former DOT Admin judges made very favorable rulings for Texas Air Corp/Continental Scablines in the mid-80's, just before these gentlemen left govt. service to work there. The govt always sweetens its rulings for industry/White House favorites, but these decisions are always made in an impartial, objective manner...
My thoughts also to the thousands of spouses and children who face hardships now, possibly interrupting college studies due to lack of money or losing a home, while certain airline leaders must decide which yacht to upgrade to this year. "Dear, maybe a full-length fox fur at Christmas, and a short mink jacket for little Jennifer to wear back to college after winter vacation in Gstaad"? "And Daddy, don't forget-my BMW with its leather seats is already three years old!"
Last edited by Ignition Override; 6th Oct 2002 at 06:58.
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‘Thumbs Up’, you say you’re “…a 40 year old pilot who worked for a now defunct Australian major,10,000 hours commercial jet of which 5000 are in Command and an unblemished record”.
There’d be many who’d disagree with the last part of your statement (which I’ve highlighted). Because you simply couldn’t have that experience with that particular now defunct Australian major without wearing a lifelong tag no man would want attached to his name, (as I suspect you’re discovered these last twelve months). And before someone starts howling about me ‘hijacking the thread’, let me say that the way ‘Thumbs Up’ went about becoming a 10,000 hours commercial jet pilot with 5000 hours in Command is exactly what this thread is all about. It was the moral equivalent of ‘flying for free’ – taking a job as a blackleg in an industrial dispute.
The industry’s in the parlous state it’s in today – for pilots, at least – because people (I can’t call them ‘men’) like ‘Thumbs Up’ looked after themselves at the expense of the common good – the very thing people are complaining about here here.
There’d be many who’d disagree with the last part of your statement (which I’ve highlighted). Because you simply couldn’t have that experience with that particular now defunct Australian major without wearing a lifelong tag no man would want attached to his name, (as I suspect you’re discovered these last twelve months). And before someone starts howling about me ‘hijacking the thread’, let me say that the way ‘Thumbs Up’ went about becoming a 10,000 hours commercial jet pilot with 5000 hours in Command is exactly what this thread is all about. It was the moral equivalent of ‘flying for free’ – taking a job as a blackleg in an industrial dispute.
The industry’s in the parlous state it’s in today – for pilots, at least – because people (I can’t call them ‘men’) like ‘Thumbs Up’ looked after themselves at the expense of the common good – the very thing people are complaining about here here.
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Idiots work for free
Listening to some pilots in the Orval bar recently it would appear that, with some minor differences, their careers went along these lines.
Initially money borrowed to reach CPL and Instructor Licence.
Find PAID instruction job to build up hours/ experience. Have to pay for own medical and start to repay debt.
With more hours/ experience find BETTER paid job with charter company. Conversions paid for by the COMPANY. Pay for own medical and pay off a bit more of the debt.
With more hours, etc. find BETTER paid job with company flying larger aeroplanes (4 engines). Conversions and medical paid for by the COMPANY. Pay off a larger part of the debt.
Hiccup! Company goes broke!
Find job with well-established airline. Conversions and medical paid for by the COMPANY; join the company pension scheme. Work up through the system F/O, Capt., Instructor, etc.
Debt paid off now and more MONEY in the bank.
Are these exceptional cases? Apparently not, there were several of them.
This is the way it could be done, so why not now? The proliferation of 'bonding', paying for conversions, paying to go flying et al. can not be blamed on the companies. After all, they're out to take a mile.
The blame, if any, lies firmly at the doorstep of those who have condoned and let it happen.
You know who that is.
Initially money borrowed to reach CPL and Instructor Licence.
Find PAID instruction job to build up hours/ experience. Have to pay for own medical and start to repay debt.
With more hours/ experience find BETTER paid job with charter company. Conversions paid for by the COMPANY. Pay for own medical and pay off a bit more of the debt.
With more hours, etc. find BETTER paid job with company flying larger aeroplanes (4 engines). Conversions and medical paid for by the COMPANY. Pay off a larger part of the debt.
Hiccup! Company goes broke!
Find job with well-established airline. Conversions and medical paid for by the COMPANY; join the company pension scheme. Work up through the system F/O, Capt., Instructor, etc.
Debt paid off now and more MONEY in the bank.
Are these exceptional cases? Apparently not, there were several of them.
This is the way it could be done, so why not now? The proliferation of 'bonding', paying for conversions, paying to go flying et al. can not be blamed on the companies. After all, they're out to take a mile.
The blame, if any, lies firmly at the doorstep of those who have condoned and let it happen.
You know who that is.
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Working for free.
These guys/girls flying for free should be black listed, I personally
wouldnt have them onbord and no one should even consider
taking these so called self respected pilots on,there are plenty of
dedicated professionals around who have gone the hard way
to fullfill their dream of becoming an air line pilot.
I know there are an outfit in guam and several outfits in the
caribian who practise these scams.
Think tvise before joyning these outfits, you might get a question
at your interwiev about where you started your career.
wouldnt have them onbord and no one should even consider
taking these so called self respected pilots on,there are plenty of
dedicated professionals around who have gone the hard way
to fullfill their dream of becoming an air line pilot.
I know there are an outfit in guam and several outfits in the
caribian who practise these scams.
Think tvise before joyning these outfits, you might get a question
at your interwiev about where you started your career.
Thread Starter
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Thanks to all for the very thoughful posts. Lots of perspective added to my original posting.
A couple of comments:
To Borough Council who said:
"Well A300dude, If you've been flying 36 years, and this is as bad as you've ever seen it... then you must have had a pretty soft easy going career (and you must be retired from it now to see how the other half live). Have a chat with some "blue team" canuck sometime if you want to earn a real tear. Enjoy retirement man and put your feet up."
I don't feel the slightest bit sorry for any pilot lucky enough to be employed at Air Canada, regardless of how he got there (i.e. "blue team") and regardless of what they think of their seniority. Anyone who is flying there should consider themselves extremely lucky in the current circumstances.
As far as relaxing and putting my feet up after my soft career:
I now consider myself lucky to have a part-time job on a King Air. I am still suporting a wife (disabled) and three children (two school-age) on this earned money plus my retirement savings. Two years ago I was Captain on a wide-body and through no fault of my own (read all of the above posts), find myself in my present circumstances.
to "Thumbs Up" in Auz:
We have a similar situation on the go in Canada with the collapse of Canada 3000, our second-largest airline. According to what I've heard, there are still around 325 ex Canada 3000 pilots who have found no work at all (since last November). You can imagine what this does to wages and working conditions in a small country, when this number of qualified pilots are still out of work. And you can imagine what sort of pressure this puts on their families.
To finish on a much more positive note:
Over the last two years I have developed a group life insurance plan available to Canadian ATPL's and their families. So far, my partner and I are still subsidising the plan, but we have hopes that eventually the plan will be able to support itself and maybe even make a few bucks!
If you would like to check it out, go to www.ppip.ca
Thanks again for all the thoughful and insightful posts!
a300guy
A couple of comments:
To Borough Council who said:
"Well A300dude, If you've been flying 36 years, and this is as bad as you've ever seen it... then you must have had a pretty soft easy going career (and you must be retired from it now to see how the other half live). Have a chat with some "blue team" canuck sometime if you want to earn a real tear. Enjoy retirement man and put your feet up."
I don't feel the slightest bit sorry for any pilot lucky enough to be employed at Air Canada, regardless of how he got there (i.e. "blue team") and regardless of what they think of their seniority. Anyone who is flying there should consider themselves extremely lucky in the current circumstances.
As far as relaxing and putting my feet up after my soft career:
I now consider myself lucky to have a part-time job on a King Air. I am still suporting a wife (disabled) and three children (two school-age) on this earned money plus my retirement savings. Two years ago I was Captain on a wide-body and through no fault of my own (read all of the above posts), find myself in my present circumstances.
to "Thumbs Up" in Auz:
We have a similar situation on the go in Canada with the collapse of Canada 3000, our second-largest airline. According to what I've heard, there are still around 325 ex Canada 3000 pilots who have found no work at all (since last November). You can imagine what this does to wages and working conditions in a small country, when this number of qualified pilots are still out of work. And you can imagine what sort of pressure this puts on their families.
To finish on a much more positive note:
Over the last two years I have developed a group life insurance plan available to Canadian ATPL's and their families. So far, my partner and I are still subsidising the plan, but we have hopes that eventually the plan will be able to support itself and maybe even make a few bucks!
If you would like to check it out, go to www.ppip.ca
Thanks again for all the thoughful and insightful posts!
a300guy
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Those companies should be blacklisted! Aren't there labour laws prohibiting free labour in most countries? If you fly as part of the required crew, then you should/must get paid.
Aviation is a truely rocky path to reach the top. Few years ago I struggled with the CAA requirements which were about the change to JAR (no, I didn't panic!
) and most UK schools I came across were just trying to rip me off. But, there's no better feeling than to be on the way to work in the early morning...
Aviation is a truely rocky path to reach the top. Few years ago I struggled with the CAA requirements which were about the change to JAR (no, I didn't panic!
) and most UK schools I came across were just trying to rip me off. But, there's no better feeling than to be on the way to work in the early morning...
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Great post, Ignition Override.
I wholeheartedly agree with your points.
The reason overseas contract jobs pay so low now, is because 7 years ago, when they paid well ($125-75k/yr) qualified pilots were at a premium. Then, they discovered regional/general aviation pilots in the US and elsewhere with no jet experience who would fly for much less ($65-40k/yr) just to get big-jet time in their logbooks.
It has hurt the industry, and decimated the proper pay scales for those pilots who are truly qualified and have the experience. It has hurt the industry, and made it worse for those young, inexperienced pilots who want to break into it.
Nobody can live on $3250/month commuting from the US to TPE (no names).
I wholeheartedly agree with your points.
The reason overseas contract jobs pay so low now, is because 7 years ago, when they paid well ($125-75k/yr) qualified pilots were at a premium. Then, they discovered regional/general aviation pilots in the US and elsewhere with no jet experience who would fly for much less ($65-40k/yr) just to get big-jet time in their logbooks.
It has hurt the industry, and decimated the proper pay scales for those pilots who are truly qualified and have the experience. It has hurt the industry, and made it worse for those young, inexperienced pilots who want to break into it.
Nobody can live on $3250/month commuting from the US to TPE (no names).
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I would imagine that everyone is (or was) in the same boat. Do any low (or no) paid job to get experience. Eventually one will work up to a job with the majors. Then they will enjoy the fruits of their labour.
So what happens when these highly paid jobs no longer exist, will there be less supply???
Yours curious, Harry.
So what happens when these highly paid jobs no longer exist, will there be less supply???
Yours curious, Harry.