'Will work for free'
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There are 2 separate issues here. The 'working for free' bit is fairly straight forward - everyone does what it takes to get on the ladder and is genuinely happy to do so at the time. No reasonable person can begrudge that to his fellow pilot. When I started, I willingly grabbed the first job that appeared and am not the slightest apologetic for it. There will, however, always be those who fortune has shone upon and their circumstances have enabled them to get ahead in life without having to work for rock-bottom wages in dreadful companies. They always somehow think they are better than the rest of mankind. AMEX is one such person, and feels he is somehow such a fine fellow that people have always been rushing to pay him hansomely for his services. If only we were all so talented and attractive as he is - life would be so simple!
The second issue is that the real problem lies in many so-called professionals simply not being willing to take a stand on behalf of their fellow pilots. We have a situation at Air2000 in the UK for example at the moment where the management have kicked out a number pilots and simply cut the salaries of others at the bottom of the seniority list. How BALPA ever permitted this I do not know. The bottom line is that 'for evil to succeed it is only necessary for good men to do nothing'. If we gladly accept these situations then we will be trampled on. That is where I would be choosing to fight rather than attacking the new entrants into the industry.
The second issue is that the real problem lies in many so-called professionals simply not being willing to take a stand on behalf of their fellow pilots. We have a situation at Air2000 in the UK for example at the moment where the management have kicked out a number pilots and simply cut the salaries of others at the bottom of the seniority list. How BALPA ever permitted this I do not know. The bottom line is that 'for evil to succeed it is only necessary for good men to do nothing'. If we gladly accept these situations then we will be trampled on. That is where I would be choosing to fight rather than attacking the new entrants into the industry.
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The bottom line is that 'for evil to succeed it is only necessary for good men to do nothing'. If we gladly accept these situations then we will be trampled on.
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Can anyone tell me if this is for real or hopefully a wind-up, taken from the Middle East forum.
Attention: Airline managers, Chief Pilots and HR Departments
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=69167
Mutt.
Attention: Airline managers, Chief Pilots and HR Departments
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=69167
Mutt.
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It strikes me that some of you are being very harsh on the pilots (such as the one asking for a job in the 'Attention: Airline managers, Chief Pilots and HR Departments' posting) who are trying to get a job any way they can in todays market.
If the individual is prepared to pay for his own training and work for a low rate to get experience and hopefully a full time job - then good luck to him, I personally wouldn't do it but I would not criticise anyone who does.
A friend of mine decided that he wanted to change career and be a pilot, so he spent thousands on getting trained, he paid for his own 757 type rating - now he is in the R/H seat of a Big Airways 747-400 and on easy street for life. I say good luck to him as I would not have been prepared to get into the tens of thousands of pounds of debt that he did - but it is what he wanted to do, so he stopped taling about it and got on and did it.
As for the worries that people who are prepared to pay for their own type-ratings and work for nothing will drag down the whole industry - it don't beleive that there are that many people who are willing/able to do this.
If the individual is prepared to pay for his own training and work for a low rate to get experience and hopefully a full time job - then good luck to him, I personally wouldn't do it but I would not criticise anyone who does.
A friend of mine decided that he wanted to change career and be a pilot, so he spent thousands on getting trained, he paid for his own 757 type rating - now he is in the R/H seat of a Big Airways 747-400 and on easy street for life. I say good luck to him as I would not have been prepared to get into the tens of thousands of pounds of debt that he did - but it is what he wanted to do, so he stopped taling about it and got on and did it.
As for the worries that people who are prepared to pay for their own type-ratings and work for nothing will drag down the whole industry - it don't beleive that there are that many people who are willing/able to do this.
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That's the thing. Most people can't afford to work for free (or minimum wage) and those that can usually can't for long. It is one thing to be paid poorly for a little while but there comes a point when one must start earning to live. Any company that pays poorly probably finds they have a high turnover rate as most people view these as stopgaps. If the majors stop paying decent wages then yes, I believe there will be a major crewing crisis. Problem is it will take years to develop but if people see that they could make more money waiting tables than as a pilot then they are unlikely to be willing to stump up £50,000 for the priviledge of being unemployed indefinitely looking for that first job and then a lifetime of poor wages and serious job uncertainty.
The industry is famously cyclical. Right now there is downward pressure on wages. This will not last. Question is, how long will it last for?
Lazlo
The industry is famously cyclical. Right now there is downward pressure on wages. This will not last. Question is, how long will it last for?
Lazlo
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AMEX is one such person, and feels he is somehow such a fine fellow that people have always been rushing to pay him hansomely for his services
I don't recall saying people were rushing to employ me. As a matter of fact I lost my job post September 11 and was unemployed for two month until I secured another job but unlike you said, itdidn't rush my way (a misconception you seem to have).
I got a tip from a fellow ppruner and once the contact established with my future employer, I had 48 hours to move out, sell my bike and car and catch a flight (paid) from London (that is if I wanted the job, you can imagine I wasn't the only one going for it).
I don't pretend I am that valuable I only fly great machines... No, rather I aim at what I can realistically do in today's market ,i.e Flying light turbo prop, single pilot pistons and whatever else but nothing for free (call me a lucky B*****d if you like) and as long it is safe (done the dodgy stuffs, left before it ended in tears-mine-and have no intention to get involved with that type of outfit ever again).
Also you seem to think that I consider myself as some sort of prima dona but as someone who has had his fair share of time dreaming about flying whilst all sorts of jobs (before and after I qualifiied), I can assure you that if I had been better than most, I really would have done a bit better.
No real regret here as I have learnt a lot about many sides of aviation and its industry I wouldn't have had otherwise the chance to discover. During this period I came across a great number of people whom I can call many of them, friends.
As for my flying, I am also a very humble person and have no problem telling you about my mistakes or bad landings because I like to think we can all learn from it (me first).
So you see, because I don't believe in working for free doesn't make me that different from the professional I have no doubt you must be.
We are all free to run our career the way we chose. In fact there isn't a single way to be successful in achieving your lifetime ambition but instead there is as many ways as there are existing pilots.
In many's eyes, pilots are a commodity which, very often, makes us as a group, subject to attacks on our Terms and Conditions. I, as an individual do my bit, not to save your bum but in the long term, to preserve mine hence my rather unflexible stance (at least in your eyes but then again we disagree about the matter so....).
What I fail to understand,is why you feel so stronly about me refusing to work for free. I mean it isn't like if I was a threat to your job or anything ?
Anyway, i feel I have made my opinion fairly clear so that's it for me. As I said, if you go to one of the bashes, we can always have a friendly chat about it, as whatever you and I think, ain't going to change the way things are going.
Cheers Mr Norman Stanley Fletcher
From apple
Amex... are you on drugs or just capable of verbal Diarrhoea?
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Not related to apple's remarkable, concise and very informative post
The industry is famously cyclical. Right now there is downward pressure on wages. This will not last. Question is, how long will it last for?
Bye all
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My 2 penneth worth.
Amex, you sir strike me as an honest individual, who posseses a true sense of his own worth.
NOT a point that can be levelled at just anyone in this industry.
In all walks of life their lurks backstabbers and job stealers....it's up to each to decide if this occupation is better or worse than others.
If i one day share a cockpit with you sir, a pleasant experience i think that would be. Im on the first round at the stopover.
Good luck to you.
And for the record, in my opinion ,anyone who DOES demean themself by working for no pay, not only tarnishes themselves, but the entire cadre of professional aircrew everywhere.
Such money spent, such sweat expended, such hours of study and concentration, such sacrifices made.....and for what??
Enjoy tugging your forelock do we?
As an old Yorkshire friend used to say to me..."you dont have to be right smart to work for nowt"
Thats as applicable in a cockpit as it is down a pit or in a field. Never forget that.
Amex, you sir strike me as an honest individual, who posseses a true sense of his own worth.
NOT a point that can be levelled at just anyone in this industry.
In all walks of life their lurks backstabbers and job stealers....it's up to each to decide if this occupation is better or worse than others.
If i one day share a cockpit with you sir, a pleasant experience i think that would be. Im on the first round at the stopover.
Good luck to you.
And for the record, in my opinion ,anyone who DOES demean themself by working for no pay, not only tarnishes themselves, but the entire cadre of professional aircrew everywhere.
Such money spent, such sweat expended, such hours of study and concentration, such sacrifices made.....and for what??
Enjoy tugging your forelock do we?
As an old Yorkshire friend used to say to me..."you dont have to be right smart to work for nowt"
Thats as applicable in a cockpit as it is down a pit or in a field. Never forget that.
PPRuNe Person
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Don't work for free!
I just felt that it was time to remind all on here that in recent times, airline managers across the world are getting more bang for their buck from professional pilots.
For all those who are trying to 'make it' in this great profession:
Don't give your talents away.
Sell them to the highest bidder.
Make management pay for every delay, every minute longer you spend away from loved ones at the company's behest. They won't turn a profit without you.
We all love to fly, but don't do it for nuthin'.
Wannabes: take note.
For all those who are trying to 'make it' in this great profession:
Don't give your talents away.
Sell them to the highest bidder.
Make management pay for every delay, every minute longer you spend away from loved ones at the company's behest. They won't turn a profit without you.
We all love to fly, but don't do it for nuthin'.
Wannabes: take note.
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Any chance you could move this thread to downunder and godzone??
one practice in aus is employers wanting pilots to pay for the privildge of working or to buy the job of them. Just because some one can afford to pay for the job dosen't mean that they are the right person for the job.
one practice in aus is employers wanting pilots to pay for the privildge of working or to buy the job of them. Just because some one can afford to pay for the job dosen't mean that they are the right person for the job.
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'Will work for free'
Noticed a 'pilot seeking work' advert prominently placed in the latest FI; the first line of which says 'Willing to work for free'. I found it a bit depressing. I do empathise with the desperation felt when looking for the first job, particularly if like me you had to wait close to 3 years for even a sniff. However, paying money to advertise the fact that you are so desperate that you are willing to work for free strikes me as a bit mental. What kind of employers are likely to respond to this approach? If I was in the recruiting business I certainly wouldn't hire someone who valued his labour at 0. I don't know why, but I find it a bit creepy and I think it reflects poorly on the industry and the profession.
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It's the same thing as with being able to pay for your own typerating. If you are, good for you but dont put it in your CV. Doing this implies that the employer is a cheap piece of work and is in fact an insult. Employers shouldn't employ people because of guilt or the fact that they feel sorry for them, they should employ because they like you and if they don't want to pay for your services, take that at the contract negotiations!
/LnS
/LnS
One can be advertising for experienced B737-200 F/O's and all the 'idiot's' apply willing to SSTR despite the fact that experience on type is required, what the **** is one going to do with a B737-200 type rating
perhaps they think it is the same as a B737-300/900 type rating but they need to do just a little research before applying and subsequently being 'trash canned' as a total imbecile
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Yes it is very sad indeed, after all that hard work and huge financial outlay, it comes to working for free.
I lost my job a few years back due to someone working for free. This person worked freelance, had taken early retirement and wanted to " keep there hand in " makes life very difficult to compete. In fact even more difficult for the new guys entering the company when they are faced with this situation. All where expected to pay up front for type and opc lpc and medicals. TUBBS there where still guys willing to do this.
TUBBS there are many employers who are only to happy to beat a path to the door. Imagine it, a work force operating for FREE, they cant lose can they. Pay for your own type rating now line training, and then what is left ? work for free right ?
However, if this is what it has come to, then there really isnt much you can do.
MrM
But i wish you all well
I lost my job a few years back due to someone working for free. This person worked freelance, had taken early retirement and wanted to " keep there hand in " makes life very difficult to compete. In fact even more difficult for the new guys entering the company when they are faced with this situation. All where expected to pay up front for type and opc lpc and medicals. TUBBS there where still guys willing to do this.
TUBBS there are many employers who are only to happy to beat a path to the door. Imagine it, a work force operating for FREE, they cant lose can they. Pay for your own type rating now line training, and then what is left ? work for free right ?
However, if this is what it has come to, then there really isnt much you can do.
MrM
But i wish you all well
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What is the world coming to, eh? I should first point out that I'm a wannabe, and not a professional pilot like most of you on this forum. Being a professional, you have special highly sought-after skills and should be paid to work, not pay to work. I have never met an accountant who would pay to do someones books, just as I've never met a plumber who wants to pay someone to fix their toilets.
This is a problem mostly confined to Europe, where there are opportunities to fly for airlines with low hours. Do you see people in the US, Canada, Oz, Middle East, Asia (apart from Air Asia), South Africa, etc. paying for type ratings? No. The vast majority of pilots outside of Europe build their hours instructing, in aerial survey, and a whole host of other flying jobs. Almost nobody in Europe wants to do these jobs, and don't even consider them when looking for their first flying job. Few people have the patience to instruct etc. and wait for an opportunity to work for an airline. Instead people pay big money for TRs without any guarantee of a job. Why?! If every low-hour pilot gets a job with FR and then decides to leave when they have the hours, there won't be enough well-paying jobs for even half of them. Maybe airlines should deduct the cost of new aircraft from pilots wages too. There will be a huge shortage of quality instructors in Europe in the future I think. But that's beside the point. Europeans should take note of the rest of the world, perhaps even take a leaf from the Americans book! Nobody in the US can get an airline job without building 1500hrs by instructing or other means. It's seems to be a much fairer system, and there is a much more level playing field for pilots.
Ts & Cs (particularly those for new recruits) are going to be eroded beyond belief if this situation worsens. Can anyone blame airline managers for taking advantage of this situation? Experienced pilots should put more pressure on management to protect Ts & Cs for new pilots. I haven't seen the actual advert yet, but I don't know if I want to. To be completely honest, the sound of it disgusts me. Enough apathy, say NO to paying airlines to work for them.
It's always nice to have a good long rant about something! I'm relaxed again.......rant over
This is a problem mostly confined to Europe, where there are opportunities to fly for airlines with low hours. Do you see people in the US, Canada, Oz, Middle East, Asia (apart from Air Asia), South Africa, etc. paying for type ratings? No. The vast majority of pilots outside of Europe build their hours instructing, in aerial survey, and a whole host of other flying jobs. Almost nobody in Europe wants to do these jobs, and don't even consider them when looking for their first flying job. Few people have the patience to instruct etc. and wait for an opportunity to work for an airline. Instead people pay big money for TRs without any guarantee of a job. Why?! If every low-hour pilot gets a job with FR and then decides to leave when they have the hours, there won't be enough well-paying jobs for even half of them. Maybe airlines should deduct the cost of new aircraft from pilots wages too. There will be a huge shortage of quality instructors in Europe in the future I think. But that's beside the point. Europeans should take note of the rest of the world, perhaps even take a leaf from the Americans book! Nobody in the US can get an airline job without building 1500hrs by instructing or other means. It's seems to be a much fairer system, and there is a much more level playing field for pilots.
Ts & Cs (particularly those for new recruits) are going to be eroded beyond belief if this situation worsens. Can anyone blame airline managers for taking advantage of this situation? Experienced pilots should put more pressure on management to protect Ts & Cs for new pilots. I haven't seen the actual advert yet, but I don't know if I want to. To be completely honest, the sound of it disgusts me. Enough apathy, say NO to paying airlines to work for them.
It's always nice to have a good long rant about something! I'm relaxed again.......rant over
Last edited by EI-Shamrock; 22nd Aug 2006 at 21:08.
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Working for free, mad!
My favourite anecdote came from the owner of an FTO. He was approached by an instructor who offered to work for free. He threw him out saying; 'Never demean your profession by offering to work for nothing'. He probably used a couple of F words too If I know his character.
That sums it up neatly. Sadly one or two would have accepted the offer.
My favourite anecdote came from the owner of an FTO. He was approached by an instructor who offered to work for free. He threw him out saying; 'Never demean your profession by offering to work for nothing'. He probably used a couple of F words too If I know his character.
That sums it up neatly. Sadly one or two would have accepted the offer.
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When you have just been issued with a fresh CPL/MEIR (frozen ATPL), are up to your neck in debt and not in speaking terms with your bank manager, and desperate for that first airline job, one of the most important things you have left is your dignity. To advertise that you are willing to work for free is to do away with even that. Nobody should ever get on their knees to get a flying job - or any job for that matter. Full stop.
In my book, working for free can only be one of three things:
1/ Internship
2/ Charity work
3/ Slavery
Take your pick!
Cheers
In my book, working for free can only be one of three things:
1/ Internship
2/ Charity work
3/ Slavery
Take your pick!
Cheers
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Well said everyone. Very wise words indeed, but this isnt going to change anything, there will always be to many, rushing, wallet in hand to buy a type rating and those willing to work for free.
Perhaps " will work for free " speaks volumes of European pilots.
Maybe next we will see, perhaps " will work for food " ??
MrM
Perhaps " will work for free " speaks volumes of European pilots.
Maybe next we will see, perhaps " will work for food " ??
MrM