Trouble at Monarch??
X11 without the CC the new joiners would have started on even less and would never have been able to get onto the productivity pay scales. And I am sure they would still have had plenty of joiners! If Mon's pay & conditions are so bad Mon would get no pilots. index.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: At home
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well whatever the rights and wrongs of are, there are two area's as far as I'm concerned that need addressing, funnily enough one of them is not the pension.
1. Removing the artificial salary cap on those joiners who were recruited post its implementation.
2. A more balanced view to rostering, and not just "we've done it like this for XX years" and there is no reason to change.
Just as a final comment, new joiners should not be expected to pay homage to the CC, or any other body on the basis of what is offered out of the "generosity" of senior staff members. The facts are quite clear in this regard, senior pilots have looked after for themselves first (and quite rightly so in my opinion) however this wont detract efforts from others to restore to parity what is in essence a 2 and sometimes 3 tier pay scale.
1. Removing the artificial salary cap on those joiners who were recruited post its implementation.
2. A more balanced view to rostering, and not just "we've done it like this for XX years" and there is no reason to change.
Just as a final comment, new joiners should not be expected to pay homage to the CC, or any other body on the basis of what is offered out of the "generosity" of senior staff members. The facts are quite clear in this regard, senior pilots have looked after for themselves first (and quite rightly so in my opinion) however this wont detract efforts from others to restore to parity what is in essence a 2 and sometimes 3 tier pay scale.
Hey Guys wassup!
So i see some things never change. Unless you resist changes and bargain collectivelyyou will always be divided. BALPA and the CC are your ONLY effective weapon, use them, get elected if you are passionate about issues.
I left after 14 years, great bunch of guys in the Left and RHS. Shame its being ***** up by goofy and PB.
Ma salaama.
EGGW
So i see some things never change. Unless you resist changes and bargain collectivelyyou will always be divided. BALPA and the CC are your ONLY effective weapon, use them, get elected if you are passionate about issues.
I left after 14 years, great bunch of guys in the Left and RHS. Shame its being ***** up by goofy and PB.
Ma salaama.
EGGW
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: sky
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For christ sake guys you are the ones that signed the new contract when you joined you have only yourselves to blame there was much written about this at the time but you still SIGNED the contract on the reduced terms and conditions. It is impossible for the CC and BALPA to bargain when there are people who are prepared to join a company no matter what the terms and conditions.
Having said that Monarch still offer type ratings for no money and there are worse deals around.
I left Monarch some time ago but i still have many good friends there all who have been loyal and worked for monarch for many years. Do i think these guys deserve better terms and conditions to a bunch of whinging idiots prepared to take a job at any cost hell of course i do.
If you don't like it leave you could always join BA but oh don't they have a new contract now.
Having said that Monarch still offer type ratings for no money and there are worse deals around.
I left Monarch some time ago but i still have many good friends there all who have been loyal and worked for monarch for many years. Do i think these guys deserve better terms and conditions to a bunch of whinging idiots prepared to take a job at any cost hell of course i do.
If you don't like it leave you could always join BA but oh don't they have a new contract now.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by X11
Bealzebub
Whose cloak is thicker mine of indignation or yours of self righteousness?
Querty / Mach buffet
I am rapidly swimming towards the top of another pool where the existing workforce haven't sold out the incoming one for their own gain so I don't need to join your union / CC or anything else, but that doesn't change the facts.
DH121
Don't remember that conversation but treat as you wish to be treated!
Whose cloak is thicker mine of indignation or yours of self righteousness?
Querty / Mach buffet
I am rapidly swimming towards the top of another pool where the existing workforce haven't sold out the incoming one for their own gain so I don't need to join your union / CC or anything else, but that doesn't change the facts.
DH121
Don't remember that conversation but treat as you wish to be treated!
Anyway good luck floating in your new swimming pool, I am sure you will be sadly missed.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good afternoon all,
I don't wish to be the harbinger of doom
but I think we all need to wake up to the way that goofy,PB and the glorious bean counters are taking us... I fully accept that the issues of the FSPS are very important - but it seems we are taking our eyes off the ball with regard to the "low cost, no cost" schedule routes. Sadly the writing is on the wall for all of us - no matter what fleet or what base - you will all be flying a lot harder in order to ensure that aircraft are crewed with minimum number of crews with the maximum number of rotations - It's called "the low cost model" and it's the favourite night time read of most aviation accountants.
With none of the usual "down time" in the winter - and the usual chaotic scheduling, this has already had an effect on "certain" fleets leaving many knackered before the summer begins! You think I'm joking? then just explain the high number of recent CHIRP reports..
T&c's may be the same as when we signed on the dotted line - but it appears that goal posts are being cunningly moved - and unless we try to be a unified voice on this matter then only those with GENUINE profit related pay will be laughing!
I don't wish to be the harbinger of doom
but I think we all need to wake up to the way that goofy,PB and the glorious bean counters are taking us... I fully accept that the issues of the FSPS are very important - but it seems we are taking our eyes off the ball with regard to the "low cost, no cost" schedule routes. Sadly the writing is on the wall for all of us - no matter what fleet or what base - you will all be flying a lot harder in order to ensure that aircraft are crewed with minimum number of crews with the maximum number of rotations - It's called "the low cost model" and it's the favourite night time read of most aviation accountants.With none of the usual "down time" in the winter - and the usual chaotic scheduling, this has already had an effect on "certain" fleets leaving many knackered before the summer begins! You think I'm joking? then just explain the high number of recent CHIRP reports..
T&c's may be the same as when we signed on the dotted line - but it appears that goal posts are being cunningly moved - and unless we try to be a unified voice on this matter then only those with GENUINE profit related pay will be laughing!
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by X11
I am rapidly swimming towards the top of another pool where the existing workforce haven't sold out the incoming one for their own gain so I don't need to join your union / CC or anything else, but that doesn't change the facts.
Just as a point of order, I rather doubt if you're "swimming towards the top of another pond", most new boys tend to start at the bottom.
Last edited by MachBuffet; 27th Apr 2006 at 19:11.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's called "the low cost model" and it's the favourite night time read of most aviation accountants.
Compare and contrast with comments made about the managers of most other low cost airlines and the “esteem” that they are held in by their employees.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: uk
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My god Earnest! Somebody speaking common sense on this forum. Don your hair shirt immediately and stop being so enlightened. The management would not approve.
Disgruntled of Manchester.
Disgruntled of Manchester.
earnest,
Spot on. The problem with loco's, and MON inluded is that they lack managers as in "MAN MANAGERS". It's all well and good cutting the bottom line, all very visible accounting, but there is a hidden cost that is not being taken into account with regard to getting the staff onside, something that Southwest did. It'll hurt in the long run.
I suspect that there is another loco model out there called Ryanair, and that is what loco's aspire to these days.
Cheers
SPlat
Spot on. The problem with loco's, and MON inluded is that they lack managers as in "MAN MANAGERS". It's all well and good cutting the bottom line, all very visible accounting, but there is a hidden cost that is not being taken into account with regard to getting the staff onside, something that Southwest did. It'll hurt in the long run.
I suspect that there is another loco model out there called Ryanair, and that is what loco's aspire to these days.
Cheers
SPlat
stilljustanothernumber
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: the night sky
Posts: 624
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
earnest is right.
RS is a clever man who fails to appreciate that there are people flying wide-body aircraft who choose to waste fuel in revenge for the way they are treated by him. No airline needs that!
RS is a clever man who fails to appreciate that there are people flying wide-body aircraft who choose to waste fuel in revenge for the way they are treated by him. No airline needs that!
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Man managers:
Many airlines, especially in UK, have chief pilots/Ops Directors who have significant budgets to manage and significant numbers of highly qualified educated expensive people to manage. Most of them have risen up through the ranks of pilots, some in the companies they hold the helm of.
I've worked in various industries, and outside aviation they have focused on services to the public, be it insurance or catering. In all of them, when someone reached a certain level of management they were sent on extensive training courses to learn how to do it properly. They attended regular seminars to keep up with the company ethos, and workshops where ideas were exchanged and managemnt skills developed and allowed to mature; always looking to have the best people in place doing a good job. Like in the military it was a pleasure to work for a good boss. Productivity and success went hand in hand with a happy work force.
In most airlines I've worked for the boys at the top were often like politicians; they liked to be in charge and wormed they way up there. Not too many other candidates were interested, so rather than the cream floating to the top it was usually the plankton. This then became incestuous and promotions were given to those of equal mindiness or of the no-threat lower quality variety. Once in it is always damned nigh impossible to get rid of them. I did hear of one non-UK airline where the pilots demanded and won the Chief Pilot's removal. That had a far more satisfying effect than any 5% pay rise ever could.
Perhaps todays pilots are aiming too often at the wrong targets to right their perceived wrongs. From reading the gripres about many of the LoCo's a change at the top would bring more smiles than +10% gross.
Just when, and how often, have the latest family of Chief Pilots and D.O's been on extensive man management and budgetry courses? They can't fly an a/c without an LPC, so how can they hold the posts they do without full appropriate qualifications?
This is not aimed at Monarch but the industry as a whole.
Many airlines, especially in UK, have chief pilots/Ops Directors who have significant budgets to manage and significant numbers of highly qualified educated expensive people to manage. Most of them have risen up through the ranks of pilots, some in the companies they hold the helm of.
I've worked in various industries, and outside aviation they have focused on services to the public, be it insurance or catering. In all of them, when someone reached a certain level of management they were sent on extensive training courses to learn how to do it properly. They attended regular seminars to keep up with the company ethos, and workshops where ideas were exchanged and managemnt skills developed and allowed to mature; always looking to have the best people in place doing a good job. Like in the military it was a pleasure to work for a good boss. Productivity and success went hand in hand with a happy work force.
In most airlines I've worked for the boys at the top were often like politicians; they liked to be in charge and wormed they way up there. Not too many other candidates were interested, so rather than the cream floating to the top it was usually the plankton. This then became incestuous and promotions were given to those of equal mindiness or of the no-threat lower quality variety. Once in it is always damned nigh impossible to get rid of them. I did hear of one non-UK airline where the pilots demanded and won the Chief Pilot's removal. That had a far more satisfying effect than any 5% pay rise ever could.
Perhaps todays pilots are aiming too often at the wrong targets to right their perceived wrongs. From reading the gripres about many of the LoCo's a change at the top would bring more smiles than +10% gross.
Just when, and how often, have the latest family of Chief Pilots and D.O's been on extensive man management and budgetry courses? They can't fly an a/c without an LPC, so how can they hold the posts they do without full appropriate qualifications?
This is not aimed at Monarch but the industry as a whole.
Last edited by RAT 5; 29th Apr 2006 at 21:35.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RS is a clever man who fails to appreciate that there are people flying wide-body aircraft who choose to waste fuel in revenge for the way they are treated by him.
Surely, the best way to improve the chances of better conditions is to do one's best to contribute to the Company's overall profitability, whether by cheerfully working up to the 900 hours or by being cheerfully pleasant with one's colleagues, thus helping overall morale, which then rubs off on those who pay our wages - our passengers?
Or perhaps that just sounds old-fashioned?
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: At home
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Meadow...in any ordinary industry that would make perfect sense. Alas we work for an airline, and as has been said before with regards to bean-counters..they see the cost of EVERYTHING and the value of NOTHING.
There is the other scenario where no one wants the job and some poor unfortunate is cajoled into it
Man management is part instinct and part skill....most management pilots I have known possessed neither in my experience
In most airlines I've worked for the boys at the top were often like politicians; they liked to be in charge and wormed they way up there. Not too many other candidates were interested, so rather than the cream floating to the top it was usually the plankton. This then became incestuous and promotions were given to those of equal mindedness or of the no-threat lower quality variety. Once in it is always damned nigh impossible to get rid of them. I did hear of one non-UK airline where the pilots demanded and won the Chief Pilot's removal. That had a far more satisfying effect than any 5% pay rise ever could.
Man management is part instinct and part skill....most management pilots I have known possessed neither in my experience
stilljustanothernumber
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: the night sky
Posts: 624
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Meadowbank - I didn't endorse wasting fuel and I certainly don't do it myself. I was criticising the management culture that's made some people behave in that way. "Behaviour breeds behaviour"!
Last edited by unwiseowl; 30th Apr 2006 at 13:23.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyone who wastes fuel deliberately deserves to be sacked. It's like a spoilt child bursting the ball because he's not allowed play. What a load of B%**("$.
They wouldn't do it if they could be found out, so what's the point? RS or anyone else won't realise it's happening (if they did they'd be sacked) and the effect is just absorbed into the total annual fuel cost accross the fleet. What are they trying to achieve???? How can they possibly go home at night and feel like they've done a good job? People like that don't deserve to be flying. It really boils my blood.
It's back to the common attitude among so many people that if the company isn't nice to us we'll waste their money and put them put of business. And when we're all unemployed, we'll talk about how it was all their fault.
Unwiseowl,
Unless management have issued a memo instructing crews to waste fuel, then there is no excuse for irresponsible and unprofessional behaviour. You cannot blame an individuals gross malpractice on poor management.
They wouldn't do it if they could be found out, so what's the point? RS or anyone else won't realise it's happening (if they did they'd be sacked) and the effect is just absorbed into the total annual fuel cost accross the fleet. What are they trying to achieve???? How can they possibly go home at night and feel like they've done a good job? People like that don't deserve to be flying. It really boils my blood.
It's back to the common attitude among so many people that if the company isn't nice to us we'll waste their money and put them put of business. And when we're all unemployed, we'll talk about how it was all their fault.
Unwiseowl,
Unless management have issued a memo instructing crews to waste fuel, then there is no excuse for irresponsible and unprofessional behaviour. You cannot blame an individuals gross malpractice on poor management.
Last edited by captainpaddy; 30th Apr 2006 at 11:15.
Before the green brigade get on their high horse, in my experience, I've yet to meet anyone who deliberately wastes fuel to get back at RS or PB. Personally I don't believe it happens.
Where the goodwill comes into play is when the company asks for your help to for example work a day off. As the company seems to care less and less for it's employees, so there will be less and less help in return. Surely a no brainier, but clearly not in the accounting equation.
Cheers
Splat
Where the goodwill comes into play is when the company asks for your help to for example work a day off. As the company seems to care less and less for it's employees, so there will be less and less help in return. Surely a no brainier, but clearly not in the accounting equation.
Cheers
Splat
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Liege
Posts: 306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by captainpaddy
Anyone who wastes fuel deliberately deserves to be sacked. It's like a spoilt child bursting the ball because he's not allowed play. What a load of B%**("$.
They wouldn't do it if they could be found out, so what's the point? RS or anyone else won't realise it's happening (if they did they'd be sacked) and the effect is just absorbed into the total annual fuel cost accross the fleet. What are they trying to achieve???? How can they possibly go home at night and feel like they've done a good job? People like that don't deserve to be flying. It really boils my blood.
It's back to the common attitude among so many people that if the company isn't nice to us we'll waste their money and put them put of business. And when we're all unemployed, we'll talk about how it was all their fault.
Unwiseowl,
Unless management have issued a memo instructing crews to waste fuel, then there is no excuse for irresponsible and unprofessional behaviour. You cannot blame an individuals gross malpractice on poor management.
They wouldn't do it if they could be found out, so what's the point? RS or anyone else won't realise it's happening (if they did they'd be sacked) and the effect is just absorbed into the total annual fuel cost accross the fleet. What are they trying to achieve???? How can they possibly go home at night and feel like they've done a good job? People like that don't deserve to be flying. It really boils my blood.
It's back to the common attitude among so many people that if the company isn't nice to us we'll waste their money and put them put of business. And when we're all unemployed, we'll talk about how it was all their fault.
Unwiseowl,
Unless management have issued a memo instructing crews to waste fuel, then there is no excuse for irresponsible and unprofessional behaviour. You cannot blame an individuals gross malpractice on poor management.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Splat,
I would agree with you. I have never seen it done. Hopefully, it is only the minority who think it is done and find it acceptable.
A Captain from another company once said to me that the Company is entitled to treat us badly if they want to. There is nothing that says what they are doing is illegal. However, they must accept that they will be treated with the same lack of flexibility. If they don't bend a little for us, we won't work days off or leave days and we'll find it hard to accept roster changes at short notice. It then becomes an unwritten understanding between the two parties. That allows you to go home and be happy with your days work, but tells the company that not everyone is onside.
I found it refreshing that he wasn't angry at all about the situation, but had decided quietly that he would fulfill his job description to the best of his ability, but would otherwise only match the company's flexibility and respect for him. It made a nice change from banging tables and shouting.
I would agree with you. I have never seen it done. Hopefully, it is only the minority who think it is done and find it acceptable.
A Captain from another company once said to me that the Company is entitled to treat us badly if they want to. There is nothing that says what they are doing is illegal. However, they must accept that they will be treated with the same lack of flexibility. If they don't bend a little for us, we won't work days off or leave days and we'll find it hard to accept roster changes at short notice. It then becomes an unwritten understanding between the two parties. That allows you to go home and be happy with your days work, but tells the company that not everyone is onside.
I found it refreshing that he wasn't angry at all about the situation, but had decided quietly that he would fulfill his job description to the best of his ability, but would otherwise only match the company's flexibility and respect for him. It made a nice change from banging tables and shouting.
