Trouble at Monarch??
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Trouble at Monarch??
I hear that over 10 FO's have recently resigned from Monarch and at least double that number are in the pipeline. Not to mention the fact that almost every other FO on the 320/1 fleet at Manchester seems to be actively looking to move!
It appears that in the light of a whole multitude of gripes, guys are voting with their feet. As the company slips ever increasingly towards becoming "Ryan Air II", management seem happy to bury their heads and enjoy their skiing trips... meanwhile in Manchester 320 guys are maxing out on hours whilst other fleets sit at home and enjoy the productivity bonus. Thanks for vetoing the idea of sector pay chaps...
So come and work at Manchester! Work twice as hard, get effectively half the pay and don't mention the laughable pension scheme... And what ever happened to the scheduling agreement?? A mere 24 plot changes this month.. oh the joy of it all... now where is my Cv??
It appears that in the light of a whole multitude of gripes, guys are voting with their feet. As the company slips ever increasingly towards becoming "Ryan Air II", management seem happy to bury their heads and enjoy their skiing trips... meanwhile in Manchester 320 guys are maxing out on hours whilst other fleets sit at home and enjoy the productivity bonus. Thanks for vetoing the idea of sector pay chaps...
So come and work at Manchester! Work twice as hard, get effectively half the pay and don't mention the laughable pension scheme... And what ever happened to the scheduling agreement?? A mere 24 plot changes this month.. oh the joy of it all... now where is my Cv??
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Scarebus321,
If you dont like Mon then move on, go to Ryanair, Easy, J2 etc. In a couple of years the guys you joined with will be joining RS on his ski flights whilst you will be doing the same as you are now . Nobody forced you to join and the T&C's havent changed since.
Good luck with CV.
If you dont like Mon then move on, go to Ryanair, Easy, J2 etc. In a couple of years the guys you joined with will be joining RS on his ski flights whilst you will be doing the same as you are now . Nobody forced you to join and the T&C's havent changed since.
Good luck with CV.
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Problem is that pilots were recruited into London bases when the airline was expanding up north. Pilots of course refuse to be rebased so spend ridiculous amounts of time in Hallmark limos being ferried up and down motorways when if the crewing agreements allowed they should be rebased. Consequently the guys in situ are having to work their contracted max hours. Hardly arduous. Go work for Easy/Ryr and see what the "greener" grass is like.......
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Trouble at Monarch
It is not just the junior F/O's leaving for pastures new, I hasten to add, going to Virgin and BA. Several Senior F/Os on the old Monarch contracts have given up Command courses this year and prospective courses for next year to leave. These guys are not just on the A320/1 at Manchester.
I don't think any have gone to Easy or Ryanair but unfortunately as stated previously, Monarch are going down the low cost route and do not have competitive payscales, sector pay, however I believe it is being negotiated. Atleast by working hard you do get the financial compensation and possibly not get the 15-24 plot changes in a fortnight!!
Even on the A320 at BA, where some are destined, atleast rosters are stable, good staff travel and the possibility to transfer to other fleets after initial freeze.
At the end of the day, the grass isn't necessarily greener, just different and different lifestyles suit different people.
Monarch isn't the same place as it was and the younger New Entrants are treating it as a Training Organisation to get the jet experience to move on to better, larger operators where more opportunities are available to them.
I don't think any have gone to Easy or Ryanair but unfortunately as stated previously, Monarch are going down the low cost route and do not have competitive payscales, sector pay, however I believe it is being negotiated. Atleast by working hard you do get the financial compensation and possibly not get the 15-24 plot changes in a fortnight!!
Even on the A320 at BA, where some are destined, atleast rosters are stable, good staff travel and the possibility to transfer to other fleets after initial freeze.
At the end of the day, the grass isn't necessarily greener, just different and different lifestyles suit different people.
Monarch isn't the same place as it was and the younger New Entrants are treating it as a Training Organisation to get the jet experience to move on to better, larger operators where more opportunities are available to them.
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DoorPost, couldn't have put it better myself!
This is not just about new entrants - thank you Qwertyuiop (I think the sand is well and truly in your ears) but also about guys giving up command courses. Not only do we lose a wealth of experience but also people who are part of the unique and freindly mould that is Monarch. We have always prided ourselves on being a friendly place and a career airline - a place where in the past resignations were almost unheard of.
As DoorPost rightly says, many of the new entrants are using the company as a stepping stone to what they deem "better things". Management and the accountants seem all to happy to let this continue - rather than looking at the causes and addressing our very real concerns. As Qwertyiop points out, the "T&C's havent changed" since many joined. Indeed.
Everyone elses have though...
This is not just about new entrants - thank you Qwertyuiop (I think the sand is well and truly in your ears) but also about guys giving up command courses. Not only do we lose a wealth of experience but also people who are part of the unique and freindly mould that is Monarch. We have always prided ourselves on being a friendly place and a career airline - a place where in the past resignations were almost unheard of.
As DoorPost rightly says, many of the new entrants are using the company as a stepping stone to what they deem "better things". Management and the accountants seem all to happy to let this continue - rather than looking at the causes and addressing our very real concerns. As Qwertyiop points out, the "T&C's havent changed" since many joined. Indeed.
Everyone elses have though...
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Thought there was a monarch forum for these type of moans, unless you are actually trying to muddy the monarch name or make others think twice about joining this rather stable and well respected institution
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This is a public forum. The opinions of induviduals whether good or bad are given often, regardless of the company in question.
Monarch has a nice touchy feely way about it but facts are facts. New pay scale is not good, pension is worse and the roster stability can be awful. Say what you want, the terms and conditions are poor compared to other outfits doing the same job. Monarch is not Easyjet or Ryan Air.
Those off to BA or VS are looking 30 years down the road and in my opinion it's the only way to go.
Monarch has a nice touchy feely way about it but facts are facts. New pay scale is not good, pension is worse and the roster stability can be awful. Say what you want, the terms and conditions are poor compared to other outfits doing the same job. Monarch is not Easyjet or Ryan Air.
Those off to BA or VS are looking 30 years down the road and in my opinion it's the only way to go.
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canav8er is right, Monarch can not be compared to ryan air and sleezy. If the F/O's arent happy, leave! Monarch for some reason find it very easy to replace their crew.
Those ATC FO's work for basic only - until they receive there contract. They can always recruit them to scrape the bottom of a 321.
Monarch have a harsh whip and a memory like an Elephant. Complain to them and your Foubarred.
Those ATC FO's work for basic only - until they receive there contract. They can always recruit them to scrape the bottom of a 321.
Monarch have a harsh whip and a memory like an Elephant. Complain to them and your Foubarred.
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Or maybe the 300??? and hey look what I found in a previous post ...
" A few have left, most enjoy it and the majority live in fear of getting an A320/321 type conversion (bond free)."
Why ever could that be
???
" A few have left, most enjoy it and the majority live in fear of getting an A320/321 type conversion (bond free)."
Why ever could that be
???
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Trouble at Monarch
Unwiseowl
Regarding your comment, I must inform you that half a dozen guys, mostly senior on the A300/757/A330 are in the process of leaving and considerably more on the A320/1.
The options to join the larger outfits are out there, even for the A320 crews in Manchester. It is no secret that the Manchester base is the hardest working,however, the point was made that if you are not enjoying yourself up there, other options are available!!
Regarding your comment, I must inform you that half a dozen guys, mostly senior on the A300/757/A330 are in the process of leaving and considerably more on the A320/1.
The options to join the larger outfits are out there, even for the A320 crews in Manchester. It is no secret that the Manchester base is the hardest working,however, the point was made that if you are not enjoying yourself up there, other options are available!!
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The main problem is that longer serving MON pilots, especially the CC, are fat dumb and happy. They are on the nice fleets with PHI, Final salary pension and excellent wages, by any industry standard. Most line guys are truly astonished to discover that we are so far behind the industry standards, let alone their package.
The CC and pilot body allowed appalling conditions to be imposed on new joiners and what little fight was put up was ONLY to prevent the possibility of erosion of their pay, as we would be able to negotiate separate pay awards by virtue of the fact that we would have had an entirely separate pay scale.
The CC accepts that all life style enhancing negotiations have to be cost neutral. Why is that? Everyone other similar carrier has these protections so why do we just roll over? They also allow us to be compared to RYR et al. Why? They aren't flying A330's (when they get they aren't out of check), nor are they doing deep night flights and getting 20+ plot changes a month.
Why would the management improve terms and conditions for new joiners when they are well aware that the majority of the pilots and especially the CC, have everything they need and therefore no commitment to the real confrontation that is required. However all is not lost, after a bitter struggle they have persuaded the company to allow them to set up a committee to discuss pensions! Well we'll eat that when we get to 65 shall we???
The CC and pilot body allowed appalling conditions to be imposed on new joiners and what little fight was put up was ONLY to prevent the possibility of erosion of their pay, as we would be able to negotiate separate pay awards by virtue of the fact that we would have had an entirely separate pay scale.
The CC accepts that all life style enhancing negotiations have to be cost neutral. Why is that? Everyone other similar carrier has these protections so why do we just roll over? They also allow us to be compared to RYR et al. Why? They aren't flying A330's (when they get they aren't out of check), nor are they doing deep night flights and getting 20+ plot changes a month.
Why would the management improve terms and conditions for new joiners when they are well aware that the majority of the pilots and especially the CC, have everything they need and therefore no commitment to the real confrontation that is required. However all is not lost, after a bitter struggle they have persuaded the company to allow them to set up a committee to discuss pensions! Well we'll eat that when we get to 65 shall we???
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So X11, why exactly did you sign on ? presumably you read the contract you were being offered and accepted the terms and conditions you were signing up to ? Despite what you suggest these "appalling" terms and conditions were not imposed on you. They were offered to you as a new joiner after they were introduced. It was you that accepted them.
As regards the conditions for pre existing pilots you are probably correct, however over the next 10 to 15 years most of those pilots will have moved off the normal retirement point and then the planned transformation will be virtually complete. I agree that T&Cs are worse for the new joiners, but unfortunetaly this is the new reality of life in the world of low cost airlines, pay as you go training, and shovelling 250 hour "experienced" co-pilots into the right seat of every other jet.
All of this isn't to say that I don't have some sympathy with many of the points you make, but I keep coming back to the same question. Why did you sign on and accept this ?
As regards the conditions for pre existing pilots you are probably correct, however over the next 10 to 15 years most of those pilots will have moved off the normal retirement point and then the planned transformation will be virtually complete. I agree that T&Cs are worse for the new joiners, but unfortunetaly this is the new reality of life in the world of low cost airlines, pay as you go training, and shovelling 250 hour "experienced" co-pilots into the right seat of every other jet.
All of this isn't to say that I don't have some sympathy with many of the points you make, but I keep coming back to the same question. Why did you sign on and accept this ?
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X11,
I think you may have hit the nail firmly on the head when mentioning our glorious CC - what a waste of bloody space they are...All we ever hear from them is "final salary pension scheme" and anything else is totally irrelevant. Aren't pilots supposed to be able to multi-task?? Even negotiating the latest pension deal has been a complete farce - What's the difference between a dog and the CC?? Management have to tell a dog to roll on its back....
It seems they are only interested in protecting their very nice postions and don't give two hoots about the rest of the company and the mess they will leave it in when they retire.. And whoever agreed on this ludicrious "cost neutral" idea??? Everything has a cost, so lets get a bit more realistic and start looking after fellow crew - which is what they are supposed to do - and please dont give me the old "if you dont like it move on" clap trap - If some people pulled their fingers out and stood up to the changes we would ALL be much better off, people would not be leaving and maybe some of the goodwill would return...
I think you may have hit the nail firmly on the head when mentioning our glorious CC - what a waste of bloody space they are...All we ever hear from them is "final salary pension scheme" and anything else is totally irrelevant. Aren't pilots supposed to be able to multi-task?? Even negotiating the latest pension deal has been a complete farce - What's the difference between a dog and the CC?? Management have to tell a dog to roll on its back....
It seems they are only interested in protecting their very nice postions and don't give two hoots about the rest of the company and the mess they will leave it in when they retire.. And whoever agreed on this ludicrious "cost neutral" idea??? Everything has a cost, so lets get a bit more realistic and start looking after fellow crew - which is what they are supposed to do - and please dont give me the old "if you dont like it move on" clap trap - If some people pulled their fingers out and stood up to the changes we would ALL be much better off, people would not be leaving and maybe some of the goodwill would return...
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Beelzebub
Just because you were desperate for a job once doesn't mean that you have to tolerate gross imbalance / injustice in T&C's for ever. Those that joined through CTC had little choice which carrier they were allocated to. You appear to be a fairly typical earlier generation MON pilot in that you do not realise that OUR PACKAGE IS NOT EVEN IN LINE WITH THE LOCO's! And if you’re so resigned to the fact that the LOCO attitude is inevitable then you will have no objection to me voting to scrap scale B and close the FS pension to future accrual at the earliest possible opportunity. Didn't think so.
I notice that no one said to you guys that "if you don't like having to put more into the FS pension pot then leave....after all you signed the contract".
No the full effort of the CC was put into reaching a swift solution. Not a "we are bearing it in mind" solution, you will note.
It's the high seniority FO's and low seniority Capt's that need to start lobbying for a change of attitude, because it is them that will one day be faced with a CC and voting majority that know that they were hung out to dry by the apathy / ignorance of what will then be the minority. See what happens when the next FS crisis rears its ugly but inevitable head when we are sat on a pittance of a pension contribution, long after the people with the current union power are sat on their FS pensions.
Just because you were desperate for a job once doesn't mean that you have to tolerate gross imbalance / injustice in T&C's for ever. Those that joined through CTC had little choice which carrier they were allocated to. You appear to be a fairly typical earlier generation MON pilot in that you do not realise that OUR PACKAGE IS NOT EVEN IN LINE WITH THE LOCO's! And if you’re so resigned to the fact that the LOCO attitude is inevitable then you will have no objection to me voting to scrap scale B and close the FS pension to future accrual at the earliest possible opportunity. Didn't think so.
I notice that no one said to you guys that "if you don't like having to put more into the FS pension pot then leave....after all you signed the contract".
No the full effort of the CC was put into reaching a swift solution. Not a "we are bearing it in mind" solution, you will note.
It's the high seniority FO's and low seniority Capt's that need to start lobbying for a change of attitude, because it is them that will one day be faced with a CC and voting majority that know that they were hung out to dry by the apathy / ignorance of what will then be the minority. See what happens when the next FS crisis rears its ugly but inevitable head when we are sat on a pittance of a pension contribution, long after the people with the current union power are sat on their FS pensions.
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qwertyuiop
Oh you mean that one where you are obliged to present your real name and staff number to god knows who?
Are you really arrogant enough to believe that anyone who has a strong opinion that isn't in line with your own couldn't possibly be an employee of the great utopia that is Monarch Airlines!
Get real.
Oh you mean that one where you are obliged to present your real name and staff number to god knows who?
Are you really arrogant enough to believe that anyone who has a strong opinion that isn't in line with your own couldn't possibly be an employee of the great utopia that is Monarch Airlines!
Get real.