Trouble at Monarch??
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Gentlemen, we are all suffering from the "Curse of the ????" and his master.Unfortunately Wallace and Grommet are not performing as well as our expensive union dues demand so "we are all doomed "to quote another fictional character. Just because someone does not post on the Monarch private thread should be no reason to dismiss them!I believe some of the posters have some very valid points and as this has been done on a public forum it will deter all apart from the most desperate from joining when the exodus really gets going in the near future.The only point i would disagree with is that the old stagers such as myself will be outnumbered as with the current departure of so many junior pilots it will be only people who cannot afford to leave that are left in the ruins of a once great happy company.
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X11, you say that " Just because you were desperate for a job once doesn't mean that you have to tolerate gross imbalance / injustice in T&C's for ever. "
well yes and no. I make the point again that you signed up to these terms. No one forced you to, and presumably you were aware that you were accepting terms and conditions that were inferior to those on offer in earlier days. It is hard to imagine you could have been unaware since the union was making a major issue of it at the time. You may recall that a compromise was reached that in part resulted in what is now known as the unified salary scale. If you were so desperate why didn't you take a job with another carrier who offered terms and conditions more to your liking ? you say that "Those that joined through CTC had little choice which carrier they were allocated to.". With respect those that joined through that scheme had very little experience in the main and were lucky and priviliged to be offered jet placements with levels of experience that in the past would not in all likelyhood have resulted in such placements. Many CTC cadet pilots have gone on to do very well and you probably now fly with some of them in command positions. Nevertheless in the past most F/O's traditionally were recruited from the Air force and as experienced pilots from other carriers. Perhaps a point worth remembering ?
Another point you bring up is concerning Final salary pensions and low cost operators. Monarch was historically an I.T/ charter airline with competitive indeed good terms and conditions during much of the last two decades. More recently it has become something of a hybrid, whereby a good percentage of its operation is now as a Low cost scheduled carrier, and the rest is in the traditional IT business within a much tighter and reduced marketplace. It has always been a business ( not a utopia, not a social service, and not a training scheme for the disaffected ). It has been a hard nosed business that has had to profit to survive. To profit it has like many other businesses had to adapt to remain afloat. In recent times that has meant adapting to the competition imposed by the single "LOCO" operators. You know the ones I mean, that include making their pilots pay for their training, their uniforms, medicals, assesments, interviews and sometimes even to read their C.V's. It is in this segment of the market that the terms and conditions are now being pitched.
Do I like it ? No not really.
Do I care ? Oh yes. I think it has significant potential problems for the near term future of the whole industry.
You state in respect of final salary pensions, that, "you will have no objection to me voting to scrap scale B and close the FS pension to future accrual at the earliest possible opportunity. Didn't think so.
" I am not sure what vote you are referring to, but what ever it is, you can vote as you see fit. Unlike you, I do not presume to speak for you. In an earlier reply I thought I had already made the point that the transformation process would likely be complete in another 10 to 15 years, and a significant swing to the ideas you suggest would be likely well before then.
The reason nobody suggested leaving rather than having to make greater contributions to the FS scheme is twofold. On the one hand the logic would be sufficiently tortured to arouse the attention of Amnesty International. Secondly my contract has no clause within it that prevents the FS scheme being altered or indeed wound up at some future date. I have never been under the illusion that I could not seek out better conditions elsewhere at any point in my career with the company. However it has been a solid business and has been fair to me as I have to it. I think that is probably the case with most people here.
You have an absolute right to seek to improve your terms and conditions by whatever means you see fit. If that means people move to other carriers then so be it. If it means people fight from within likewise. I make the point yet again that this is a business within a marketplace. It must profit to survive and it is still subservient to the basic economic laws of supply and demand determining price. Your irritation and annoyance however justified, is not in itself going to usurp the realities of economics or business. Nor is that same attitude vented against the people who have invested a major portion of their working lives in this business, going to garner much support for you. However you are right in that eventually your day will come and you will be in the majority. I hope that when that day happens the market forces are on your side.
well yes and no. I make the point again that you signed up to these terms. No one forced you to, and presumably you were aware that you were accepting terms and conditions that were inferior to those on offer in earlier days. It is hard to imagine you could have been unaware since the union was making a major issue of it at the time. You may recall that a compromise was reached that in part resulted in what is now known as the unified salary scale. If you were so desperate why didn't you take a job with another carrier who offered terms and conditions more to your liking ? you say that "Those that joined through CTC had little choice which carrier they were allocated to.". With respect those that joined through that scheme had very little experience in the main and were lucky and priviliged to be offered jet placements with levels of experience that in the past would not in all likelyhood have resulted in such placements. Many CTC cadet pilots have gone on to do very well and you probably now fly with some of them in command positions. Nevertheless in the past most F/O's traditionally were recruited from the Air force and as experienced pilots from other carriers. Perhaps a point worth remembering ?
Another point you bring up is concerning Final salary pensions and low cost operators. Monarch was historically an I.T/ charter airline with competitive indeed good terms and conditions during much of the last two decades. More recently it has become something of a hybrid, whereby a good percentage of its operation is now as a Low cost scheduled carrier, and the rest is in the traditional IT business within a much tighter and reduced marketplace. It has always been a business ( not a utopia, not a social service, and not a training scheme for the disaffected ). It has been a hard nosed business that has had to profit to survive. To profit it has like many other businesses had to adapt to remain afloat. In recent times that has meant adapting to the competition imposed by the single "LOCO" operators. You know the ones I mean, that include making their pilots pay for their training, their uniforms, medicals, assesments, interviews and sometimes even to read their C.V's. It is in this segment of the market that the terms and conditions are now being pitched.
Do I like it ? No not really.
Do I care ? Oh yes. I think it has significant potential problems for the near term future of the whole industry.
You state in respect of final salary pensions, that, "you will have no objection to me voting to scrap scale B and close the FS pension to future accrual at the earliest possible opportunity. Didn't think so.
" I am not sure what vote you are referring to, but what ever it is, you can vote as you see fit. Unlike you, I do not presume to speak for you. In an earlier reply I thought I had already made the point that the transformation process would likely be complete in another 10 to 15 years, and a significant swing to the ideas you suggest would be likely well before then.
The reason nobody suggested leaving rather than having to make greater contributions to the FS scheme is twofold. On the one hand the logic would be sufficiently tortured to arouse the attention of Amnesty International. Secondly my contract has no clause within it that prevents the FS scheme being altered or indeed wound up at some future date. I have never been under the illusion that I could not seek out better conditions elsewhere at any point in my career with the company. However it has been a solid business and has been fair to me as I have to it. I think that is probably the case with most people here.
You have an absolute right to seek to improve your terms and conditions by whatever means you see fit. If that means people move to other carriers then so be it. If it means people fight from within likewise. I make the point yet again that this is a business within a marketplace. It must profit to survive and it is still subservient to the basic economic laws of supply and demand determining price. Your irritation and annoyance however justified, is not in itself going to usurp the realities of economics or business. Nor is that same attitude vented against the people who have invested a major portion of their working lives in this business, going to garner much support for you. However you are right in that eventually your day will come and you will be in the majority. I hope that when that day happens the market forces are on your side.
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What's all the fuss about ? if your not happy, leave. The management arn't going to be bothered untill they can't get pilots, the threat of people leaving ain't gonna make any difference whatsoever....
stilljustanothernumber
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if your not happy, leave.
"if your (sic) not happy, leave" = I'm alright, and I'm not interested in your plight.
Management must be chuffed about how they've managed to split us.
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What a sad attitude.
How do you think pilot employment terms are a shadow of that of 20 years ago? - Because successive pilot liason groups have each said do whatever you like to the new guys - just please don't touch our nice cosy little deal. New pilots have little option but to accept what is offered because this cowardice is going on in almost every airline.
So I shudder to think what the terms will be like in another 20 years time.
How do you think pilot employment terms are a shadow of that of 20 years ago? - Because successive pilot liason groups have each said do whatever you like to the new guys - just please don't touch our nice cosy little deal. New pilots have little option but to accept what is offered because this cowardice is going on in almost every airline.
So I shudder to think what the terms will be like in another 20 years time.
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Airlines are just building problems for themselves in the future. If they don't offer decent T&Cs, pilots won't consider them as career airlines and will move on. (But how many of these pilots can BA take on?)
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Bealzebub
Pontificate all you like about how privileged us low houred irks are to be allowed the opportunity to be patronised by you, but please also try to address some of the issues that are being discussed.
There is a huge disparity in conditions which you understandably favour but we do not and no amount of condescension will change that fact. The company CAN afford to give us all fair terms and will have to do so if we are properly represented.
Pontificate all you like about how privileged us low houred irks are to be allowed the opportunity to be patronised by you, but please also try to address some of the issues that are being discussed.
There is a huge disparity in conditions which you understandably favour but we do not and no amount of condescension will change that fact. The company CAN afford to give us all fair terms and will have to do so if we are properly represented.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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I recently travelled with Monarch and knew they were on a dodgy wicket when they sold me this seat for £40 extra to get the 'extra legroom'. Spot where your legs go.
Demanded refund from CEO and got told to p**s off.
If that is how they treat customers, how do you expect them to treat crew?
Demanded refund from CEO and got told to p**s off.
If that is how they treat customers, how do you expect them to treat crew?
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X11 "The main problem is that longer serving MON pilots, especially the CC, are fat dumb and happy."
X11 by extension, guess what we really need on the CC are a few lean, intelligent, unhappy types. Well, if the cap fits, perhaps you would be brave enough to submit a manifesto.
I guess you'll probably have to join BALPA first, so once you've put your money where your mouth is, give us a clue who to vote for, until then do us all a favour and wind your neck in boyo.
X11 by extension, guess what we really need on the CC are a few lean, intelligent, unhappy types. Well, if the cap fits, perhaps you would be brave enough to submit a manifesto.
I guess you'll probably have to join BALPA first, so once you've put your money where your mouth is, give us a clue who to vote for, until then do us all a favour and wind your neck in boyo.
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CEO - PB. The seat next to the slide bustle is only fit for a one legged vertically challenged individual or a small child. To offer that seat to a six foot adult for a 9 hour fllight is criminal. The only option for the person in that seat is to extend their legs into the space of the person next to them - space they paid extra for - only to have to share it! Monarch have lost the plot and I will not use them again.
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X11 must be aspiring to be the next willie walsh. 
Nothing more would we all like to see than better terms and conditions across the industry, but whilst people sell themselves short and sign up to cXXp contracts with others behind them willing to do so, management will continue to take the oportunity to lower ALL our benifits and destroy any lifestyle outside of the company. Not just happening in aviation !
All investment is for short term gain/greed, not long term customer and staff support.
Nothing more would we all like to see than better terms and conditions across the industry, but whilst people sell themselves short and sign up to cXXp contracts with others behind them willing to do so, management will continue to take the oportunity to lower ALL our benifits and destroy any lifestyle outside of the company. Not just happening in aviation !
All investment is for short term gain/greed, not long term customer and staff support.
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I always feel that there are so many people who most likely have not had any experience of T&C's elsewhere who suddenly become experts in the discussion. Few of us seem aware that if you ask anyone working any job in any industry, they will most likely tell you that they want more money and better conditions. That is human nature. It is no different in aviation.
It does not matter how much people are paid, they will want more if someone somewhere else is getting more than them. Fact is that, if MON, under the current T's & C's, offered greater pay and a better pension than anyone else, not one person would give out. The same would apply for any other company. It is greed pure and simple.
I have come from my previous job where there was no health care, a pension scheme where the company added just 10% OF OUR CONTRIBUTION, where you ate what you brought with you and where as an LTC I was earning £41,000 including all sector pay and expenses. Now, as an FO I earn £42,000 before extras, and while it's not the best pension on the planet, it's a far cry from what I had before. I take home £2,500 a month and that is plenty.
900 hours a year in a 320/321 on 2 sector days is a hell of a lot easier to take physically than the 750 hours a year on 6 sector days I was used to on a turboprop. Where before my days off were used to recover from the weeks work, now I can actually enjoy them.
I can't complain about MON because I am a hell of alot better off than I was in my old place. Sure there are better conditions in other companies, but I don't want to live in London or the middle east or wherever and at the end of the day I didn't apply to them.
By all means, we should try for better T's & C's, but at the end of the day, if you don't like it, get out. I think there is nothing more sad than a 10 year pilot who has spent 9 years giving out about the company he works for. I am in aviation because I enjoy flying and because I know that if I leave this industry I will be cutting my salary in half.
It does not matter how much people are paid, they will want more if someone somewhere else is getting more than them. Fact is that, if MON, under the current T's & C's, offered greater pay and a better pension than anyone else, not one person would give out. The same would apply for any other company. It is greed pure and simple.
I have come from my previous job where there was no health care, a pension scheme where the company added just 10% OF OUR CONTRIBUTION, where you ate what you brought with you and where as an LTC I was earning £41,000 including all sector pay and expenses. Now, as an FO I earn £42,000 before extras, and while it's not the best pension on the planet, it's a far cry from what I had before. I take home £2,500 a month and that is plenty.
900 hours a year in a 320/321 on 2 sector days is a hell of a lot easier to take physically than the 750 hours a year on 6 sector days I was used to on a turboprop. Where before my days off were used to recover from the weeks work, now I can actually enjoy them.
I can't complain about MON because I am a hell of alot better off than I was in my old place. Sure there are better conditions in other companies, but I don't want to live in London or the middle east or wherever and at the end of the day I didn't apply to them.
By all means, we should try for better T's & C's, but at the end of the day, if you don't like it, get out. I think there is nothing more sad than a 10 year pilot who has spent 9 years giving out about the company he works for. I am in aviation because I enjoy flying and because I know that if I leave this industry I will be cutting my salary in half.
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Bealzebub
Whose cloak is thicker mine of indignation or yours of self righteousness?
Querty / Mach buffet
I am rapidly swimming towards the top of another pool where the existing workforce haven't sold out the incoming one for their own gain so I don't need to join your union / CC or anything else, but that doesn't change the facts.
DH121
Don't remember that conversation but treat as you wish to be treated!
Whose cloak is thicker mine of indignation or yours of self righteousness?
Querty / Mach buffet
I am rapidly swimming towards the top of another pool where the existing workforce haven't sold out the incoming one for their own gain so I don't need to join your union / CC or anything else, but that doesn't change the facts.
DH121
Don't remember that conversation but treat as you wish to be treated!