Jet2 Sector Pay?
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What are everybody’s thought's on the rumours that PM has said he will sell the company if the unions get involved?
It’s definitely time for a private forum.
It’s definitely time for a private forum.
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Survey results - disappointing response
We need to move on and only 11 pilots have responded so I'm wrapping it up. Reasons could be:
Apathy
Fear
Disillusionment with Pprune after all the Jet2-bashing there's been
Mistrust of my identity - for obvious reasons it could be employment suicide if it got out so it has to remain confidential
It's statistically meaningless but for what it's worth:
3 are BALPA members, 2 are IPA/IPF and 1 is in the TGWU
5 would join BALPA if this was the majority decision
8 would join the TGWU if this was the majority decision
All would be willing to pay a bit towards a private Pprune forum
Responses are roughly in proportion to base size and evenly split between Captains and F/O's
My thanks to those who took the trouble to respond.
Apathy
Fear
Disillusionment with Pprune after all the Jet2-bashing there's been
Mistrust of my identity - for obvious reasons it could be employment suicide if it got out so it has to remain confidential
It's statistically meaningless but for what it's worth:
3 are BALPA members, 2 are IPA/IPF and 1 is in the TGWU
5 would join BALPA if this was the majority decision
8 would join the TGWU if this was the majority decision
All would be willing to pay a bit towards a private Pprune forum
Responses are roughly in proportion to base size and evenly split between Captains and F/O's
My thanks to those who took the trouble to respond.
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I think this needs looking at again when (if) we have a private forum.
Quite a few are understandably concerned about airing their laundry in public.
R
Quite a few are understandably concerned about airing their laundry in public.
R
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On another thread MANBLK asks for my thoughts on joint unionisation (T&GW for all flight crew and ground staff) maybe my views as ground based staff hold little sway in this particular thread but here goes, there would seem to be a general view amongst head office staff that its far too late for any kind of union input for most of us. I personally think that a union would not acheive much against the type of management operated by Jet2.
From what I have read in this thread, there is far too much division between the staff for any one union to be effective. For a union to be effective it must have the support of its members, and while an air of "them and us" exists between flight deck, cabin crew and ground staff no single union could hope to achieve meaningful results.
I do feel that unionisation is a good thing, but I would venture to sugest that each of the groups within the company should persue solidarity behind the union best suited to their different needs.
Sorry for any thread drift, and feel free to ignore my thoughts after all, I'm only ground staff.
ILS
From what I have read in this thread, there is far too much division between the staff for any one union to be effective. For a union to be effective it must have the support of its members, and while an air of "them and us" exists between flight deck, cabin crew and ground staff no single union could hope to achieve meaningful results.
I do feel that unionisation is a good thing, but I would venture to sugest that each of the groups within the company should persue solidarity behind the union best suited to their different needs.
Sorry for any thread drift, and feel free to ignore my thoughts after all, I'm only ground staff.
ILS
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Rudolf.... dare I ask where this rumour came from? Would PM give it all up that easily? Sounds like cutting off your nose to spite your face... Mind you I heard a rumour a while back (and that's all it was) that Jet2 was being built up to sell it.
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Off another thread:
-------------------------------
I've heard that Astraeus have just had a good pay deal through the IPA/IPF
I've heard that Astraeus have just had a good pay deal through the IPA/IPF and that the most pilots are happy with the pay deal. And they managed to get it sorted very quickly.
May be we should consider this when dealing with paydeals.
--------------------------------
At Jet2, are we justified in dismissing the IPA/IPF? They are pilot-orientated if nothing else - and cheap.
-------------------------------
I've heard that Astraeus have just had a good pay deal through the IPA/IPF I've heard that Astraeus have just had a good pay deal through the IPA/IPF and that the most pilots are happy with the pay deal. And they managed to get it sorted very quickly.
May be we should consider this when dealing with paydeals.
--------------------------------
At Jet2, are we justified in dismissing the IPA/IPF? They are pilot-orientated if nothing else - and cheap.
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Thread drift, but relevant.... Rumour has it that at least one Jet2 757 pilot who was doing his line training with Astaeus has resigned Jet2 to go to Astraeus. Must tel you something!
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Repeated from previous post:
"BALPA subscriptions are 0.5% of salary for the first year. For a Captain on £62k a year that is £310 per annum.
But 67% of BALPA subscriptions are tax deductible, so 67% of annual subscription, £207.70 gets added to your tax code; i.e. the amount you are allowed to earn before taxation starts.
That leaves an annual subscription of £102.30, or £8.53 a month."
IPA/IPF membership is: £12 to join, £6 monthly thereafter. 12 x £6 = £72 + £12 joining fee = £84. £84 / 12 = £7 a month IPA/IPF membership.
To my knowledge the IPA/F are not recognised by the Revenue as a trade union therefore not eligible for tax relief on membership fees.
BALPA membership is £1.53 more per month than the IPA/F, less than one sector payment. What is all this twaddle about BALPA being too expensive
"BALPA subscriptions are 0.5% of salary for the first year. For a Captain on £62k a year that is £310 per annum.
But 67% of BALPA subscriptions are tax deductible, so 67% of annual subscription, £207.70 gets added to your tax code; i.e. the amount you are allowed to earn before taxation starts.
That leaves an annual subscription of £102.30, or £8.53 a month."
IPA/IPF membership is: £12 to join, £6 monthly thereafter. 12 x £6 = £72 + £12 joining fee = £84. £84 / 12 = £7 a month IPA/IPF membership.
To my knowledge the IPA/F are not recognised by the Revenue as a trade union therefore not eligible for tax relief on membership fees.
BALPA membership is £1.53 more per month than the IPA/F, less than one sector payment. What is all this twaddle about BALPA being too expensive
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Not quite, Maat.
Sub of £310, tax relief of 40% on 67% of it:
310 - (310 x .67 x .4) = 227 = £19 pm, £38 pm in year 2 onwards
For a F/O on say £36000:
180 - (180 x .67 x .22) = 132 = £11 pm, £22 pm in year 2 onwards
Cheaper than most of us might have thought, I would agree.
Sub of £310, tax relief of 40% on 67% of it:
310 - (310 x .67 x .4) = 227 = £19 pm, £38 pm in year 2 onwards
For a F/O on say £36000:
180 - (180 x .67 x .22) = 132 = £11 pm, £22 pm in year 2 onwards
Cheaper than most of us might have thought, I would agree.
. Better T + C s than yo lat of pros 
. Wheres tha Beer n Butties Harold 
! me Yorkie gettin saft
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Itsonthebox, brilliant! This thread needs a bit of light relief.
Cargo Boy,
I think it IS relevant. Pilots who are part of an established structure where 100% BALPA is the norm cannot understand why it is so difficult for the rest of us to get there.
But it is difficult, very. Ask an original 1980's VS guy how long it took for BALPA to get a real grip. From Virgin's start, my guess is 10 years plus. You've arrived with it all set up for you.
Once you've got the membership, the biggest headache is actually convincing management that the union is the expected medium for communication - and that's even without the personalities at Jet2.
Originally Posted by cargo boy
.........where I currently earn my living is irrelevant but as you were asking, yes, the Caribbean this time of year is very nice thank you and being in a company that has almost total Balpa membership has its benefits.
I think it IS relevant. Pilots who are part of an established structure where 100% BALPA is the norm cannot understand why it is so difficult for the rest of us to get there.
But it is difficult, very. Ask an original 1980's VS guy how long it took for BALPA to get a real grip. From Virgin's start, my guess is 10 years plus. You've arrived with it all set up for you.
Once you've got the membership, the biggest headache is actually convincing management that the union is the expected medium for communication - and that's even without the personalities at Jet2.
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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pilothouse, I can assure you that I speak from experience. Having worked for a company that didn't have recognition but subsequently merged with one that did and eventually organised itself to one where the IPF were 'imposed' on us and had a joint representative council (just ask Silverhawk) to my current airline which has some of the best T's & C's thanks to the pilot workforce getting their act together and realising that only by having a high membership of the only union that has experience in representing pilots.
No one said it would be easy to galvanise your colleagues into agreeing to be represented by Balpa, especially considering the backgrounds of most of them and the lack of experience of many with other airlines. However, to read on here the suggestions that anyone other than Balpa would be able to do a better job or, even worse, being represented as part of the whole workforce, however utopian you may think that is, just grates and shows how easy it is for your management to have you all running around like headless chickens.
Those who are complaining about the cost of Balpa membership and arguing about, at most, a couple of quid a month difference, fail to realise that the benefits of having powerful representation more than offset that difference. You only have to see how the Ryanair pilots have faired since they had exactly the same arguments that are being bandied about in this thread a few years ago.
Even if you do manage to persuade your colleagues to get their acts together and all join the same union, preferably the only one with experience in representing pilots, you will still need to elect from amongst the membership a company council who will be prepared to fight your corner. Not an easy task in itself but knowing people like Silverhawk and others there, I'm sure they'd be prepared to make the effort and with the professional support and training they can get from Balpa itself, would eventually make a difference.
What you don't want is a fractured workforce with a few here and a few there members of different unions and you most certainly don't want to have to negotiate your terms and conditions with cabin crew and office staff as they have different aspirations. Don't forget that pilots are considered as middle management in most companies. You have put in a huge amount of effort and money to get your licence and to remain current. You are expected to take responsibility for hundreds of lives and millions of pounds of equipment every day. That responsibility is not given to just anyone and unless you realise that, putting yourself forward as part of the wider company employee group which includes less skilled, trained and most importantly - checked individuals just demeans your status. Unless... you want to accept that the lowest common denominator will prevail in any discussions you get with your management.
Get your priorities right. Work towards getting the majority of your fellow pilots to join the only union that can represent you in your specialised area. Stop harping on about the cost. As has been pointed out it is less than many think and even then it is more than offset once you get recognition and a decent deal.
Whilst I may be preaching to deaf ears, you only have to see what is happening at easyJet. They have been continually shafted over the years as they were unable to get themselves organised using precisely the same arguments that you see in this thread. The same happened at Virgin. It was only after continuous shafting of a divided workforce that the light was seen and the pilots finally got their act together. A large majority joined the only union that has experience representing pilots and finally elected a company council, who, with the backing of trained Balpa negotiators, were able to negotiate a decent settlement and acceptable T's & C's.
If you can't see how it works or you can't persuade your colleagues how it works then you will just be exactly where you are today, divided and undervalued. If it takes 10 years then that's how long it takes but at least you've got modern communications and the internet to get your message across so use it and start convincing the waiverers.
No one said it would be easy to galvanise your colleagues into agreeing to be represented by Balpa, especially considering the backgrounds of most of them and the lack of experience of many with other airlines. However, to read on here the suggestions that anyone other than Balpa would be able to do a better job or, even worse, being represented as part of the whole workforce, however utopian you may think that is, just grates and shows how easy it is for your management to have you all running around like headless chickens.
Those who are complaining about the cost of Balpa membership and arguing about, at most, a couple of quid a month difference, fail to realise that the benefits of having powerful representation more than offset that difference. You only have to see how the Ryanair pilots have faired since they had exactly the same arguments that are being bandied about in this thread a few years ago.
Even if you do manage to persuade your colleagues to get their acts together and all join the same union, preferably the only one with experience in representing pilots, you will still need to elect from amongst the membership a company council who will be prepared to fight your corner. Not an easy task in itself but knowing people like Silverhawk and others there, I'm sure they'd be prepared to make the effort and with the professional support and training they can get from Balpa itself, would eventually make a difference.
What you don't want is a fractured workforce with a few here and a few there members of different unions and you most certainly don't want to have to negotiate your terms and conditions with cabin crew and office staff as they have different aspirations. Don't forget that pilots are considered as middle management in most companies. You have put in a huge amount of effort and money to get your licence and to remain current. You are expected to take responsibility for hundreds of lives and millions of pounds of equipment every day. That responsibility is not given to just anyone and unless you realise that, putting yourself forward as part of the wider company employee group which includes less skilled, trained and most importantly - checked individuals just demeans your status. Unless... you want to accept that the lowest common denominator will prevail in any discussions you get with your management.
Get your priorities right. Work towards getting the majority of your fellow pilots to join the only union that can represent you in your specialised area. Stop harping on about the cost. As has been pointed out it is less than many think and even then it is more than offset once you get recognition and a decent deal.
Whilst I may be preaching to deaf ears, you only have to see what is happening at easyJet. They have been continually shafted over the years as they were unable to get themselves organised using precisely the same arguments that you see in this thread. The same happened at Virgin. It was only after continuous shafting of a divided workforce that the light was seen and the pilots finally got their act together. A large majority joined the only union that has experience representing pilots and finally elected a company council, who, with the backing of trained Balpa negotiators, were able to negotiate a decent settlement and acceptable T's & C's.
If you can't see how it works or you can't persuade your colleagues how it works then you will just be exactly where you are today, divided and undervalued. If it takes 10 years then that's how long it takes but at least you've got modern communications and the internet to get your message across so use it and start convincing the waiverers.
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Your correct pilothouse, I just checked.
Cargo boy is spot on though. But we might have to wait longer than 10 years.
Virgin only took experienced pilots with industry experience; it didn’t take the workforce that long to realise that despite Dickey’s charm, wit and charisma they were the lowest paid long haul pilots. No big deal in the early days; three trips a month on the classic, garden party at the boss’s house etc. Nice place to work but not massive money.
Easy to a lesser extent, but they still took relatively experienced pilots who had seen something of airline life before. The attraction to a lot I’m sure was no night flying & home every night. It might have been worth a pay drop compared to charter airlines; the work was nicer.
And I suppose that is where we at Jet2 are now. As pilothouse as pointed out before, it’s not a bad place to work particularly in MAN. Hardly any 4 sector days, decent rosters, crewing and Rostering that go out of their way to help. It’s OK.
But where I think we are different is; we take Captains and FO’s who just don’t have the experience of the industry. We do have some FO’s who have worked in commuter type airlines or in other jet airlines, but for many Channex/Jet2 is their first airline and they know nothing else. They have no experience of BALPA representation and possibly assume Arthur Scargill is a principal negotiator for BALPA. Plus to be fair, many have just paid for their pilots licence and then the type rating; they are on the breadline, some with £100K debts. They can’t afford BALPA.
It’s a similar situation with Captain’s. We do have Capts who do have similar type experience somewhere else, but all that stopped in 2003 and since then we have mainly direct entry RAF Captains new to airlines, Captains with only commuter airline experience on B146, EMB 145, ERJ etc; those promoted from within Channex for whom Jet2 remains their first airline. The point being none of them come from a background where they have experienced the benefits of BALPA representation. It’s an easy workforce to walk all over.
Please don’t think I am making negative comments about pilots of certain backgrounds ability, abilty varies as with any other airline. Also, we have some industry veterans; they are here because of the lifestyle Jet2 offers, for the moment.
So for now we carry on as normal, having a reasonable life. But it wont last, any more than it lasted in VS or EZY. I think the difference is our workforce will be slower to realise this and they might just carry on being shafted and accept it, as they did in their previous lives. It’s surprising really, as stated elsewhere on this thread, we have several examples of how pilots have been shafted before. The F27 fleet disposal and the Airbus fleet disposal are examples. The Airbus pilots already have BALPA to thank. They would have been made redundant when the A300 went, then would have had to re-apply for their jobs and pay for the type rating on B737/757 and would not have been paid during the type rating course. Head Of Legal Service BALPA intervened and the bus pilots were transferred to other fleets. Would the T & G or IPA/IPF achieved this?
Cargo boy is spot on though. But we might have to wait longer than 10 years.
Virgin only took experienced pilots with industry experience; it didn’t take the workforce that long to realise that despite Dickey’s charm, wit and charisma they were the lowest paid long haul pilots. No big deal in the early days; three trips a month on the classic, garden party at the boss’s house etc. Nice place to work but not massive money.
Easy to a lesser extent, but they still took relatively experienced pilots who had seen something of airline life before. The attraction to a lot I’m sure was no night flying & home every night. It might have been worth a pay drop compared to charter airlines; the work was nicer.
And I suppose that is where we at Jet2 are now. As pilothouse as pointed out before, it’s not a bad place to work particularly in MAN. Hardly any 4 sector days, decent rosters, crewing and Rostering that go out of their way to help. It’s OK.
But where I think we are different is; we take Captains and FO’s who just don’t have the experience of the industry. We do have some FO’s who have worked in commuter type airlines or in other jet airlines, but for many Channex/Jet2 is their first airline and they know nothing else. They have no experience of BALPA representation and possibly assume Arthur Scargill is a principal negotiator for BALPA. Plus to be fair, many have just paid for their pilots licence and then the type rating; they are on the breadline, some with £100K debts. They can’t afford BALPA.
It’s a similar situation with Captain’s. We do have Capts who do have similar type experience somewhere else, but all that stopped in 2003 and since then we have mainly direct entry RAF Captains new to airlines, Captains with only commuter airline experience on B146, EMB 145, ERJ etc; those promoted from within Channex for whom Jet2 remains their first airline. The point being none of them come from a background where they have experienced the benefits of BALPA representation. It’s an easy workforce to walk all over.
Please don’t think I am making negative comments about pilots of certain backgrounds ability, abilty varies as with any other airline. Also, we have some industry veterans; they are here because of the lifestyle Jet2 offers, for the moment.
So for now we carry on as normal, having a reasonable life. But it wont last, any more than it lasted in VS or EZY. I think the difference is our workforce will be slower to realise this and they might just carry on being shafted and accept it, as they did in their previous lives. It’s surprising really, as stated elsewhere on this thread, we have several examples of how pilots have been shafted before. The F27 fleet disposal and the Airbus fleet disposal are examples. The Airbus pilots already have BALPA to thank. They would have been made redundant when the A300 went, then would have had to re-apply for their jobs and pay for the type rating on B737/757 and would not have been paid during the type rating course. Head Of Legal Service BALPA intervened and the bus pilots were transferred to other fleets. Would the T & G or IPA/IPF achieved this?
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Excellent post, Maat.
Cargo boy, I don't think we'll be spread amongst several unions. It'll either be all of us in the wrong union, or not enough of us in the right one and the rest in no union at all.
Cargo boy, I don't think we'll be spread amongst several unions. It'll either be all of us in the wrong union, or not enough of us in the right one and the rest in no union at all.
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Unions
For my two peneth worth, I would love to join a union but I don't want to join the wrong one. I think it is silly for me to cough for a union not knowing where everyone else will go. BAsically we need to set out a 'who where and when' scenario for everyone involved. Perhaps MAN BLK can PM all that responded to his survey so we have a good idea what to do with our union subs and when we need to do it.
Not particularly elloquent but I think you get the gist
Box
Not particularly elloquent but I think you get the gist
Box
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Sorry, not enough response to indicate.
Perhaps there is light at the end of the tunnel. Couldn't help but notice this post by "Al E.Vator" on another thread:
---------------------
Scuse me.....don't work for you chappies but:
Given the following, wouldn't it be a very silly airline manager that p1ssed his aircrew off too much:
Emirates: by many accounts about to meltdown. Not enough pilots (recruiting is only replacing those who leave). Pilots at max hours and leave cancelled etc. Currently not increasing pay and conditions but watch this space. 1 aircraft per minute for the next 100 years or whatever they are getting. I believe there were not enough 'traditional' Euro-type pilots so they turned to India & Philippines, but...
India: Already melting down. Not enough pilots. Something like 4000 qualified captains needed in the next 2 years? Check out the ever-improving contracts there.
Philippines: Major problems, so many pilots leaving that they are having trouble manning flights. Not enough pilots.
Japan: Some of the better paying pilot positions (for the present, will only get better) but even then, major problems creeping up. Something like 40% of the ANA and JAL pilot group must leave due age over the next 3 years. There just aren't the replacements. Not enough pilots.
Asia Generally: Cathay need 200+ pilots per year. Singapore need many as well. Mainland China is booming and can only train 400 pilots annually when over 2000 are required. Korean, China Airlines, Eva and Asiana all have major replacement/expansion plans and simply too few pilots for this. Not enough pilots.
Qatar/Etihad etc: What will they do? they have Not enough pilots.
The answer is of course they will all have to offer the option of workable bases in home countries for expat pilots, better money and sensible rostering. Whoever doesn't will have parked airframes costing lost of $$$$ and it will be their own fault.
Flying schools just aren't producing the numbers they have historically and airforces have downsized and also don't lose the numbers of pilots they once did.
It is therefore a brave (suggest very stupid) manager who choses this time to belittle his pilots (as a certain Ryanair personality choses to) or degrade their work conditions, particularly if this is done by stealth via Trojan Horse 5/4 plans etc.
Anybody remember Frank Lorenzo? He didn't do much good shall we say for Eastern. May I suggest that whilst this Ryanair person has done much to build the airline as a business, his 'use em up and spit em out after 5 years' career path for pilots has a finite timespan and any further stupidity would only hasten Ryanair's already major crewing problems. That wouln't be good for business.
----------------------------
Perhaps there is light at the end of the tunnel. Couldn't help but notice this post by "Al E.Vator" on another thread:
---------------------
Scuse me.....don't work for you chappies but:
Given the following, wouldn't it be a very silly airline manager that p1ssed his aircrew off too much:
Emirates: by many accounts about to meltdown. Not enough pilots (recruiting is only replacing those who leave). Pilots at max hours and leave cancelled etc. Currently not increasing pay and conditions but watch this space. 1 aircraft per minute for the next 100 years or whatever they are getting. I believe there were not enough 'traditional' Euro-type pilots so they turned to India & Philippines, but...
India: Already melting down. Not enough pilots. Something like 4000 qualified captains needed in the next 2 years? Check out the ever-improving contracts there.
Philippines: Major problems, so many pilots leaving that they are having trouble manning flights. Not enough pilots.
Japan: Some of the better paying pilot positions (for the present, will only get better) but even then, major problems creeping up. Something like 40% of the ANA and JAL pilot group must leave due age over the next 3 years. There just aren't the replacements. Not enough pilots.
Asia Generally: Cathay need 200+ pilots per year. Singapore need many as well. Mainland China is booming and can only train 400 pilots annually when over 2000 are required. Korean, China Airlines, Eva and Asiana all have major replacement/expansion plans and simply too few pilots for this. Not enough pilots.
Qatar/Etihad etc: What will they do? they have Not enough pilots.
The answer is of course they will all have to offer the option of workable bases in home countries for expat pilots, better money and sensible rostering. Whoever doesn't will have parked airframes costing lost of $$$$ and it will be their own fault.
Flying schools just aren't producing the numbers they have historically and airforces have downsized and also don't lose the numbers of pilots they once did.
It is therefore a brave (suggest very stupid) manager who choses this time to belittle his pilots (as a certain Ryanair personality choses to) or degrade their work conditions, particularly if this is done by stealth via Trojan Horse 5/4 plans etc.
Anybody remember Frank Lorenzo? He didn't do much good shall we say for Eastern. May I suggest that whilst this Ryanair person has done much to build the airline as a business, his 'use em up and spit em out after 5 years' career path for pilots has a finite timespan and any further stupidity would only hasten Ryanair's already major crewing problems. That wouln't be good for business.
----------------------------